The Mauricio Pochettino thread

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

freeeki said:
Out of interest, what is the point at which you'll accept Pochettino is done, and is never turning this around?

What's the cruddery threshold for you?

Because it sounds very much like only 1 convincing win in 12 games isn't close to doing it for you.

For comparison, our form for the last 10 games of last season was: WLLWLLLWDL - so that's 6 wins from 22 games, with 11 losses.

Last I checked we've only lost 3 games in the league so far. We've also won 3 games. We crashed out of the league cup (not the only one to do so, and in a competition we've clearly never cared for, for better or ill), and got spanked by a club that spanks a lot of European giants. We also drew away to Man City and Arsenal, who are (if we care to admit it) pretty handy.

I'm not glossing over the performances, they are dreadful. But I'm also not going to accede to this narrative of us being utter shite for, at the current count, a season and a half. We are in a rut, no doubt. But because we have been (whisper it) fucking excellent for 5 years now, we are, as fans, finding it hard to deal with having a mediocre spell. But this isn't a crisis... yet.

How far will I back Poch? I've said many times, bar a serious relegation scrap, I'll back him to sort it out... if (again, reiterating a caveat I've long stood by) if he wants to.

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

SpartanSpur said:
If we're honest the cracks started to show at the start of last season, we had a fantastic start in terms of points but we weren't dominating games like we used to, felt like we were riding our luck a bit. A 50% Dembele probably the difference at times. I'd hoped it was WC fatigue and Wembley disappointment, but its gotten worse this season.

Since the turn of the year is certainly when things really started to go south that's for sure.

The Burnley game was where it turned, which was February. If people care to remember, we lost a large chunk of our team to injury, we focused on the CL (rightly) and because we hadn't recruited we ran out of steam. That was last seasons problems.

We have big problems this season too. But these are different problems (although still embryonic in the non-recruitment issue) brought about by failure in Madrid, stagnation of the squad and fucking up contract issues.

It doesn't help that everyone seems keener to repeat lazy media gossip and cliched SSN-style reasoning, as opposed to backing their club.

SirNiNyHotspur · Oct 22, 2019

SpartanSpur said:
If we're honest the cracks started to show at the start of last season, we had a fantastic start in terms of points but we weren't dominating games like we used to, felt like we were riding our luck a bit. A 50% Dembele probably the difference at times. I'd hoped it was WC fatigue and Wembley disappointment, but its gotten worse this season.

Since the turn of the year is certainly when things really started to go south that's for sure.

I think you are correct to say our problems started beginning of last season, but the main point missed here is the transfer window that passed that year had a quite a say in where we find ourselves now, Pochs calls of be brave fell on deaf ears and I believe that was the start of the demise of Pochs love affair with Tottenham. I am a Poch fan for the simple reason he has overall excelled given the handicaps he’s had, imo we will never take that next step to winners no matter what manager until we change the way we work at the top, it’s futile, i think Poch now knows that...

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

Anyway... I'm being pedantic.

Of course things are shite, but they're not as shite as everyone is panicking about. But, whatever happens, happens right? If Levy and Poch decide it ain't working anymore and he leaves, then fine. If Poch stays and sorts it out, fine. I'll still be going every game.

But I can't be doing with this lazy, we've been shite for ages, crap.

McFlash · Oct 22, 2019

It would be nice if people could either want Poch to stay, or want Poch to go, without feeling the need to insult each other.
We're allowed to have different opinions and yet, still support the same team.

mike_l · Oct 22, 2019

dimiSpur said:
I agree. My points are potential contributing factors to the undoubtable shitstorm we find ourselves in. I'm not saying we're fine. I'm giving reasons other than the simplistic and singular "Poch is shit". He hasn't covered himself in glory, but I refuse to believe another manager would turn this lot into PL winners.

You're probably right about that, but I'd wager most competent managers could walk into the job today and get 3rd place relatively comfortably. That's not a dig at Poch being incompetent, just that for whatever reason he has lost the ability to get performances out of this squad, and a new guy would probably not have those issues that have accumulated under him, fresh slate and all that.

