The VAR Thread

Danny1 · Oct 29, 2019

Danny1 said:
VAR has been an utter shambles this season. Just taking Spurs games alone I have seen the following errors / close calls:

1 - Kane penalty not given against Newcastle.
2 - Rose penalty not given against Leicester.
3 - Aurier goal disallowed due to Son offside which could be deemed previous phase (how far back do you go?)
4 - Lamela foul on Rodri not given.
5 - City goal being disallowed due to dubious hand ball.

For me, the above are clear & obvious errors that had an effect on the outcome of those games. They need to go with the cricket philosophy which is if there is no definite answer then the decision stands with the on field umpire.

Also, nobody knows who the person is in the VAR Room, have they had training, are they previous referees or players? Are their allegiances known before the game to ensure that there is no bias in these decisions that are affecting games.

Looking at the above, if those decisions went they way that they should then City would have beaten us, we would have beaten Leicester & possibly Newcastle.

I said the above back in mid September and it’s just getting worse and worse. The thing that VAR was meant to bring was some consistency in the decisions being made. However, some of the decisions that have happened over the last two weeks are completely idiotic.

VAR should only ever intervene if there has been a clear and obvious error made by the referee or his linesmen. These mm decisions in offsides are ridiculous and the totally subjective view on a red card or foul leading to a non goal should not be made by the guy in the office but by the referee of that particular game.

Is it really that difficult to have a tablet with the referee at all times that he can refer to if he needs to review a decision. This way, VAR can get involved and ask the ref to review the decision himself. Win - win!

But let’s be honest, we are talking about the FA and the Premier League here so common sense goes right out of the window and we will continue with the farce we currently have.

'O Zio · Oct 30, 2019

MK Yid said:
I am pro VAR, and being ex Football League Referee, pro PGMOL in general, just against the way VAR has been implemented over here

Spot on. As I said earlier in the thread I've always been very pro VAR but they're making such a pigs ear of it and creating all kinds of problems for themselves that there doesn't need to be, I'm starting to lose what little faith I had in the "powers that be" to get it right.

Trotter · Oct 30, 2019

Danny1 said:
I said the above back in mid September and it’s just getting worse and worse. The thing that VAR was meant to bring was some consistency in the decisions being made. However, some of the decisions that have happened over the last two weeks are completely idiotic.

VAR should only ever intervene if there has been a clear and obvious error made by the referee or his linesmen. These mm decisions in offsides are ridiculous and the totally subjective view on a red card or foul leading to a non goal should not be made by the guy in the office but by the referee of that particular game.

Is it really that difficult to have a tablet with the referee at all times that he can refer to if he needs to review a decision. This way, VAR can get involved and ask the ref to review the decision himself. Win - win!

But let’s be honest, we are talking about the FA and the Premier League here so common sense goes right out of the window and we will continue with the farce we currently have.

Yes, but I disagree with 4 of your 5 initial situations.
Only one that were incorrect was the Lamela foul in my view, and we have since benefitted from Vertonghen against Watford where VAR should have interfered.

Seriously you want the referee to carry a tablet around with him at all times, and then you say common sense has gone out the window in the next sentence ? That is irony to the extreme.

Yes, they have done a poor job in implementing VAR, but you blaming rule changes and blinkered view against decisions that you want to give, even though not supported by law makes things worse

Marty · Oct 30, 2019

Danny1 said:
Is it really that difficult to have a tablet with the referee at all times that he can refer to if he needs to review a decision. This way, VAR can get involved and ask the ref to review the decision himself. Win - win!

That is surely the only logical way VAR will evolve. It doesn't have to be a tablet, a phone-sized device has a big enough screen for the ref to be able to see a situation properly.

Alternatively/also do what they do in Rugby and throw it up on the big screen, and mic up the ref and VAR room to broadcast so we (and crucially, fans in the ground) know why a decision is being made. I know this is a problem right now as Anfield and OT are outdated shitholes without proper screens, but it has to come into play sooner rather than later. This also demands that very strict rules regarding player protests and encroaching/harrassing the ref are actually enforced, which is probably wishful thinking.

Spurs 1961 · Oct 30, 2019

Once again the richest sport shows how amateurish it is in organisational terms. Watching the Rugby World Cup as just an occasional rugby watcher I have been amazed at how calmly and logically they try to get decisions right and not just make emotional judgments. The England v All Blacks game was as high in physicality, emotions and tensions as any sport could be but the officials seemed to know what they are about. Contrast this with football where most people involved appear to be clueless. Sure not all the rugby decisions might be right but the process left you feeling they were made with integrity

Danny1 · Oct 30, 2019

MK Yid said:
Yes, but I disagree with 4 of your 5 initial situations.
Only one that were incorrect was the Lamela foul in my view, and we have since benefitted from Vertonghen against Watford where VAR should have interfered.

Seriously you want the referee to carry a tablet around with him at all times, and then you say common sense has gone out the window in the next sentence ? That is irony to the extreme.

Yes, they have done a poor job in implementing VAR, but you blaming rule changes and blinkered view against decisions that you want to give, even though not supported by law makes things worse

Think you may have missed my point regarding the tablet, there was irony in my statement. However, the point you haven't clarified at all is that VAR was brought in to make the game more consistent when it actual fact its done the opposite.

