Jose Mourinho

SpartanSpur said:

He's supposed to develop some clear patterns of play for the build up and a more effective pressing system because frankly it has been exposed as non existent in recent weeks. Football has moved on.

Conte and Simeone are both defensive coaches but their teams have much more of an identity in how they play.

He definitely showed his coaching prowess in making us an effective counter attacking side for a spell but those parts of our game have been lacking throughout. As soon as confidence has dropped it's become obvious.

I see no point in letting him continue just because he's not fully culpable when he's unlikely to change his ways or get the 3 £50m players he probably needs to make his system work.

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So, you're acknowledging that he demonstrated competence in his management over a period.

So what changed?

Did he change? Again, we return to the 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario.'

If he changed, then when he changed once again at their behest (this last week, allegedly), what then accounts for them not giving a shit tonight?

If he didn't change, then why the sudden drop off?

jeremystorey said:

That's funny. Cos I feel the entire mentality of just about every player we have is wrong for the club too.

No idea how is coaching is responsible for the umpteen mental mistakes we see defensively. Today was Dier's turn (again) to do something catastrophically dumb.

Oh, and I think I lost count after the 30th min of how many simple misplaced passes there were.

Let's also not forget all the players just standing around like statues. Refusing to budge. Move. Or try.

But if it makes everyone feel better to say it is all down to one person. Fine. You're right. The players have stopped making even the smallest effort.

Bring in the most attack minded genius in the land and let's see if they can turn these pathetic babies into men. 'Cos one thing I can also guarantee you is this... whoever your dream manager is will NOT be backed. They will have to deal with the exact same set of weak minded losers.

We're in deep, deep shit. And sacking Jose will not be a magical solution some seem to think it'll be. That's not to say he won't be going. 'Cos I can't see how he stays at this point, as the players have completely given up.

But by all means... let's give them a pass. It's all the manager's fault that they can't focus or put in any effort or pretend to give a shit. All because of Jose's philosophy, they can no longer make a 2 yard pass. Or mark someone. Or run into open space. Or do even the simplest of things, like not kick a fucking player in the leg while sitting on your arse in the penalty area. I'm sure that had everything to do with the Jose philosophy of playing.

Give me a break.

You'll get your wish. I don't doubt that. But what you won't get is someone who will turn us into anything resembling what we were 4 years ago. Not with these players. Not with this chairman. And not in this financial climate that will cripple us for the next three or four years.

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I wish I could 'Winner' this a million times, Jez!

The players have gone

Please go Mourinho.

rez9000 said:

So, you're acknowledging that he demonstrated competence in his management over a period.

So what changed?

Did he change? Again, we return to the 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario.'

If he changed, then when he changed once again at their behest (this last week, allegedly), what then accounts for them not giving a shit tonight?

If he didn't change, then why the sudden drop off?

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Of course he showed competence. He's Jose Mourinho, he's not a fraud, its just looking like he's becoming a man out of time.

I don't think it was ever sustainable, Son and Kane's level was so high it was never going to last. The amount of games we took the lead in wasn't going to last. We've shown next to no ability to get back into a game when going behind since Old Trafford.

I had some concerns about how we struggled to assert ourselves on games when leading which Mourinho even admitted to - 'we didn't drop off, the other team pinned us back. This has just grown and grown. I fully accept player quality has caused some issues throughout, but he hasn't coached his way around it either.

I think that's been the crux of the issue. As things started going wrong Jose has tried to change things and has been laying into the players for not delivering what he wants. If they don't think he's put in the groundwork to help them to do that (I genuinely don't think he has when it comes to build up and pressing) you can see where division begins.

Again he's not fully at fault by any stretch but as weak minded as some of our players are I genuinely think its that lack of structure that is catching up with him now as much as anything else.

Shadydan said:

The players have gone

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Christ that’s fucking depressing to watch.

fortworthspur said:

I couldnt disagree more. and Im not for sacking Mourinho either. But I disagree with the idea our players cant change or refuse to change or dont want to win as much as the next footballer. the buck stops with the coach.

