Style of play

poc · Aug 18, 2019

JCRD said:
Im not one to usually start any kind of thread, I tend to tag onto any thread available but felt a tad compelled to start something on our style of play. This isnt a trigger happy post but a post based on whats happened over the last couple of years in terms of performances in the main.

When Poch first came and particularly at WHL we had a style of play an identity which I feel over the last couple of years has since disappeared. It could be as Poch calls it adaptation or perhaps it is evolving into something else but the question is "to what"?

We had a style of play that meant our full backs bombed forward supporting our attack, we played with intensity and purpose and that bought the best out of all our players - Kane, Dele, Eriksen, Dembele at the time etc. Now our play and tactics is such that it kinda makes our players look tired, lackadaisical, slow. Kane for example today had nothing, Eriksen was useless as were one or two others but i dont really blame them, I blame how we play and how we are set up. I dont think it is right that we have one of the best strikers in the world who was running around like a headless chicken searching for the football... and it isnt the first time.

So my question is has our actual play gone backwards, are we really getting the best out of our current players? Is Poch overthinking things eg the diamond formation or not playing our best formation and tactics to our strengths?

I appreciate it sounds ludicrous given how far we have come and how close we were last season to winning the CL.

Thank you for your time...

Great post, I think part of it has been kanes desire (rightly so) to protect himself a bit I mean early poch days Kane would chase everything hard which would have the knock on effect through the team. Our pressing then was on par with city and Liverpool now.

Ronwol196061 · Aug 18, 2019

JCRD said:
Im not one to usually start any kind of thread, I tend to tag onto any thread available but felt a tad compelled to start something on our style of play. This isnt a trigger happy post but a post based on whats happened over the last couple of years in terms of performances in the main.

When Poch first came and particularly at WHL we had a style of play an identity which I feel over the last couple of years has since disappeared. It could be as Poch calls it adaptation or perhaps it is evolving into something else but the question is "to what"?

We had a style of play that meant our full backs bombed forward supporting our attack, we played with intensity and purpose and that bought the best out of all our players - Kane, Dele, Eriksen, Dembele at the time etc. Now our play and tactics is such that it kinda makes our players look tired, lackadaisical, slow. Kane for example today had nothing, Eriksen was useless as were one or two others but i dont really blame them, I blame how we play and how we are set up. I dont think it is right that we have one of the best strikers in the world who was running around like a headless chicken searching for the football... and it isnt the first time.

So my question is has our actual play gone backwards, are we really getting the best out of our current players? Is Poch overthinking things eg the diamond formation or not playing our best formation and tactics to our strengths?

I appreciate it sounds ludicrous given how far we have come and how close we were last season to winning the CL.

Thank you for your time...

It's a bit early isn't it.
Up to the last game if the season we tended to play a different way,we got Ndombele and we are looking to change the paradigm.Ndombele can play defence but he is a great passer and a quick mover of the ball. It should mean we can get out on the front foot quickly and may more attacking.
Our first game was our first game and our second vrs City its almost impossible to dictate.We had to react
Also with Sissoko on the right side who brings the ball out well he doesnt have a great pass...well not that many.
If Lo Celso was the other side he could use his ball talent and speed if Ndombele got under pressure.
I'm hoping we fo change tactics.Im not a fan of tick tack footie as much as a bit more open footie. It takes time though to change

am_yisrael_chai · Aug 18, 2019

I agree with the OP and it is frustrating but to be fair to Poch the last 2 years have been de-stabilising, the time to judge him is after the first half of this season. I think his biggest challenges are:
1) Winks - can he consistently be an effective base pivot to our midfield. He has the talent but so far this season has been poor defensively eg the first goal yesterday and way too neutered going forward. He is effectively playing the Dembele role now and the jury is out on whether he can do this well enough.
2) Son / Moura consistency and compatability with Kane - on their day both Son and Moura are close to or at world class. The problem is that Moura in particular is inconsistent. The bigger problem is that both seem to play worse when Kane plays. Get peak Son and peak Moura to fire at the same time as a fit Kane and we have the best front 3 in the league, better in my opinion than City or Pool. So far though I’ve never seen the 3 of them on the pitch together all tearing it up at the same time.
3) Dele - can he transform his game in the way KdB has done under Pep to be effective further back.

