Jose Mourinho

Aphex · Feb 17, 2021

Trix said:
The question of time being afforded to Jose and not Poch is simple.

Poch had lost a good number of senior players, some saying they would leave if he stayed on. It looked briefly like Jose was boarding that same boat, but in the space of a few days managed to turn all that around. Simple as that really.

Regardless, it's still incredibly concerning. We've followed up that "turnaround" with a win over WBA and two defeats. If Jose was that close to losing some players, they aren't suddently going to be running through brick walls for him. If you think about it, confidence, morale and belief in a manager isn't binary, it isn't off and on. Maybe the players feel neutral about him now, but it doesn't sound like the squad are 110% fulll steam ahead with Jose, and in sport that is the difference between win and lose.

Styopa · Feb 17, 2021

-Afri-Coy- said:
Begs the question though, is our team managed by Jose/Poch or the players? We need to be careful where we put that power. Obviously Poch didn't do himself any favors but the lads did let him down too.

I do wonder who are these senior players who seemingly downed tools for Poch and now (according to one version of events) are derailing or potentially derailing Mourinho's tenure? Rose and Dele are the obvious two I suppose. I don't know how much sway they carry in the dressing room these days. Who are the others? Kane? Lloris? Toby? Son?

Quite honestly if the so called disruptive ones are the players who are routinely singled out for criticism on this forum: your likes of Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Lucas etc. then who's going to be worried if they're agitating for moves anyway? They're mostly the players everyone's banging on about needing to sell.

yankspurs · Feb 17, 2021

So he’s said Reguilon’s still out. Thereby continuing the very worrying trend over the last however many years of our players injuries being much longer term than initially thought. His 1 or 2 week thing is on more than a month already. Lo Celso’s timeline has moved back 4 times now. It was a problem under Poch too. Are we misdiagnosing or mismanaging these? There has to be a reason for these continued issues year in & year out.

-Afri-Coy- · Feb 17, 2021

Styopa said:
I do wonder who are these senior players who seemingly downed tools for Poch and now (according to one version of events) are derailing or potentially derailing Mourinho's tenure? Rose and Dele are the obvious two I suppose. I don't know how much sway they carry in the dressing room these days. Who are the others? Kane? Lloris? Toby? Son?

Quite honestly if the so called disruptive ones are the players who are routinely singled out for criticism on this forum: your likes of Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Lucas etc. then who's going to be worried if they're agitating for moves anyway? They're mostly the players everyone's banging on about needing to sell.

I doubt its any of our performers or they would be slumping too. It could really be anyone on the team but we do know there are some obvious suspects like you said in Rose or Dele. We need to get rid asap regardless of who it is though as we cannot set the same precedent that Chelsea has with their players.

Donki · Feb 17, 2021

Trix said:
The question of time being afforded to Jose and not Poch is simple.

Poch had lost a good number of senior players, some saying they would leave if he stayed on. It looked briefly like Jose was boarding that same boat, but in the space of a few days managed to turn all that around. Simple as that really.

The question is how? Has he made promises in order to appease the players and if so will he follow through on them.

Trix · Feb 17, 2021

Aphex said:
Regardless, it's still incredibly concerning. We've followed up that "turnaround" with a win over WBA and two defeats. If Jose was that close to losing some players, they aren't suddently going to be running through brick walls for him. If you think about it, confidence, morale and belief in a manager isn't binary, it isn't off and on. Maybe the players feel neutral about him now, but it doesn't sound like the squad are 110% fulll steam ahead with Jose, and in sport that is the difference between win and lose.

Not the point I was making. No point in dragging it off on a skew. We all know what's been happening on the pitch and there is no question while results haven't come there is certainly more effort being shown, than there was at Brighton and Chelsea.

Trix · Feb 17, 2021

-Afri-Coy- said:
Begs the question though, is our team managed by Jose/Poch or the players? We need to be careful where we put that power. Obviously Poch didn't do himself any favors but the lads did let him down too.

Same at every big club. Don't kid yourself that it's not. Transfer windows and the Bosman ruling have seen to that.

Trix · Feb 17, 2021

Donki said:
The question is how? Has he made promises in order to appease the players and if so will he follow through on them.

He has taken their pets hostage, (In Dele's case his play station).

Ionman34 · Feb 17, 2021

Donki said:
The question is how? Has he made promises in order to appease the players and if so will he follow through on them.

Again, time.