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Sorry it took so long to respond, dude - I wanted to read the thread itself, so had to pause on responding.

In terms of the manager being ultimately responsible, of course - that's always the case. The issue here isn't whether Mourinho should or shouldn't lose his job - it's about the fact that if he loses his job, it won't be because of failings that are unique to him.

No manager, in my view, would be able to consistently get a tune out of this squad. The reason I think that is suggested by a couple of things:

The way they fell apart in the second half against Liverpool last week and the manner they played against Brighton. Again, that strikes me as symptomatic of people who are not given to putting in effort, even if there's no chance of success (there are exceptions of course.). Putting in effort isn't their first instinct. But they're sportsmen - putting in maximum effort should be the default position, not something that should be coaxed out of them.

The way they played in the first half tonight. Ultimately, if they had grievances then, by all accounts, they have had a chance to air those grievances. Obviously, they might not be fully solved in so short a space of time, but if the manager has reached out, at the very least, reciprocate. And the way to do that is to put in effort. They didn't. Or most of them (the old guard) didn't.

And this happened for an extended period under the last manager too.

They may want to win, but they don't seem to want to try to win. It's almost like they expect to get things out of football regardless of what they themselves put in.

And I have no doubt that if Mourinho is sacked, whoever comes in next will get a short period of better performance from the squad; but in short order, these very failings will resurface. We'll face Liverpool or Chelsea, we'll revert to our fragile, brittle selves and the cycle will start again - poor performance; manager sacked; rinse and repeat.

Shadydan said:

The players have gone

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That video really helps point out how grim it must be to be doing all this running without the midfield coming up to support you, it's like pissing in the wind, you might as well retreat into a mid/low block at that point. Having only the forward press like that is maybe useful to give time for the team behind you to get into its shape but a waste of energy beyond that.

SpartanSpur said:

I do get where your coming from. As 'Arry said the other night they need their heads knocking together. I do think modern players are soft and entitled, but that's just how it is.

All the top managers now understand this more and are much more technical in certain areas in order to accommodate this. Jose just hasn't adapted, I hoped he would but it has become clear.

I do think in classic spurs fashion we do always seem to get body blows at the worst times (including a few this season). I guess you have to be strong mentally to keep overcoming that.

I can totally understand being angry with the players after such an embarrassing performance in a derby game, I just see Jose as the bigger problem right now. If I honestly thought he wasn't contributing to this downfall I'd be right there with you making the players enemy number one.

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Likewise, apologies for not responding sooner- was reading the thread.

Poch wasn't 'old-fashioned', though. He was that kind of caring, nurturing guy. So let's say hypothetically the players are justified in feeling harshly treated by Mourinho. Why did they give up for Poch? He didn't treat them in that fashion, did he?

Again, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's like scientific method - you come up with a theory then you draft a hypothesis and then gather evidence to see if your hypothesis works.

Saying it's Mourinho's fault for the drop off doesn't fit the theory because Poch's late-stage tenure demonstrates it happening to him too. No matter how much one tries to twist the evidence, there's too much other evidence pointing to another factor that it busts the theory that Mourinho is the primary factor.

Has anyone thought the reason why we make so many individual defensive errors is because most of our games are played in our defensive 3rd?

Just a thought

Inq said:

Probably already in the works I'd expect and I dont blame him either.

Damage control now. Club has to ask themselves how long is it till Jose might turn the dressing room into a proper disaster and is it worth it.

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I think one of the only things in our favour that Kane won’t leave is that with covid no club can afford him. Man City will surely go far Haaland for 90 odd million. Far cheaper than a much older Kane with injury problems. (Maybe we worry if the kid goes elsewhere as City will probably then come in for Kane)

But other than that I don’t think we’ve ever been more exposed that Son or Kane could ask to leave in the summer. Two seasons of Europa league football in the prime of their careers is tragic. That’s why I think Levy could well fire Jose in the next two weeks. He will want to salvage top 4.

Shadydan said:

The players have gone

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Jose needs to go he really does! At the same time this is for two managers now the players have stopped playing!! ALOT of them need to do one too !

