Eric Dier

Always liked Dier and I though he would be future captain of the club but all top DMs seem to be a lot faster and more agile than him. Maybe he just needs to up his fitness levels, everyone looks slower when they are tired and whole team can't run after 70th minute, that's why we drop leads. But watching him, who had a decent game, and Fabinho or Kante or Ndidi it just leaves a lot to be desired. Plenty of time until January to prove himself and get into shape though. Plus it doesn't look like there's too many better options in the market.

Whether you rate him or not, Dier was not a regular part of the team that relapsed badly since February. The CM pairing of Winks and Sissoko was at the heart of our problems, along with Poch's bizarre persistence in playing a diamond in midfield that ruined the form of all of our best players. Dier needs half a dozen games to get match sharpness back after a year of illness and problems. He also needs to lose a few kilos. But he is an intelligent player and can help Mourinho get the shape he craves for defending transitions. Two years ago I was convinced he was a future captain due to his on field intelligence, and the fight he showed when things got tough (e.g. the battle of Stamford Bridge). He does look very rusty but I will not be judging him until he has got 5 or 6 games under his belt.

spids said:

Whether you rate him or not, Dier was not a regular part of the team that relapsed badly since February. The CM pairing of Winks and Sissoko was at the heart of our problems, along with Poch's bizarre persistence in playing a diamond in midfield that ruined the form of all of our best players. Dier needs half a dozen games to get match sharpness back after a year of illness and problems. He also needs to lose a few kilos. But he is an intelligent player and can help Mourinho get the shape he craves for defending transitions. Two years ago I was convinced he was a future captain due to his on field intelligence, and the fight he showed when things got tough (e.g. the battle of Stamford Bridge). He does look very rusty but I will not be judging him until he has got 5 or 6 games under his belt.

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The one thing I’d add, regardless of what we agree and disagree on, is that when Winks first came into the team for Dier (I mean in his position at dm not his debut), the overwhelming majority of fans expressed surprised relief andwere commenting on how good it was to see us playing football again rather than the turgid non-functional excuse for it we’d been doling out. And I think that was a way before our terrible run (?) - wed been playing abysmal football a long time before results dried up and other teams caught on to us. I’m not saying this is enough, and other flaws don’t exist, or winks is right for that role, or even agreeing, but that was the consensus and I think people forget very quickly when there are new problems. We had no movement and no coherent passing whatsoever in the heart of the team And at the time, no one cared much about the defensive aspect as it was so apparent that simply having the ball more was a far more effective defensive measure than defensive mids who can’t play.

KingKay said:

Needs a run of games to get back up to speed before we judge him, I have my doubts whether he can be the DM we need though.

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Think so too. Dier needs some confidence and some games to get up to speed. As long as Wanyama is the only other real holding midfielder in the squad he will get loads of chances.

spids said:

Whether you rate him or not, Dier was not a regular part of the team that relapsed badly since February. The CM pairing of Winks and Sissoko was at the heart of our problems, along with Poch's bizarre persistence in playing a diamond in midfield that ruined the form of all of our best players. Dier needs half a dozen games to get match sharpness back after a year of illness and problems. He also needs to lose a few kilos. But he is an intelligent player and can help Mourinho get the shape he craves for defending transitions. Two years ago I was convinced he was a future captain due to his on field intelligence, and the fight he showed when things got tough (e.g. the battle of Stamford Bridge). He does look very rusty but I will not be judging him until he has got 5 or 6 games under his belt.

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Yeah, he needs plenty of time to get fully match fit. Appendicitis can be a twat, so I hope he can get back to his best.

heelspurs said:

Indeed. But he played before that. And do you remember our play before our results got concerning to everyone ie before it got so evident it could no longer be ignored even by the dimmest of the bunch? We were a shit long-balling team all of last season. The football was awful but folks kept reminding us about our best start ever, points-wise. The football was truly awful. We were hoping on Dembele coming back to help the MF that Dier was manning.

Poch made the point during his first or second season that it wasn't the results it was the underlying statistics (chances created, etc) that were looking really good. Last year was the reverse. Our general play was shit and our chances were down and we were creating nothing but we got the results.

So even when he wasn't hurt or sick or mourning or had hangnail he was below the standard necessary. And back to my point, even at his best that you can remember he was just doing a job. But feel free to come up with another argument to feel satisfied about yourself. It will still be the same, he is not and never will be good enough.

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1) The original point you made puts the blame on everyone - Dier is not solely responsible for our form, it is impossible that he is.

2) But before that, he was key to our best defensive record in my lifetime I'm sure.

Come on, you can open up. What did Dier do you? I find your tone and language quite baffling about all this.

dudu said:

1) The original point you made puts the blame on everyone - Dier is not solely responsible for our form, it is impossible that he is.

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The original 'point' I made was for folks to get serious about players that aren't good enough. The supporting point of our relegation form was to show the gravity of the situation and when dealing with folks that don't, can't, or are unwilling to recognize the reality that is happening right in front of them you have to point out incontrovertible fact. But you chose to take the internet debate back to the early 2000's and essentially 'correcting a typo' by pointing out Dier was hurt for that time. You attacked my point by scoring cheap internet points. Well done sir!

But on the flip side were you saying that the relegation form would not have occurred if Dier were present? No, you aren't saying that are you. Then what were you doing? Was it a proud moment for you? You got the ratings you were looking for.

dudu said:

2) But before that, he was key to our best defensive record in my lifetime I'm sure.

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Was he? Or was his partner more to do with it? And was the pressing from the front and general youth and energy of the team more to do with it? Put those in order of preference that you would like back and tell me where Dier falls in that list and then you will see the value of your disingenuous point.