I'd also add, we haven't just been poor since February, we were poor from the beginning of the season, it was just that results fell in line with how we were playing from Feb onwards. The issues therefore have been there for much longer than most are acknowledging. l

SpartanSpur · Oct 22, 2019

SirNiNyHotspur said:
I think you are correct to say our problems started beginning of last season, but the main point missed here is the transfer window that passed that year had a quite a say in where we find ourselves now, Pochs calls of be brave fell on deaf ears and I believe that was the start of the demise of Pochs love affair with Tottenham. I am a Poch fan for the simple reason he has overall excelled given the handicaps he’s had, imo we will never take that next step to winners no matter what manager until we change the way we work at the top, it’s futile, i think Poch now knows that...

The owners are going nowhere, so what is the solution? Just keep on keeping on because Poch has credit in the bank? From what @Trix is saying things are clearly very bad behind the scenes. I don't see how we get out of it.

Also if Poch 'knows that', then there's no point in him being here, he should walk.

P.s. I'm a Poch fan too, but Spurs is always my priority, and I genuinely think it's best for both to move on.

Gassin's finest said:
The Burnley game was where it turned, which was February. If people care to remember, we lost a large chunk of our team to injury, we focused on the CL (rightly) and because we hadn't recruited we ran out of steam. That was last seasons problems.

We have big problems this season too. But these are different problems (although still embryonic in the non-recruitment issue) brought about by failure in Madrid, stagnation of the squad and fucking up contract issues.

It doesn't help that everyone seems keener to repeat lazy media gossip and cliched SSN-style reasoning, as opposed to backing their club.

And I was one of the people at the forefront putting those excuses forward. Right now I think we're beyond excuses, as this time Poch has a had a big part to play in all of them, including (were ITK to be believed) the lack of incomings in summer 2018 and Jan 2019.

I think you are right with Burnley, I believe that was the point that they realised any hope of the league was well and truly gone, and league performances fell off a cliff after that. Maybe that's when the players' doubts began.

Kiedis · Oct 22, 2019

pffft said:
So for the past year or so I've not been seeing a complete and utter mess of a team, and we have actually been beating the likes of Brighton and Watford with magnificent displays of tactical genius from the manager?

That's a relief then, thanks for putting me right. Appreciate it.

Whoops, revisited again. Silly me.

Wasn't referring to the period where it's been generally impossible to see any identity in our play. I just take issue with so many using the stuff we're doing right now to rewrite history and make it so that the period where we were good was just about the players being willing to run about a little bit more.

Slaughtering what we're seeing right now is absolutely fine, but using this period as proof that Poch was actually a "Argentinian Redknapp" all along is perverse.

dimiSpur · Oct 22, 2019

mike_l said:
You're probably right about that, but I'd wager most competent managers could walk into the job today and get 3rd place relatively comfortably. That's not a dig at Poch being incompetent, just that for whatever reason he has lost the ability to get performances out of this squad, and a new guy would probably not have those issues that have accumulated under him, fresh slate and all that.

I'd also add, we haven't just been poor since February, we were poor from the beginning of the season, it was just that results fell in line with how we were playing from Feb onwards. The issues therefore have been there for much longer than most are acknowledging. l

That's the risk. Would a new manager walk in and straighten things out, or would things get worse in the long term? That's what needs to be evaluated. As things stand, I'm in the give Poch time to fix things camp!

We have indeed been poor since February, arguably even before February. We showed great courage to get to the CL final, although we had a great chunk of luck too.

So there are obviously serious issues in the team, it's not just a monthly blip. We're getting what our performances deserve. The question is, how do we get out of this long-term slump.

skaz04nik · Oct 22, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
We also drew away to Man City and Arsenal, who are (if we care to admit it) pretty handy

Just look at XG and expected points

Our form between Feb and May 2019 is 11th (based on expected goals/ points), this year we are 8th and declining

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

Kiedis said:
Whoops, revisited again. Silly me.

Wasn't referring to the period where it's been generally impossible to see any identity in our play. I just take issue with so many using the stuff we're doing right now to rewrite history and make it so that the period where we were good was just about the players being willing to run about a little bit more.

Slaughtering what we're seeing right now is absolutely fine, but using this period as proof that Poch was actually a "Argentinian Redknapp" all along is perverse.