Dont like the football , dont like the results but I think we should just stick with Jose unless we are in danger of getting relegated. Try something different

Like Moura, Spurs is living off over 2-3 seasons of good results. We have a false sense of who we are.

Face it we are no longer a top 4 or even top 6 club like the 80s. We are mid table and we over achieve those 2-3 years with Poch. All this talk of we should be beating teams like Sheffield or Fulham or WBA is funny. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now.

Every time we hire and fire we end up with a lot of deadwood poisoning the team for the next incoming manager. We might get a new manager bounce but eventually it usually ends us bad.

The team needs a rebuild with younger and hungrier players.

Even for Poch it was the case. He had a lot of dead wood when he joined . Friedel, Vorm, Kaboul, Chiriches, Fazio, Yedlni, Capoue, Stambouli, Paulinho, Ceballos, Townsend, Chadli, Soldado, Adebayor, Bentaleb, Carrol, Caulker, Mason were all let go before he came good.

Jose buys have turn out mostly good this season. Rodon, Höjbjerg, Reguilón, Doherty, Vinícius, Fernandes, Hart. Onlu Fernandeds and Doherty can be considered failures. Let him one more season to turn the team into his team.

Otherwise we will always be stuck in this viscious cycle of new manager bounce, few bad results. We have had too many managerial changes since 2000. The only 2 that got us to anywhere near glory was Poch and Harry, both who had more 2 seasons with us. Of course both messed it up thinking they were better the Spurs. Harry with his Engliand job and Poch with his bigger club dream Madrid or ManU .

rez9000 said:

Likewise, apologies for not responding sooner- was reading the thread.

Poch wasn't 'old-fashioned', though. He was that kind of caring, nurturing guy. So let's say hypothetically the players are justified in feeling harshly treated by Mourinho. Why did they give up for Poch? He didn't treat them in that fashion, did he?

Again, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's like scientific method - you come up with a theory then you draft a hypothesis and then gather evidence to see if your hypothesis works.

Saying it's Mourinho's fault for the drop off doesn't fit the theory because Poch's late-stage tenure demonstrates it happening to him too. No matter how much one tries to twist the evidence, there's too much other evidence pointing to another factor that it busts the theory that Mourinho is the primary factor.

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I think they turned against Poch because he was trying to get us playing in a different way (that's the runour), with a diamond or midfield three and the players simply felt it wasn't working, and we lost sight of what made us good. It might be the same with Mourinho as well. We talk about attitude being off and entitled, but players also have to do the managers wishes and will also get the blamed for that. If you don't believe in what a manager is doing, then it's hard to follow, in all walks of life, and to a degree it's healthy. If they are using tactics or issues as an excuse to not take responsibility that's another issue. I do not for one second believe that the players are intentionally trying to sabotage Mourinho, nor do I believe they tried to sabotage Pochettino (and I think under Poch they clearly did try to play in the way that was asked, they just couldn't do it and lost confidence, with time it might have changed and I do think people in football are impatient, but it's not really the player's fault, we all are collectively in football, the current media machine makes it almost impossible not to be).

Personally, I think our issues are tactical, tactics that just allow the ball to come right back at us and invite pressure onto ourselves, without a clear idea of how to build attacks. I also think we play with a lot of fear, and that fear makes things even worse.

For what its worth, the scientific method doesn't really work when you are talking about events where we aren't seeing any data. We simply have two rumours, likely to be true but the extent of which unclear, and two similar incidents, but we don't really know the cause or effect or if they are justified or not.

C0YS said:

I think they turned against Poch because he was trying to get us playing in a different way (that's the runour), with a diamond or midfield three and the players simply felt it wasn't working, and we lost sight of what made us good. It might be the same with Mourinho as well. We talk about attitude being off and entitled, but players also have to do the managers wishes and will also get the blamed for that. If you don't believe in what a manager is doing, then it's hard to follow, in all walks of life, and to a degree it's healthy. If they are using tactics as an excuse to not take responsibility that's another issue.

