The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE LAST DAY! 1st September 2014

sloth · Sep 2, 2014

xtrac said:
Okay so he hasn't said in a statement last year that the Stadium is a separate issue and wouldn't effect are ability to buy players in the transfer market now or in the future, I must of misread that then.

Can you quote the exact statement you're referring to?

sloth · Sep 2, 2014

dagraham said:
One question I've raised and not really had any answer to is why we didn't increase our bid once we knew we were not signing MM. Unless every single media source and ITK were wrong, we had sanctioned bids for MM and MS totalling around £35m. So unless they were a joke, it's safe to say we could afford it. We then signed Fazio for about £10m less, so why wasn't some of the money not then redirected to making a larger bid for MS.

Obviously this may have been done out of the glare of the media, but again all indications are that we didn't even attempt to meet Southampton halfway. If we had and they said £27m or nothing I could understand, but it seems we were just too stubborn and expected them to cave in.

If a painting, or a piece of furniture, a car or whatever the investment is, is deemed to be worth, for example £15m, should you suddenly pay £20m for it because more finance has become available?

Although value is subjective it is also absolute in that it doesn't vary depending on how much cash you have. I think you're mistaking affordability for value, so that the scenario you imagine is that we'd buy MS if only we could afford him.

St José Dominguez · Sep 2, 2014

I've seen so many people use the recycled we've gone from expensive player X to cheap option Y intertwined with what does Baldini actually do. Well he's signed a player in Stambouli for less than a quarter of price of Schneiderlin who I believe will turn out to be just as good if not better and who's a title winner. Fazio and Mussachio I can't really comment much on as not seen a great deal but same could be said and I did see him in Europa league final which his team won and I thought he was fantastic in that game.
It feels sometimes that rather than the club focusing on scouting and bringing in players for specific positions there's an obsession with spending more money on a specific player. We could have solved LB, CB, CM as well as back up RB and GK this summer but sometimes I think people would've been more happy if we'd forgotten half that and bought a 30m ST which would've left massive gaps at back. Besides fact we bought a big money ST last year, someone I pretty happy that we've given another chance to.

Locotoro · Sep 2, 2014

sloth said:
If a painting, or a piece of furniture, a car or whatever the investment is, is deemed to be worth, for example £15m, should you suddenly pay £20m for it because more finance has become available?

Although value is subjective it is also absolute in that it doesn't vary depending on how much cash you have. I think you're mistaking affordability for value, so that the scenario you imagine is that we'd buy MS if only we could afford him.

Very succinctly put

xtrac · Sep 2, 2014

sloth said:
Can you quote the exact statement you're referring to?

If I can find it yeah of course, I'll have a search later (y)

shouldn't be to hard to find

Everlasting Seconds · Sep 2, 2014

sloth said:
If a painting, or a piece of furniture, a car or whatever the investment is, is deemed to be worth, for example £15m, should you suddenly pay £20m for it because more finance has become available?

Although value is subjective it is also absolute in that it doesn't vary depending on how much cash you have. I think you're mistaking affordability for value, so that the scenario you imagine is that we'd buy MS if only we could afford him.

OK, yes. But that is about your own wallet. However, if someone you like, or someone you visit at their home, spend a few millions more than they hoped on a painting, with their own money, and you get to be in the presence of this (expensive) acquisition, do you feel the need to be upset because of the price tag?

Going one step further; if you visit one of the greatest galleries in the world. Maybe you have to pay to enter. Say, Uffizi in Florence, or National Gallery in London (albeit free) OK? Do you even care what the paintings cost? Or about the price of a potential new "signing"?

Ultimately, you visit Louvre, OK? And you must pay to enter. Goes without saying. Louvre boasts a fine collection. Masterpiece after masterpiece. You fail to notice the paintings of Caravaggio all together. Why? Because what attracts your attention, is their star signing. Their absolute best. In fact, you notice, all of you are there, to marvel at this one very, very expensive and famous piece. You paid to get in, and you expected to see only the best for your entrance ticket.

dagraham · Sep 2, 2014

sloth said:
If a painting, or a piece of furniture, a car or whatever the investment is, is deemed to be worth, for example £15m, should you suddenly pay £20m for it because more finance has become available?

Although value is subjective it is also absolute in that it doesn't vary depending on how much cash you have. I think you're mistaking affordability for value, so that the scenario you imagine is that we'd buy MS if only we could afford him.

Yes value is absolute and has no bearing on how much cash you have, but as you say, value is subjective. What something is worth to somebody or a business is not always an indicator of true fair value.

Are you suggesting that a business never buys an asset at above market value?

Gary Mabbutts Mask · Sep 2, 2014

Small update from JJ, his responses in ~~red~~ non readable away jersey yellow:

The original JJetset‏@jetsetyidProtected Tweets 7h
@dan_raven89 big improvement on where we were,now we build a team from a committed squad & coaching team.We won't & can't spend silly money!