Since JM said that he spoke to Dele, he's not really had the game time to show whether it's had an effect. More than a few observed that he was working hard off the ball, but still looked lethargic on it. This could be caveated by him just coming back from injury and having had little game time. We also have to appreciate that we have no idea how he's performing in training. If he's putting the effort in then I expect we'll see more and more of him.
I reckon you could say the same for Bale. He appeared to be more "up for it" against City, so maybe he's got his head straight.

We will only know, or surmise, if we see them get more game time and their performances are improved. JM isn't a mug, he's not going to leave 2 genuine game changers out if they're grafting, that's what some on here seem to find difficult to grasp.

It's a 2 way street. JM can promise them game time if they put the effort in, but they've got to put the effort in to his standard, not theirs.

-Afri-Coy- · Feb 17, 2021

Trix said:
Same at every big club. Don't kid yourself that it's not. Transfer windows and the Bosman ruling have seen to that.

I guess when you have players earning more than managers this tends to happen all the time. I am thinking from a day to day perspective where the structure is always more important than the personnel.

Donki · Feb 17, 2021

Ionman34 said:
Again, time.

Since JM said that he spoke to Dele, he's not really had the game time to show whether it's had an effect. More than a few observed that he was working hard off the ball, but still looked lethargic on it. This could be caveated by him just coming back from injury and having had little game time. We also have to appreciate that we have no idea how he's performing in training. If he's putting the effort in then I expect we'll see more and more of him.
I reckon you could say the same for Bale. He appeared to be more "up for it" against City, so maybe he's got his head straight.

We will only know, or surmise, if we see them get more game time and their performances are improved. JM isn't a mug, he's not going to leave 2 genuine game changers out if they're grafting, that's what some on here seem to find difficult to grasp.

It's a 2 way street. JM can promise them game time if they put the effort in, but they've got to put the effort in to his standard, not theirs.

Cant disagree with any of that, but if some of the players are against him and he has promised them time to appease the revolt I don't see how this changes the current situation. Trix has said its been sorted, so I feel there must be more to it than just more game time.

Everlasting Seconds · Feb 17, 2021

Trix said:
The question of time being afforded to Jose and not Poch is simple.

Poch had lost a good number of senior players, some saying they would leave if he stayed on. It looked briefly like Jose was boarding that same boat, but in the space of a few days managed to turn all that around. Simple as that really.

Plus - maybe Pochettino in fact was given time. Maybe to us fans on a forum it didn't look like he was given time, because the uncertainty around his position was really only a mainstream notion by October and by November he was gone. But our perceived timeline isn't necessarily the real timeline, and as such one could put together a decent argument for why Pochettino in fact was given time in the first place.

Gingernut · Feb 17, 2021

Everlasting Seconds said:
Plus - maybe Pochettino in fact was given time. Maybe to us fans on a forum it didn't look like he was given time, because the uncertainty around his position was really only a mainstream notion by October and by November he was gone. But our perceived timeline isn't necessarily the real timeline, and as such one could put together a decent argument for why Pochettino in fact was given time in the first place.

100% - he had time...From end of February, apart from the CL run, we were absolutely pants!

dontcallme · Feb 17, 2021

Styopa said:
I do wonder who are these senior players who seemingly downed tools for Poch and now (according to one version of events) are derailing or potentially derailing Mourinho's tenure? Rose and Dele are the obvious two I suppose. I don't know how much sway they carry in the dressing room these days. Who are the others? Kane? Lloris? Toby? Son?

Quite honestly if the so called disruptive ones are the players who are routinely singled out for criticism on this forum: your likes of Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Lucas etc. then who's going to be worried if they're agitating for moves anyway? They're mostly the players everyone's banging on about needing to sell.

Alderweireld appears to be one. He went from not playing to signing a new contract pretty quickly.

Trix · Feb 17, 2021

Styopa said:
I do wonder who are these senior players who seemingly downed tools for Poch and now (according to one version of events) are derailing or potentially derailing Mourinho's tenure? Rose and Dele are the obvious two I suppose. I don't know how much sway they carry in the dressing room these days. Who are the others? Kane? Lloris? Toby? Son?

Quite honestly if the so called disruptive ones are the players who are routinely singled out for criticism on this forum: your likes of Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Lucas etc. then who's going to be worried if they're agitating for moves anyway? They're mostly the players everyone's banging on about needing to sell.

Everlasting Seconds said:
Plus - maybe Pochettino in fact was given time. Maybe to us fans on a forum it didn't look like he was given time, because the uncertainty around his position was really only a mainstream notion by October and by November he was gone. But our perceived timeline isn't necessarily the real timeline, and as such one could put together a decent argument for why Pochettino in fact was given time in the first place.

I posted start of September he wouldn't make it to Christmas because of what was going on back of house. Was in the cards for a long time.