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Not 'feeling like doing the job', which is what I'm suggesting isn't acceptable. I've been managed, and I've been a manager, and I know that none of my managers would accept me phoning it in, nor would I accept the people I managed phoning it in. If what I've been asked to do or have asked to be done is within the bounds of reason that, to me, is the line. You can't cross that.

Personally, I think our issues are tactical, tactics that just allow the ball to come right back at us and invite pressure onto ourselves, without a clear idea of how to build attacks. I also think we play with a lot of fear, and that fear makes things even worse.

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There are two different factors to consider - tactics and fear. Complying with a manager's tactical plan should be one of those default things that every professional player should do. You don't see Burnley players, for instance, kicking up stink because Dyche sets them up defensively; or Conte; or Simeone.

And if there's fear there (which I think there is), the last thing they should be doing is kicking up stink with their manager. They should understand that he wants the same thing they want - to win. It's not a complicated formula. That, again, smacks of unacceptable levels of self-entitlement. The idea that the bigger consideration - of bringing success for themselves and the manager and the club is less important than their selfish desires - be that not being pressured in the game, or not being dropped when they play badly, or being asked to play a certain way.

For what its worth, the scientific method doesn't really work when you are talking about events where we aren't seeing any data. We simply have two rumours, likely to be true but the extent of which unclear, and two similar incidents, but we don't really know the cause or effect or if they are justified or not.

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I know, it's why I said 'like'. There's no way of gathering data for such a subjective thing anyway. It was a pseudo-analogy.

C0YS said:

That video really helps point out how grim it must be to be doing all this running without the midfield coming up to support you, it's like pissing in the wind, you might as well retreat into a mid/low block at that point. Having only the forward press like that is maybe useful to give time for the team behind you to get into its shape but a waste of energy beyond that.

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I don't know if I've seen us organized pressing once all season. We might ask the front 4 to "press" but the rest of the team is far behind them and aren't reacting to what they're doing so its all a waste of energy.

midge said:

Dont like the football , dont like the results but I think we should just stick with Jose unless we are in danger of getting relegated. Try something different

Like Moura, Spurs is living off over 2-3 seasons of good results. We have a false sense of who we are.

Face it we are no longer a top 4 or even top 6 club like the 80s. We are mid table and we over achieve those 2-3 years with Poch. All this talk of we should be beating teams like Sheffield or Fulham or WBA is funny. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now.

Every time we hire and fire we end up with a lot of deadwood poisoning the team for the next incoming manager. We might get a new manager bounce but eventually it usually ends us bad.

The team needs a rebuild with younger and hungrier players.

Even for Poch it was the case. He had a lot of dead wood when he joined . Friedel, Vorm, Kaboul, Chiriches, Fazio, Yedlni, Capoue, Stambouli, Paulinho, Ceballos, Townsend, Chadli, Soldado, Adebayor, Bentaleb, Carrol, Caulker, Mason were all let go before he came good.

Jose buys have turn out mostly good this season. Rodon, Höjbjerg, Reguilón, Doherty, Vinícius, Fernandes, Hart. Onlu Fernandeds and Doherty can be considered failures. Let him one more season to turn the team into his team.

Otherwise we will always be stuck in this viscious cycle of new manager bounce, few bad results. We have had too many managerial changes since 2000. The only 2 that got us to anywhere near glory was Poch and Harry, both who had more 2 seasons with us. Of course both messed it up thinking they were better the Spurs. Harry with his Engliand job and Poch with his bigger club dream Madrid or ManU .