Yeah, I was the one who said that, and if you'd read it all, and all my other posts in this discussion since August, you'd know that I'm one of the few supporting him in here.

I'm as unimpressed with the revisionism as anyone.

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

skaz04nik said:
Just look at XG and expected points

Our form between Feb and May 2019 is 11th (based on expected goals/ points), this year we are 8th and declining

Do me a favour...

eddiev14 · Oct 22, 2019

There have been so many pages of this thread since I last properly engaged with one of our matches, given how disillusioned with the team I’ve become.

Can someone please summarise what (if any) ITK we’ve had from the likes of @JJetset about the absolute farce this season has become.

My flight landed on Saturday and I just wasn’t even surprised to hear some kid shriek “Oh my God, Watford are beating Spurs”.

Honestly, what is going on? I am Poch’s biggest fan but Levy must be close to sacking him now?

freeeki · Oct 22, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
Last I checked we've only lost 3 games in the league so far. We've also won 3 games. We crashed out of the league cup (not the only one to do so, and in a competition we've clearly never cared for, for better or ill), and got spanked by a club that spanks a lot of European giants. We also drew away to Man City and Arsenal, who are (if we care to admit it) pretty handy.

I'm not glossing over the performances, they are dreadful. But I'm also not going to accede to this narrative of us being utter shite for, at the current count, a season and a half. We are in a rut, no doubt. But because we have been (whisper it) fucking excellent for 5 years now, we are, as fans, finding it hard to deal with having a mediocre spell. But this isn't a crisis... yet.

How far will I back Poch? I've said many times, bar a serious relegation scrap, I'll back him to sort it out... if (again, reiterating a caveat I've long stood by) if he wants to.

Well, I admire your tenacity if nothing else.

Personally I hope Poch is given the boot long before he has us languishing in 13th, but it's nice to know he'll still have one supporter if that happens.

Gb160 · Oct 22, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
I'm as unimpressed with the revisionism as anyone.

Mate you brought up the Man City and Arsenal games.
Man City absolutely smashed us, and we threw away a 2 goal lead against the scum and were fortunate not to lose.
To look at those 2 games in a positive light is blatant revisionism.

freeeki · Oct 22, 2019

eddiev14 said:
There have been so many pages of this thread since I last properly engaged with one of our matches, given how disillusioned with the team I’ve become.

Can someone please summarise what (if any) ITK we’ve had from the likes of @JJetset about the absolute farce this season has become.

My flight landed on Saturday and I just wasn’t even surprised to hear some kid shriek “Oh my God, Watford are beating Spurs”.

Honestly, what is going on? I am Poch’s biggest fan but Levy must be close to sacking him now?

Unsure what JJ has said, if anything, but Trix has basically said there's a lot of discontent in the dressing room and ValY has been saying for ages that players have downed tools on Poch.

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

Gb160 said:
Mate you brought up the Man City and Arsenal games.
Man City absolutely smashed us, and we threw away a 2 goal lead against the scum and were fortunate not to lose.
To look at those 2 games in a positive light is blatant revisionism.

How is getting a point away at a top club, when we're playing poorly, not a positive?

freeeki · Oct 22, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
How is getting a point away at a top club, when we're playing poorly, not a positive?

Perhaps you've forgotten the Manchester City game.

The ONE positive we can take from that game is that we, somehow, came away with a point which we did not deserve, largely thanks to VAR ruling their last minute goal out.

The negatives:

City 30 shots on goal, Spurs 3.

If you want to try and paint that game in a positive light then you crack right on, but please don't ever wibble about revisionism on here again.

dagraham · Oct 22, 2019

Gassin's finest said:
How is getting a point away at a top club, when we're playing poorly, not a positive?

It wasn’t a gritty performance where we were compact and organised and frustrated the opposition though was it? We were totally battered and simply jammed it.

Gassin's finest · Oct 22, 2019

freeeki said:
Perhaps you've forgotten the Manchester City game.

The ONE positive we can take from that game is that we, somehow, came away with a point which we did not deserve, largely thanks to VAR ruling their last minute goal out.

The negatives:

City 30 shots on goal, Spurs 3.

If you want to try and paint that game in a positive light then you crack right on, but please don't ever wibble about revisionism on here again.

A point is a point.

Curb your attitude.

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