Everlasting Seconds · Feb 17, 2021

Trix said:
I posted start of September he wouldn't make it to Christmas because of what was going on back of house. Was in the cards for a long time.

That's right. The writing was on the wall easily by September, but not that many wanted to see it for what it was. I commented also back then that the issue wasn't that Pochettino wasn't given time. He entirely was. I mean come on, would Levy really not afford time to a manager who gets this club into CL three times in a row? The issue was what came out of that time he was given.

Gingernut said:
100% - he had time...From end of February, apart from the CL run, we were absolutely pants!

Sure. I'm not really going to try to quantify exactly when it all started, that is from when his duly deserved extra chance started. Maybe in reality it was sometime over the summer. But I agree in terms of results on the pitch, that took a nasty turn in February vs. Burnely and onwards.

sausage · Feb 17, 2021

Everlasting Seconds said:
That's right. The writing was on the wall easily by September, but not that many wanted to see it for what it was. I commented also back then that the issue wasn't that Pochettino wasn't given time. He entirely was. I mean come on, would Levy really not afford time to a manager who gets this club into CL three times in a row? The issue was what came out of that time he was given.

Sure. I'm not really going to try to quantify exactly when it all started, that is from when his duly deserved extra chance started. Maybe in reality it was sometime over the summer. But I agree in terms of results on the pitch, that took a nasty turn in February vs. Burnely and onwards.

If there's one common theme we can make, it's that a many of our managers get pissed off at how hard we try to keep then and how much time we give them.

Jol
Redknapp
AVB
Pochettino

All examples of managers who (allegedly) tried to/explored leave the club, found that their contract had a left testicle and right leg release clause, got a bit stropped about it and things went sour from there.

From memory, based on the information available at the time, it was Newcastle with Jol, England with Harry, PSG or someone with AVB (maybe Real, can't recall. End of his first season) and Man Utd with Pochettino.

Should be have done anything differently? Well, probably should have freely taken whatever compo was offered for AVB, if it were true, but that's only in retrospect. Same with players - should we only keep those who want to be here, or should be fight to keep our best even if it's to our detriment in the long term?

Gspurs11 · Feb 17, 2021

Everlasting Seconds said:
That's right. The writing was on the wall easily by September, but not that many wanted to see it for what it was. I commented also back then that the issue wasn't that Pochettino wasn't given time. He entirely was. I mean come on, would Levy really not afford time to a manager who gets this club into CL three times in a row? The issue was what came out of that time he was given.

Sure. I'm not really going to try to quantify exactly when it all started, that is from when his duly deserved extra chance started. Maybe in reality it was sometime over the summer. But I agree in terms of results on the pitch, that took a nasty turn in February vs. Burnely and onwards.

This is it, unfortunately. It's all well and good saying we should've given him more time. TBH, it looked like, and Poch acted like, he didn't want to be at the club anymore and his race was run. Something broke him after the CL football and maybe beforehand when that bad run started at Burnley where that outburst at Mike Dean was so uncharacteristic.

Everlasting Seconds · Feb 17, 2021

GRspurs11 said:
This is it, unfortunately. It's all well and good saying we should've given him more time. TBH, it looked like, and Poch acted like, he didn't want to be at the club anymore and his race was run. Something broke him after the CL football and maybe beforehand when that bad run started at Burnley where that outburst at Mike Dean was so uncharacteristic.

Yeah, that's true. Every, ok not every but many pressers were like a battle for him all of the sudden. Many of them contained a fight in some direction, Levy, fans, FA, journalists, the rain in London. To me he just seemed like he was so frustrated for many, many weeks. Then of course I think we all know how personally and emotionally he responded to the CL final. It's a shame – it's actually like it would have been better that we didn't reach the biggest game in club football. And then after the summer he was more disengaged, and unenthusiastic. What are the middler stages of grief again? Anger - denial - depression. And then ultimately acceptance, which I think we can see hints of in his pressers in November. Anyway, I'm totally rambling, my point is Pochettino deserved time, and more importantly, he was given time IMO. Does Mourinho deserve time now? For me personally, he'll have to navigate safely and maybe soundly through the upcoming EL matches.

The Doc · Feb 17, 2021

GRspurs11 said:
This is it, unfortunately. It's all well and good saying we should've given him more time. TBH, it looked like, and Poch acted like, he didn't want to be at the club anymore and his race was run. Something broke him after the CL football and maybe beforehand when that bad run started at Burnley where that outburst at Mike Dean was so uncharacteristic.

Mike Dean. Legend. Never gets old.

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