Get these 3 key issues fixed and everything else falls into place. Don’t fix them and we are going to continue to look disjointed.

adamsky · Aug 18, 2019

People forget how important Dier was to our style of play during our best period under Poch. He had the tactical ability to drop into a back 3 which helped our full backs bomb forward. Dier’s drop in form and injury issues combined with a general move from 3 at the back has also meant we are looking for a new way to play. Liverpool & City have raised the bar.

Lighty64 · Aug 18, 2019

JCRD said:
The reason I started the thread wasnt because of yesterdays performance because we were playing City after all. But lets be honest first half against Villa and yesterdays actual set up and approach just didnt seem right. I wouldnt like to think our approach is to pass it around the back for a few passes then hoof it to no one as we did yesterday... the main reason for the 47% possession though.

As some have called it here, my post was merely a review or a question than panic or knee jerking over yesterdays performance. I think its wider than that and deeper than that and i think it is right to ask the question.

The question really arose because if I am asked the question what our identity or style of play is or how we would approach a game - i dont have a damn clue. I used to though.

Hopefully Poch now has the tools to play particularly when we get Son, Dele back

the thing is we had early chances v Villa, but wasn't clinical which meant once Villa took the lead in the 9th minute after we had already missed 2 chances, we were then playing against a team that made it more difficult.

when Poch had his 2nd season with us with us playing terrific football we went out of the Carling cup in the 3rd round, the FA Cup in the 5th round, and was playing the EL which we rotated massively in the groups, and got knocked out the 2nd KO round. didn't suffer too many injuries and not all our 1st team where playing internationals, and because a lot of friendly internationals where played, our involved players never played 90mins every game.

the following season we played in CL failed to get out the group, lost in the 1st round of the EL ko's, lost in the 4th round of the carling, and got to the semi's of the FA Cup without having to put our strongest team out in them. both seasons we didn't have as much disruption on injuries. the timing and the fixtures meant we could change our style and produce a full press that lasted the whole 90. since then we have had to play more fixtures every season, with a squad that used to only have 5 or 6 internationals to a team full of them that all got to the WC, and had 2 very tough groups in the CL so unable to rotate.

in that time over those 2 seasons we saw Klopp join Liverpool and bought players that fit his style, and Pepe joined City a team that had enough talent, but he has made them work like a clock as well as buying a lot of talent to go with what they already have.

while all that's happening our players are 4 years older, and hardly had a break in the last 2 seasons, been involved in a WC most of them getting to the final weekend, got to the CoC semi's and the final of the CL

edit: also the season we finished 3rd to Leicester and 2nd to Chelsea our opponents never used to defend so deep. the last 2 seasons we have seen it more and more that they are sticking 10 men behind the ball

greavesy461 · Aug 18, 2019

This is a good question that keeps coming up in different threads. I definitely think Poch has prioritised tactical flexibility over ensuring our team has a consistent style. That contrasts with Man City and Liverpool both of whom have a well drilled formation and style and rarely change.

Liverpool were very fortunate last year without any major injuries and Man City just have unbelievable depth so they were both able to put out the same formation and style every week.

I don’t know what our style should be but I don’t think we have the athletic full backs in the team anymore to play the way we used to so maybe it needs to be more robust defensively and less adventurous with both of the CM2 dropping back to pick the ball off our defenders and provide angles in midfield.

This could give the front 4 the freedom they need to press effectively (as someone else has said). At the moment there seems to be a big gap between defence and midfield with only the pivot of the midfield diamond (winks) dropping back. This doesn’t seem to be enough to beat the press. The fullbacks are also often too far up the field by this point leaving just the CBs passing to each other with winks. Inevitably this ends with a loss of possession or a long ball.

So still a 4-2-3-1 but with less adventurous full backs meaning the CM2 don’t need to be as defensive but ideally press resistant (Ndombele and Lo Celso).

Lloris
Foyth Vertonghen Alderweireld Davies
Ndombele Lo Celso
Son Eriksen/Alli Moura/Alli
Kane

Glad I’m not a manager!!!

Lighty64 · Aug 18, 2019

fishhhandaricecake said:
I’d say it’s a bad thing because klopp has got Liverpool to what 4/5 finals in charge of them and within 2 points of a title off Man City 98 points record total. Having a set system and squad to suit said system works. Sorry but Liverpool’s squad is no better than ours now and we are not currently flexible we are clueless. Poch is a good manager but klopp and pep are great ones who have a successful set way of playing which works and wins things.

Yes obviously we can’t compare to city’s resources but we can to Liverpool’s and he’s rebuilt their team and squad far better than poch has ours, sorry but that’s the absolute truth.