@jetsetyid@dan_raven89 I still think if he does well levy will back him with jrod mm and ms in jan window or next summer maybe am I right?

The original JJetset‏@jetsetyidProtected Tweets
@steve_singh420 @dan_raven89 I hope so

On Welbeck:
paddyj1‏@paddyj24h
@jetsetyid what happened with Wellbeck mate? Did we not want the perm deal?

The original JJetset‏@jetsetyidProtected Tweets
@paddyj2 not really he wanted Arsenal with big wages

Edit: blame @coopsieyid if you can't read the yellow! Home jersey white was worse...

yido_number1 · Sep 2, 2014

SpursDave88 said:
Two points in response.

1. Fazio was made captain this season, after Sevilla's two best players, Rakitic the captain and Moreno were sold.

2. We both know that's a nonsense argument, Liverpool finished above Arsenal, would you rather have Koscielny and Mertesacker or Toure and Skrtel?

Well seeing as Toure didn't start for Liverpool last year I would of taken Agger or Skjertel as they proved a more effective unit to help liverpool get points and also were a part of the team that trashed Arsenal 5-1.

Last year I avoided SC for a couple of days after the window as it turns into dawn of the dead every year. You seem to be part of the knee jerk brigade saying that MM is better than FF because he costs more and because you saw a clip on you tube where he played well against Barcelona and you've only seen FF punch Costa so he's rubbish.

Calm down, maybe wait till later in the season when you have seen who we've signed first hand before slating are business. A lot of the more sensible posters on here are saying chill out and give it time, they cant all be wrong.

Gedson100 · Sep 2, 2014

Locotoro said:
Once he learns the English language I wouldnt be surprised to see him go on to be vice-captain and eventually our captain as he really has the determination and drive and he is also appeared to be very vocal in those matches i saw.

I think he will turn out to be a better option than Scheneiderlin and one of our best signings of the Poch era.

Check the interview out: his English is really good, despite this he apologises and promises to improve it quickly!

SpursDave88 · Sep 2, 2014

yido_number1 said:
Well seeing as Toure didn't start for Liverpool last year I would of taken Agger or Skjertel as they proved a more effective unit to help liverpool get points and also were a part of the team that trashed Arsenal 5-1.

Last year I avoided SC for a couple of days after the window as it turns into dawn of the dead every year. You seem to be part of the knee jerk brigade saying that MM is better than FF because he costs more and because you saw a clip on you tube where he played well against Barcelona and you've only seen FF punch Costa so he's rubbish.

Calm down, maybe wait till later in the season when you have seen who we've signed first hand before slating are business. A lot of the more sensible posters on here are saying chill out and give it time, they cant all be wrong.

Bollocks, sorry. Toure did start for Liverpool last year, and if Agger is so good why has he gone back to Bromby? Both Kos and Mert are far superior players to Liverpool's CBs, ably demonstrating that just because one player plays for a team that finished higher, that doesn't make him better.

I say that MM must be better, because in trusting Poch's judgement, he obviously felt we were better off spending 20m on MM than 8m on FF. Hence we bid for MM....if they were of roughly equal ability, we would never have bid for MM in the first place, we would have just signed Fazio...surely

CoopsieDeadpool · Sep 2, 2014

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
I know alot of you had your knives out ready for Levy as soon as we didn't sign X, Y or Z but I think the most important piece of ITK came from Trix last night. He said Poch was happy with the squad, thought that Schneiderlin was overpriced at the £27m Saints were asking, he also had a say in all our signings and wanted to wait for Rodriguez in Jan rather than sign Welbeck.

So surely this is all that matters? That the manager and chairman are on the same page?

Yeah right. As if the facts matter to the people your post is really addressing

SpartanSpur · Sep 2, 2014

sloth said:
If a painting, or a piece of furniture, a car or whatever the investment is, is deemed to be worth, for example £15m, should you suddenly pay £20m for it because more finance has become available?

Although value is subjective it is also absolute in that it doesn't vary depending on how much cash you have. I think you're mistaking affordability for value, so that the scenario you imagine is that we'd buy MS if only we could afford him.

Brings me back to the Mangala deal for City, and Di Maria/Mata deals for Utd. Neither team probably wanted to pay anywhere near that amount in a free market, but they knew what they wanted and decided to push through with the deal.

Musacchio and Schneiderlin looked to be perfect for our needs, which is refreshing after the Bale replacements.

The fact we hold sell on value as a key factor in every signing says exactly where we are as a club, and why numerous failed punts like Holtby, Sigurdsson and Fryers have to be dumped every window. It's an endless cycle of mediocrity, much of a muchness as an unpopular man once said. I will admit it does look like we may be moving away from this particular practice however. Holding to market value and considering sell-on is perfect as a general rule of practice, however I feel there needs to be less rigidity in certain special cases.