Jose Mourinho	20 Nov, 2019	Present
Mauricio Pochettino	27 May, 2014	19 Nov, 2019
Tim Sherwood	16 Dec, 2013	13 May, 2014
Andre Villas-Boas	03 Jul, 2012	16 Dec, 2013
Harry Redknapp	25 Oct, 2008	15 Jun, 2012
Juande Ramos	29 Oct, 2007	25 Oct, 2008
Clive Allen	26 Oct, 2007	29 Oct, 2007
Martin Jol	05 Nov, 2004	26 Oct, 2007
Jacques Santini	03 Jun, 2004	05 Nov, 2004
David Pleat	21 Sep, 2003	03 Jun, 2004
Glenn Hoddle	02 Apr, 2001	21 Sep, 2003
David Pleat	16 Mar, 2001	02 Apr, 2001

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Carroll, Chirches, Mason, Fazio, Vorm, Bentaleb and Townsend were not deadwood for Poch in his first season. Carroll and Chriches were back up players fundamentally, the former didn't have a long term future at Spurs but was used to fill a role for one season and he was actually needed. Chirches was our 4th choice centre back, Fazio was bought by Poch as a starter and would rotate with Dier. Chirches, in the end, was replaced with Wimmer and Fazio with Alderweireld.

Mason, Bentaleb and Townsend were starters, actual first team starters. Bentaleb ended up leaving because of attitude problems, Townsend became a rotational option and fought with our own staff so was sold off for being unprofessional and Mason suffered from bad form and injuries in Poch's second season. Vorm is the worst one, he was signed as a back up keeper and served us well for so long, and apparently was very important personality in the team. A lot of the other names are just young players, who were never really in the first team, so hardly deadwood, we have loads of them now, every season.

My issue with calling these players deadwood, is they were our team and they served a role, and could have been part of a successful team. You always have players like this, the last time Man utd won the league they had Welbeck and Cleverley regularly involved. Disd they have a long term future here? No. Were they deadwood? No. They were team players.

I don't like this whole way players work and transfers work, you always use transfers with the aim to improve the team, but it's a cyclical thing, you will always have players in that role, a team needs players of that role, as normally only about 14-15 players will be getting anything resembling regular playing time. When Poch took over we were a top 6 team, and we had top 6 players (before the current top 6 came into existence). Improving is, normally, an incremental process that involves sharp signings, player development of people already in the club and creating the right balance in characteristics, both in a footballing sense and a social one. Real deadwood for me is players which are clearly not in a managers plans, being a rotational player is fine. Rotational players will move on, and you hope to replace them with potential or previous first team players fill that role. It's just part of the nature of it. We don't need a mass clear out, because, for starters that will create issues in balance, it hardly ever happens, and partly because even boo boys, particularly boo boys actually have a role to play and as we have got better it becomes increasingly harder to get in similar quality players.

Anyway that's all by the by. We are not midtable, we spend the 6th highest on wages I believe and our natural position is 6th. We did overachieve but less that 6th is a failure, are players our better than you give them credit for and have actually shown that time after time. Moura is a great example, you say he is living of a few good seasons or whatever, Moura has been actively involved in the Champions league for years and years, well before Spurs. He's not a top player, but we've forgotten what truly average players look like. I mean the first season I had a season ticket for we had Reto Ziegler, Timmothy Atouba and Andy Ried as our left wing options. Moura would play every game in that team, and he'd probably be a fan favroute.

We do need to be heading in some direction however, my issue with Jose is I don't see what direction he'd be taking us. We played very well under him, our players have played well under him in patches, but it seems we are going the other direction.

Snarfalicious said:

Are we watching a football match or having a cavity filled?

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We've had our 'cavity filled' each of these last 3 games

rez9000 said:

Not 'feeling like doing the job', which is what I'm suggesting isn't acceptable. I've been managed, and I've been a manager, and I know that none of my managers would accept me phoning it in, nor would I accept the people I managed phoning it in. If what I've been asked to do or have asked to be done is within the bounds of reason that, to me, is the line. You can't cross that.

There are two different factors to consider - tactics and fear. Complying with a manager's tactical plan should be one of those default things that every professional player should do. You don't see Burnley players, for instance, kicking up stink because Dyche sets them up defensively; or Conte; or Simeone.

And if there's fear there (which I think there is), the last thing they should be doing is kicking up stink with their manager. They should understand that he wants the same thing they want - to win. It's not a complicated formula. That, again, smacks of unacceptable levels of self-entitlement. The idea that the bigger consideration - of bringing success for themselves and the manager and the club is less important than their selfish desires - be that not being pressured in the game, or not being dropped when they play badly, or being asked to play a certain way.