Once the summer window closes poch needs to work out our new identity and get us playing that way week in week out with an occasional plan B if needed.

it was a record points total for 2nd, Man C got 100pts the previous season.

since Poch has been with us we have made 2 finals and 3 semi finals, and Klopp has lost in 4 of them

he has also spent near on ½ billion more before this summer to do it

Everlasting Seconds · Aug 18, 2019

Main problem to our style of play is, we almost never have our 11 best players assembled at the same time, all very fresh, fully match fit and none patching over an injury/playing through pain.
A hypothetical fully 100% match fit and in-form squad would have solved most of the issues commented on in this thread.

dontcallme · Aug 18, 2019

dagraham said:
Have we really though?

The OP was referring to performances over the last 18-24 months or so and I can’t help but agree. I look back at the team with Rose, Walker and Dembele and Wanyama, with Kane as the focal point and Son, Eriksen, Alli etc interchanging behind him and it’s a far cry from how we’ve been playing since.

Now of course the obvious thing is a fair few of those players aren’t here anymore and injury has curtailed Rose and finished Wanyama, but some of that is down to us. We took too long to replace Dembele and sold Walker and didn’t replace him adequately.

And yes the end of that season I’m referring to coincides with the move from WHL and the wait for the new stadium, so there are mitigating factors.

But the bottom line is that we are going backwards in terms of performances. Kane is continually dropping deep to collect the ball, the width we had from out fullbacks has been blunted, we don’t collectively press as effectively, look miles less secure at the back and often pedestrian in attack.

Of course teams have to evolve and we need to give Poch a little time to integrate the new players, but despite maintaining our position in the top four in the last couple of years I find myself far less confident when beginning to watch games.

Two particular things which concern me that cannot imo be attributed to mitigating circumstances and which can only be attributed to Poch are :

Why do we start games so badly? It’s a good thing if Poch can tweak things at HT and improve us in the 2nd half, but when it becomes the norm rather than an occasional thing you have to ask the question why have we set up so badly in the first place?

I wouldn’t mind if it was just a case of starting slowly, knocking around and being patient whilst being in control. It isn’t that though. We’ve been starting slowly for ages and usually go a goal down, often lucky to avoid more and looking lethargic and lacking ideas.

The other thing is I’m sometimes left scratching my head as to what we are trying to do in a game. Yesterday being an example.

Nobody expected us to dominate City. I didn’t even expect us to trade blows with them. They are simply on a different level. I did expect us at least to have a game plan to compete. Yeah I know we got a point, but we were battered for the majority of the game.

Fair enough we can’t go toe to toe with them, but then surely we must counter attack them? And yet we leave the only player available to do that on the bench. In the end we really did nothing other than wait to be beaten ( and again yes I know we got a point, but it was gooner levels of jammyness ).

We have continued to finish top four and done better in the cups.

If you want to put that down to jamminess you are a moron.

gavspur · Aug 18, 2019

I think 4-3-2-1 is the system that best suits the players we have, giving us numerous options from the bench in like for like replacements.

Having Dier anchor the midfield would be a big stabilising influence on the pitch for us. With Ndombele and Lo Celso just ahead. That gives us Wanyama/Skipp for the Dier role, any of Winks/Sissoko/Eriksen/Dele for the other two CM spots. Kane up top, with a choice of Moura/Lamela/Son/Dele/Eriksen/Lo Celso/Sess possibly for the two spots behind him. Also have Sess who can play or cover LB, and I think KWP will come good at RB.

There are plenty of options within that formation, and I agree what others have said with regards to nailing a system down, I guess the main thing is to see who we still have once the European window shuts.

Lighty64 · Aug 18, 2019

fishhhandaricecake said:
I didn’t use two matches I’ve used 5 seasons mate. They’ve got to 5 cup finals, ran city within a point of the title 98 points and beat us in the CL final so not knee jerk at all, it’s just that so far the first 2 matches are not giving too much hope that poch knows our best team and formation etc which certainly won’t help with us achieving better consistency in the league again.

And as I said in my other post I do agree let’s see where we are at in Oct/Nov once summer window is shut for Europe and new players have settled in sure that will make a difference. And let’s see When we play city in the home fixtures if we get completely outplayed to a similar extnent again then that will be worrying.