If we are convinced these players will be integral for a manager who is likely to stay, then they are worth an inflated fee, as they are either going to be giving us value on the pitch or an offer we can't refuse. Say we value him at £15-18m, yes spending £5-7m or so over the top- likely in instalments- isn't ideal (I'm still not having this £27m after seeing £30/£25m touted for Lallana/Lovren), and does appear silly, but if we are certain he becomes an integral player, and a saving is made on the wages, then it isn't such a horrendous idea IMHO. It's about putting faith in the transfer committee, something that I guess is somewhat difficult to do with the recent Soldado/Lamela transfers.

Note: I appreciate we are a very different beast to the above teams, and if Stambouli and Fazio do the business it will be a moot point, but I maintain my stance that they were second choice for a significant reason considering how much more affordable the deals were...

yido_number1 · Sep 2, 2014

SpursDave88 said:
Bollocks, sorry. Toure did start for Liverpool last year, and if Agger is so good why has he gone back to Bromby? Both Kos and Mert are far superior players to Liverpool's CBs, ably demonstrating that just because one player plays for a team that finished higher, that doesn't make him better.

I say that MM must be better, because in trusting Poch's judgement, he obviously felt we were better off spending 20m on MM than 8m on FF. Hence we bid for MM....if they were of roughly equal ability, we would never have bid for MM in the first place, we would have just signed Fazio...surely

We're splitting hairs and in the wrong thread but both Agger and toure made 20 league appearances. If that suits your agenda then stick to your story. Price doesnt make a player any better, in this case Fazio's release clause was less than MM's and we exercised it. Who's to say who will suit are side better I haven't watched either of them play so I'm not in a position to judge.

Either way Poch has a player he chose and we move forwards.

CoopsieDeadpool · Sep 2, 2014

SpursDave88 said:
Ben Davies or Ignacio Moreno? Similar fees I believe.

Do you mean Alberto Moreno? Anyway, Tottenham or CL playing Liverpoo? That is the choice the player would have had, if you're actually talking about the footballer, and not any of these unknown people on Google? https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ignacio+moreno

It's not all about the fee you know!!

jose · Sep 2, 2014

jair1970 said:
Check the interview out: his English is really good, despite this he apologises and promises to improve it quickly!

What a gent! Liking him already.

Hopeful he will become "our Schneiderlin".

Everlasting Seconds · Sep 2, 2014

dagraham said:
Yes value is absolute and has no bearing on how much cash you have, but as you say, value is subjective.

You hit the nail on it's expensive golden head, though. Because both those statements can't be true in absolute terms. Value is either absolute, or subjective. But not both. It goes without saying, the more money we have, the more are we willing to spend. And to suggest that the value we put on things is not related to the amount of cash we have is folly.

CoopsieDeadpool · Sep 2, 2014

Jonesywasbestever said:
Although I have been a Spurs fan for a very long time I was unaware that this forum existed until my son told me about it so this was my very first SC transfer window and I have had a great time reading the variety of comments made, so a big thanks to everybody who has brightened up the last few days.

There’s certainly more talent, passion and artistry on here than we had on the pitch last Saturday, conversely from some (you know who you are) there is as much crap as well. Thanks again. COYS

Not really saying much for the talent on this forum, considering there was no one on our pitch other than the groundsman last Saturday :whistle:

CoopsieDeadpool · Sep 2, 2014

kremlyn said:
Christ. Where do these monkeys come from? Suddenly on the final day of the window the forum comes alive with these doom-mongers and nay-sayers. All perspective lost because of what exactly? We didn't get a last minute wonder deal, but did we need one.
One thing was clear at the start of the window; the defense needed sorting. It had a complete overhaul with a new lb, cb, rb and rookie who has already become almost a cult figure. The only disappointment was not getting the moustache but hey, fazio is pretty decent and is certain to be an upgrade on Dawson..

I take it you don't go on the match threads then, Kremlyn? :whistle:

JUSTINSIGNAL · Sep 2, 2014

SpursDave88 said:
Bollocks, sorry. Toure did start for Liverpool last year, and if Agger is so good why has he gone back to Bromby? Both Kos and Mert are far superior players to Liverpool's CBs, ably demonstrating that just because one player plays for a team that finished higher, that doesn't make him better.

I say that MM must be better, because in trusting Poch's judgement, he obviously felt we were better off spending 20m on MM than 8m on FF. Hence we bid for MM....if they were of roughly equal ability, we would never have bid for MM in the first place, we would have just signed Fazio...surely

But Fazio was Poch's choice as well? I've read that from Ossie Ardilles and various ITKs.

If anything I can imagine the club would have been more happy to do the Mussachio deal as he is younger and would have a higher ceiling to improve and a bigger sell-on value.

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