Also, to quote your first sentence "in my view", this is exactly the reason that the decision should stay with the on field referee because they were not clear cut decisions but were "in his view, or my view etc".

May I ask which rule changes I am blaming & what blinkered view I'm taking as one of the results meant that Spurs lost so not sure what the hell you are on about?

All in all, a bit of a strange reply with a bit of anger thrown my way which was a bit odd to be honest buddy? Especially as you haven't made a single good point in your response?

Trotter · Oct 30, 2019

Danny1 said:
Think you may have missed my point regarding the tablet, there was irony in my statement. However, the point you haven't clarified at all is that VAR was brought in to make the game more consistent when it actual fact its done the opposite.

Also, to quote your first sentence "in my view", this is exactly the reason that the decision should stay with the on field referee because they were not clear cut decisions but were "in his view, or my view etc".

May I ask which rule changes I am blaming & what blinkered view I'm taking as one of the results meant that Spurs lost so not sure what the hell you are on about?

All in all, a bit of a strange reply with a bit of anger thrown my way which was a bit odd to be honest buddy? Especially as you haven't made a single good point in your response?

Handball for Man City player was one of your complaints, which is a law change, not incorrect use of VAR. but perfect use of it.
The Rose penalty, was absolutely not a penalty despite you “claiming” otherwise.
The Kane one was debateable, majority of top level referees agreed that it was not, a minority indicated they would have given it.
The offside goal I have sympathy with, but whether centimetres or yards, offside is offside, and before saying as was close stick with on field decision, well we don’t know what that onfield decision would have been as they are instructed to keep flag down and let VAR decide.
I want more consistency like you, but picking the incidents you have, which are blinkered vision dubious at best, and in some cases disagreeing with the laws of football, when there are much clearer issues, the ones PGMOL already admitted to, the James penalty (which was given by an Australian non Premier League official) the Arsenal disallowed goal this weekend, the Vertonghen penalty v Watford, your post is more just bleating than constructive or anything else.
And no, I don’t believe for one second, that you were being ironic with suggesting referee should carry a tablet, I believe you were being deadly serious, as did the poster following me, until I pointed out that is ridiculous suggestion, and you back-tracked.

Danny1 · Oct 30, 2019

MK Yid said:
Handball for Man City player was one of your complaints, which is a law change, not incorrect use of VAR. but perfect use of it.
The Rose penalty, was absolutely not a penalty despite you “claiming” otherwise.
The Kane one was debateable, majority of top level referees agreed that it was not, a minority indicated they would have given it.
The offside goal I have sympathy with, but whether centimetres or yards, offside is offside, and before saying as was close stick with on field decision, well we don’t know what that onfield decision would have been as they are instructed to keep flag down and let VAR decide.
I want more consistency like you, but picking the incidents you have, which are blinkered vision dubious at best, and in some cases disagreeing with the laws of football, when there are much clearer issues, the ones PGMOL already admitted to, the James penalty (which was given by an Australian non Premier League official) the Arsenal disallowed goal this weekend, the Vertonghen penalty v Watford, your post is more just bleating than constructive or anything else.
And no, I don’t believe for one second, that you were being ironic with suggesting referee should carry a tablet, I believe you were being deadly serious, as did the poster following me, until I pointed out that is ridiculous suggestion, and you back-tracked.

Jesus mate, calm down haha!! You are getting well heated over one post? I pretty much disagree with everything you just said, for one, the Man City penalty that you said I have so wrong I think touched Skipps arm too so there was doubt in it! Also, clearly you know absolutely nothing about technology as the mm decision for Son couldn’t be proven as accurate due to the cameras they are using and the frame by frame time between the player releasing the ball and Son being “offside”.

Maybe it’s because you used to be a ref and you think you know more or something but you are coming across like an arrogant idiot as you clearly don’t know as much as you seem to think you do, sun and own arse springs to mind.

And no, I don’t care one tiny rats shit if you thought I was being ironic or not, you are some nobody on a football forum who has decided to be arrogant, rude and quite frankly pathetic. Have a nice evening now won’t you and try not to get too angry with the mirror reflection of yourself when you are brushing your teeth, ta ra ?

Danners9 · Nov 3, 2019

Some surprising results around Europe last night. All had some VAR involvement.

Real Madrid 0-0 Betis

First, no handball:
Hazard goal disallowed. Replay isn't that clear, at first it looks like you're meant to focus on the guys on the goal line but Hazard is just offside when he receives the ball: https://streamable.com/mq8uu

Levante 3-1 Barcelona
Offside before setting Messi up for the goal: https://streamja.com/5Q6p

Frankfurt 5-1 Bayern
This was initially given as a penalty and therefore no red but then it was given as a free kick and a red:

Streamable Video

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

From the limited replays it looks like a dive, but we don't see the other angle.

Marty · Nov 3, 2019

Danners9 said:
Some surprising results around Europe last night. All had some VAR involvement.