The issue is though Eriksen is likely to leave so lo celso is just a like for like for him, sure we need son and dele back but poch needs to work out better ways of playing without 1-2 big attacking players, all top teams have injuries etc, city and lpool replace like for like, you just use excuses like oh wait until x z y are back and up to speed etc, no more excuses. I’m not saying we had to win yesterday but the extent we got dominated was embarrassing 30 shots to 2! We are supposedly the 3rd best team in the league not a bloody league one side hanging on for dear life.

last season (league fixtures in brackets)

Allison (38) played in the WC went home a week early

Robertson (36) never had a WC

TAA (29) was with the WC squad, might of played 1 max 2 games

VvD (38) never had a WC

they used Lovern, Matip, and Gomez as a pairing for CH with VvD

there midfield they rotated 5 players with them using them between 25-32 starts but wasn't due to any long term injuries

Salah (38) started every league game, had the majority of the summer off, didn't join up with Eygpt due to his shoulder until they played a total of 3 WC matches, and never played in any of their friendlies during the season or if he did he never before the CL final

Firmino (34) started all but 4 games didn't have much of a break, but didn't start all of Brazils WC matches and came home early enough to get a 3 week break

Mane (37) started all but 1, and like Salah only played 3 WC matches so had 4 weeks off

so a pretty settled squad where their best XI started a match over 30 times during the season

please tell me which 1 of our front 3 played that many, Eriksen started the most out games with 35

Kane (28) played to the final weekend of the WC, also played 4 top level English matches during the season plus other friendlies

Son (31) played the 1st KO of the world cup plus 2 Asian tournaments

Dele (25) picked up an injury in the WC but was still involved to the last weekend, missed 13 games because of injury and was still involved with England.

we reached the semi's of the CoC, Liverpool went out in the 3rd round, we went out in the 4th round of the FA Cup Liverpool the 3rd.

Oh and just to let you know last season after Liverpool spending over 200m (I'm including VvD) to strengthen it was the 1st time Klopp had finished above Poch

Lilbaz · Aug 18, 2019

.

Locotoro said:
There's a few comments I'd make about the conclusions being made here.

Pochs tactics against City:
It was clear the way we played against City was not the way we would play against any other team in the league because of City's dominance in ability and style. Poch played 4 CM across middle and tried to stifle City's ability to play through the midfield with the hope that KWP and rose could keep up with their wing attacks and cut backs. It worked to an extent but it also allowed us to make progress centrally when we won the ball back up the pitch on the rare occasion. The game plan was sound except Sissoko and Eriksen were not breaking with enough pace (or space). Yes we were lucky to get the draw but the game plan helped that.

Our lost press:
This is something I've wondered about for a long time and I initially thought it was related to injuries and the lack of consistency in the team as a result but I suspect that it has a lot to do with our missing midfield Maestro, Dembele. The effectiveness of our press has always been linked to an on form and fit Dembele. He gives the platform for Kane, Eriksen and Alli to hunt the ball down because he provided such strength and control in the middle that those ahead of him felt they could vacate their positions without risk that they wouldn't be covered. Specifically this has had a big effect on Eriksen as Dembele used to create so much space for him by drawing players in like a black hole. Eriksen could operate between the lanes with more space than he does now since we tend to play the ball more in front of the opposition.
The another obvious reason is the loss of pace from our fullback areas. Walker and Rose in full form would be closer to our midfield than defence and that created better defensive solidarity when playing the high line almost up on the half way line. The long ball that we'd force through pressure would end up heading towards Rose Walker Dembele and Dier with two more defenders behind. I don't believe we have the players to replicate this way of playing again. KWP may grow into those shoes that KW left behind but Ndombele is not that type of player that can draw opposition in. Yes he can dribble and break past players but it's more of a direct counter attack style rather than Dembeles slow the ball down allow the midfield to empty, ghost past them and give it to Eriksen who can release one of the other 3 at the front.

Natural evolution:
The move to a diamond seems the natural progression. We saw it when Mourinho was trying to evolve his first Chelsea team. No Robben, no Duff, no flying wingers to get ahead of Drogba but a lot of good CMs to crowbar into the team and more defensive fullbacks like Ivanovic and it worked because Lampard would get 20 goals from midfield. Poch moving to a diamond is the same except our attacking midfielder (Alli) hasn't been on form for a while. I hope now with Ndombele and GLC, Alli can go back to the #10 role and act as a second striker with 2 of Eriksen, Son or Lucas either side in a front 4 instead. The problem with our diamond is our holding midfielders (Dier and Wanyama) are also so far from being on form that they become a gaping weakness. So we play Winks there but he likes to get forward and he's not someone comfortable playing as a third CB.
I think we'll see more of the 4231 we used to see or closer to a 4222 with some rotation from the front but the problems will persist because we've not resolved them.