I know, it's why I said 'like'. There's no way of gathering data for such a subjective thing anyway. It was a pseudo-analogy.

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No, but I'm not sure they are phoning it in, or not intentionally anyway. The reality is that bad management does create worse workers even if it's not intentional right. If you don't believe in the project how can you really put all of yourself into it? I mean I'd quit, because it's a tension that requires a resolution. Players can't quit. It's a very different kind of situation.

I think we are trying to carry out jose's tactical plan, the difference is that those three managers have working tactical plans at the moment. It's not about liking it, it's if you don't believe it works how are you to work with it? Players often get the blame for tactics anyway (see Winks always passes it sideways, Lloris kicking it short criticism etc) and visa versa mind, and people make the same complaints.

The difference between what I feel is happening and those three managers is that those three managers are all masters of knowing how to build attacks. they have clear systematic approach, in Conte's whole style is actually built on pre-thought actions and movements aimed at exploiting space,I have never seen a Conte team where the ball boomerangs right back at you, I'd argue it's impossible to create that situation with Conte. Dyche is all about positioning yourself to win second balls, and to win free-kicks in important positions, we don't seem to do that. Simeone is about a very intense pressing block that suffocates opponents and then counter that with quick decisive bursts of play often involving carrying the ball out, not lumping it forward.

They do not create a system where we seem to just pile more and more pressure onto ourselves, hoping to and onto the feet of Kane or Son. This is the thing, my issue about the problem being tactics isn't about failure to fulfil tactical instructions, this might happen to a limited degree, under Poch I believe they fully tried to enact his tactical plan, it was just failing badly. I don't think they stopped working for Poch, I do believe some players probably campaigned to see him out. My problem with the tactics, is from an outside perspective they aren't working and they are a massive reason for our lack of chance creation and our late goals. We invite too much pressure onto ourselves, you don't need to be Barcelona to fix this problem.

Well I believe, and I might be wrong, the fear is in part coming from the management who creates a high-pressure situation, a lot of stress that leads to fear, and also he takes you out of the team if you make a mistake. This leads to risk-adverse mentality, better to kick it long than risk being caught out playing it short. Now this is a hypothesis and I might be wrong, but if it were true, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were, you actually create a paradoxical situation where what is best for your position in the team is the opposite of what is actually best for your team. You should be trying to play out more often, but to do so creates a bigger risk in your position in the team. This might be 'selfish' but it's literally linked their profession, they are paid, employees, not martyrs to fans whims. That a management problem, and if the management can't see that, (and I have been in companies where they don't where they expect you to put in work out of a sense that you should just want to work and that you are doing a 'good' thing), you get a lot of pissed of employees, high employee turnover and a worse product. These problems, just like in real life, are not actually hard to fix, just require a bit of listening.

And this goes onto broader points, you all want the same thing, but what if it's clear to you that what you are being asked to do directly contradicts with your desired outcome, it puts you in a very difficult situation, and absolutely you need to deal with that internally. If your supervisor is doing things that you perceive damaging you say that higher up the chain of command and try to come to a resolution. This is different than not putting the performance in, but yes you do make that known because sometimes changing manager is actually for the benefit of the club. On not putting in a performance, I think the players wanted to win this game, I don't think they threw the game, I believe they are low moral and don't believe in what they're doing, how does that not affect you? You can still do the hours, but it absolutely does have an effect, and anyone who says otherwise is either lying through their teeth, or is self-delusional quite frankly, maybe if you are doing data input it's not a problem, but if your work involves performance in any way it does have an effect.

rez9000 said:

So, you're acknowledging that he demonstrated competence in his management over a period.

So what changed?

Did he change? Again, we return to the 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't scenario.'

If he changed, then when he changed once again at their behest (this last week, allegedly), what then accounts for them not giving a shit tonight?

If he didn't change, then why the sudden drop off?

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Players confidence fell through the floor after that 1st pool game..
And it spiralled.. injuries for rege and gio havnt helped.
Our loss in form coincided with gios injury and joses reluctance to play dele.