Real Madrid 0-0 Betis

First, no handball:
Hazard goal disallowed. Replay isn't that clear, at first it looks like you're meant to focus on the guys on the goal line but Hazard is just offside when he receives the ball: https://streamable.com/mq8uu

Levante 3-1 Barcelona
Offside before setting Messi up for the goal: https://streamja.com/5Q6p

Frankfurt 5-1 Bayern
This was initially given as a penalty and therefore no red but then it was given as a free kick and a red:

Streamable Video

Watch this video on Streamable.

streamable.com

From the limited replays it looks like a dive, but we don't see the other angle.

The Bayern one is undisputably correct though, as long as it isn't a dive. Because they removed the double punishment of red card/penalty unless in extreme cases, bringing the ball back for a free kick means that Boateng's punishment is upgraded from yellow to red, as he denies a clear goalscoring opportunity. You'd think the Bayern SoMe team would've been just slightly clued up on basic rules...

The Real handball is less clear cut but this season's rule change does state that an arm pointing towards the ground when a player lunges like that can count as part of his natural "silhouette". Had the ball hit a raised arm, penalty every day, but that wasn't the case here.

Both offsides look correct as well, though Hazard's was very close.

See, VAR CAN WORK! It's just the PL numpties who are making rookie mistakes all the bloody time.

Danners9 · Nov 3, 2019

Marty said:
See, VAR CAN WORK! It's just the PL numpties who are making rookie mistakes all the bloody time.

I'd also say they are all correct. It does also show that fans, players, media teams and commentators need more experience seeing these decisions and more explanation as to what is going on.

Watching the rugby final last night I thought two things: how good it is that the refs and the TMO are mic'd up so we can hear the discussion, and also that I am perplexed at how long an advantage can last before giving a penalty. Same applies to some VAR decisions, not the ones above, where the play is pulled back for something that happened 20-30 seconds before. Seen that in the Aussie league last season (not so far this..) and the Brazilian league earlier this season. Correct but there should be more refinement about applying the rules. Firmino (& Son) offside using shoulder vs knee, for one. Why not use the feet? easier to judge and it's a truer measure of advantage, IMO at least.

Marty · Nov 3, 2019

Danners9 said:
I'd also say they are all correct. It does also show that fans, players, media teams and commentators need more experience seeing these decisions and more explanation as to what is going on.

Watching the rugby final last night I thought two things: how good it is that the refs and the TMO are mic'd up so we can hear the discussion, and also that I am perplexed at how long an advantage can last before giving a penalty. Same applies to some VAR decisions, not the ones above, where the play is pulled back for something that happened 20-30 seconds before. Seen that in the Aussie league last season (not so far this..) and the Brazilian league earlier this season. Correct but there should be more refinement about applying the rules. Firmino (& Son) offside using shoulder vs knee, for one. Why not use the feet? easier to judge and it's a truer measure of advantage, IMO at least.

Agree with all of this, particularly the bold. It won't work until everyone knows the process and can hear what's going on.

muppetman · Nov 3, 2019

I think this about covers it - they either need to radically change how it's being implemented (look to Rugby on how to be clear, concise and relatively quick).

sausage · Nov 3, 2019

muppetman said:
I think this about covers it - they either need to radically change how it's being implemented (look to Rugby on how to be clear, concise and relatively quick).

I think it should be like Rugby, where you hear a welsh bloke talking to the ref live, over his earpiece, saying "Well, what's hap-pend yur is e's caught 'im, and that's why he's fell o-va"

In all seriousness, it's better when there's dialogue involved so you know why (e.g. which law are they looking at).

Danny1 · Nov 3, 2019

VAR haha! Honestly what a joke, there are some people on here that seem intent on defending it but it’s an absolute joke of a system. No surprises really considering the FA and the Premier League are involved!

dondo · Nov 3, 2019

VAR got 3 major incidents wrong in the spurs Everton match today.
Son should have had a penalty and not been sent off and Everton should have had a penalty for Deles hand ball. Not bad 0 out of 3 ?

thebenjamin · Nov 3, 2019

There are more wrong decisions with Var than there were without it.

sausage · Nov 3, 2019

dondo said:
VAR got 3 major incidents wrong in the spurs Everton match today.
Son should have had a penalty and not been sent off and Everton should have had a penalty for Deles hand ball. Not bad 0 out of 3 ?

Dele's wasn't a handball by the law of the game.

Unless you think players should all compete for corners like pogo sticks with their arms pinned to their sides

jonnyp · Nov 3, 2019

sausage said:
Dele's wasn't a handball by the law of the game.

Unless you think players should all compete for corners like pogo sticks with their arms pinned to their sides

I'm pretty sure what saved Alli in that situation is the fact that Alli was clearly clattered and pushed down. If he hadn't been it would've been a pen according to the new rules.

Per the PL website:
"The handball rule now has extra clarity because it does not consider intent by a player. Another big change is to do with the position of a player's hand/arm. If the ball hits a player who has made their body "unnaturally bigger" then a foul will be awarded "

nailsy · Nov 4, 2019

I haven't got a clue how Dele got away with that handball. The Premier League statement about it being something to do with two players challenging for the ball was bizarre.

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