The loss of the press was (for me) partly down to moving away from whl. Whl had a short pitch 5m shorter than wembley.
The extra length made it easier for counter attacking teams. It is also partly why we went for sanchez who has more pace.

dagraham · Aug 19, 2019

dontcallme said:
We have continued to finish top four and done better in the cups.

If you want to put that down to jamminess you are a moron.

Charming. Where did I say we were jammy to finish in the top four? Clearly you are the moron as you can’t read.

Gassin's finest · Aug 19, 2019

Spurs: Champions League finalists for the first time ever.

Spurs fans: We've declined!

Shadydan · Aug 19, 2019

Everlasting Seconds said:
Main problem to our style of play is, we almost never have our 11 best players assembled at the same time, all very fresh, fully match fit and none patching over an injury/playing through pain.
A hypothetical fully 100% match fit and in-form squad would have solved most of the issues commented on in this thread.

This is quite obvious but some people don't want to see it.

dontcallme · Aug 19, 2019

dontcallme said:
We have continued to finish top four and done better in the cups.

If you want to put that down to jamminess you are a moron.

Apologies, shouldn’t post when drunk

dontcallme · Aug 19, 2019

dagraham said:
Charming. Where did I say we were jammy to finish in the top four? Clearly you are the moron as you can’t read.

Yeah, I was drunk

dagraham · Aug 19, 2019

dontcallme said:
Apologies, shouldn’t post when drunk

Fair enough. Never a good idea!

SUIYHA · Aug 19, 2019

Since January 8th, we've played 28 games in all competitions. Guess how many we've been leading at half-time?

Leicester (H)
Southampton (A)
Huddersfield (H)
Everton (H)

Four. Just four out of 28 games we've gone into the break winning. By comparison, we've been behind in fourteen of them. Yes, we had a lot of injuries in the second half of last season. Yes, we had a fixture pile-up because of the cup runs. Yes, we had a lot of difficult Champions League matches to play (and you could say we were winning the City away game at half time even though we were 3-2 down on the night). Yes, we have had stadium move problems and uncertainty over player contracts. But this record is quite simply nowhere near good enough, especially when you consider that out of those four we dropped points in two of them.

We just don't seem to impose ourselves on games anymore - the famous high intensity pressing game that Poch made his name with seems to have died a long time ago. I know that very few teams will ever dominate for a full 90 minutes, but whereas we used to be able to get on top for the majority of a game apart from a few brief spells, nowadays we seem to struggle for 70-80 minutes of a game but manage to carve out a few sporadic chances when the opposition gets tired or loses concentration, and if we're not clinical then we drop points.

I really hope Poch has a plan up his sleeve, because I love the guy and would love him to succeed here. He's done a superb job with us thus far. But whilst he may be able to win a cup, I decided yesterday that I cannot see us winning the title under his management, barring a spectacular 2015/16 style collapse of all of the other big teams which is not likely. I really hope I'm wrong and that the introduction of Lo Celso and Sessegnon, as well as Ndombele's settling in changes things around and that my favourite ever Spurs manager gets to lift the trophy we've all wanted him to. But the reality of it is, he gets the big tactical decisions in the big games wrong far too often. Regardless of injuries and the quality of the opposition we were up against, you would NEVER see Klopp or Guardiola set up the way we did on Saturday, even if they had the same squad we had. They would have insisted on starting Lucas and tried to soak up the pressure to play quick counter-attacking football whilst pressing and dominating in City's half when they could see them getting tired or frustrated - in fact there was a time after Moura's goal when they were rattled and they did fall back so I thought it could have been the perfect opportunity to go for the jugular and to bring on Lo Celso early to win the game for us. But once again - Poch waited until the final few minutes to use his last two substitutions. I rate him above Emery overall but one thing you can say for that lot down the road is that their manager is far more proactive at changing a game that's slipping away from them early with good substitutions.

Yeah cue the negative ratings, and to be honest maybe our place in the footballing hierarchy at the moment is not to be challenging for the title but to make sure we finish in the top four and win a cup. Just my two cents.

NEVILLEB · Aug 19, 2019

The midfield don’t look like they compliment each other.

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