I thought he could do the job and grow. I 'adopted' him that first year and backed his trial at DM and was happily surprised at his play. The next year, when he tried to mimic Wanyama by roaming and playing showed his shortcomings. He's not good enough and never will be for that role and we should want better.

dudu said:

Come on, you can open up. What did Dier do you? I find your tone and language quite baffling about all this.

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Wow, back to the cheap internet points. Wow, Dudu I had you pegged as a different poster. I had come to appreciate your contributions but this...this is foolish stuff.

heelspurs said:

The original 'point' I made was for folks to get serious about players that aren't good enough. The supporting point of our relegation form was to show the gravity of the situation and when dealing with folks that don't, can't, or are unwilling to recognize the reality that is happening right in front of them you have to point out incontrovertible fact. But you chose to take the internet debate back to the early 2000's and essentially 'correcting a typo' by pointing out Dier was hurt for that time. You attacked my point by scoring cheap internet points. Well done sir!

But on the flip side were you saying that the relegation form would not have occurred if Dier were present? No, you aren't saying that are you. Then what were you doing? Was it a proud moment for you? You got the ratings you were looking for.


Was he? Or was his partner more to do with it? And was the pressing from the front and general youth and energy of the team more to do with it? Put those in order of preference that you would like back and tell me where Dier falls in that list and then you will see the value of your disingenuous point.

I thought he could do the job and grow. I 'adopted' him that first year and backed his trial at DM and was happily surprised at his play. The next year, when he tried to mimic Wanyama by roaming and playing showed his shortcomings. He's not good enough and never will be for that role and we should want better.


Wow, back to the cheap internet points. Wow, Dudu I had you pegged as a different poster. I had come to appreciate your contributions but this...this is foolish stuff.

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Come on man, it was a light heart comment trying to make light of whatever it is that has gotten you so worked up about my (also) adopted son Eric Dier. You are the one calling people thick-headed and making other comments about those willing to give him a shot at refinding his form.

I think I was well within my right to call you out for your point about our relegation form in a post about Eric Dier not being good enough when he was barely a part of the team. I don't see you in any other thread calling out players that were involved in many many games of our relegation form for not being good enough. So it seems weird to be using it as a stick to beat a player that was barely involved.

Would he have made a difference? Unlikely considering no one player could have fixed our issues IMO. We can surmise that a big part of our form this season for sure was not due to a lack of talent from our squad, but a lack of hunger and a lot of mental fatigue.

Some players do indeed thrive when playing alongside others. There is nothing to say that Dier alongside someone else with Jose at the helm cannot become a very good DM. Do I think he will? I'm not sure actually, but I am not willing to write him off because of a poor season. He has been part of a very successful unit before so why not again?

And yes, I do think the pressing from the front helped out massively in the season where we were solid defensively but then let me ask you this....

Was Dier's form the cause of them stopping the press or do you think the lack of press from the front made life harder for our midfielders and subsequently caused a drop in form for our entire defensive unit?

dudu said:

You are the one calling people thick-headed and making other comments about those willing to give him a shot at refinding his form.

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So what do you call people that take forever to recognize reality? Geniuses? And that point was directed generally, not at you specifically.

finding his form? Again, you aren't reading my posts. His form in his first year at DM was still not good enough going forward. It was promising and the hope was he would improve. I state again, even if he repeated what he showed in 15/16 it wouldn't have been good enough now. It wasn't good enough and Poch brought in Wanyama the next year. And Wanyama was light years beyond anything Dier showed. Am I right? Bet your ass I am. Point, lost!!!!

dudu said:

I don't see you in any other thread calling out players that were involved in many many games of our relegation form for not being good enough. So it seems weird to be using it as a stick to beat a player that was barely involved.

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I said in the summer and previously that every player we have could be upgraded and was looking forward to it in the summer. Going back to the future with Dier is a sad reminder that we have not moved forward from a personnel perspective. And Poch paid for it (not that I didn't have my quibbles with his work).

And again, he was involved in the previous 4 months of sh*t performances but folks don't recognize it because we picked up points. We were still a sh*t long-balling team ALL of last season. Folks weren't concerned last season because we hoofed our way to the CL final. We were actually sh*t in the run in of 17-18. And I actually though Poch would get fired last season and predicted as such. It did not come to fruition but the league form more than justified it. Why did I predict it? Because he put faith in players that were not good enough. And Dier is one of those.

dudu said:

We can surmise that a big part of our form this season for sure was not due to a lack of talent from our squad, but a lack of hunger and a lot of mental fatigue.

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If you wanted to be charitable in your assessment. If you actually wanted to be objective you would ask what have the players won? And why they fell at the last hurdle everytime? Hunger? Mental fatigue? No, talent!

And I'm not one of those 'we need world class talent' people. I don't want big signings or big names. They're not needed and most are overrated because of goal contribution. I want competent players that can play a pass that isn't so far behind a player's run it puts him on his ass trying to keep in play. a player that trusts his touch such that he doesn't close his body off to play and take 3 additional touches to open himself to play thus ruining any forward momentum while also making him the trigger of all pressing triggers. A MF that anticipates runs even before other initiate them because that is what MFer's do. How many times does he have to panic under pressure for you to realize the player is not a MFer.

People going crazy of Ndombele making passes as if it's verboten from the MF FFS. It's really what MFers are s'pose to do. Yet what we have is good enough lol.

dudu said:

I'm not sure actually, but I am not willing to write him off because of a poor season.

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One poor season in which he was hurt. Just one. All the others he's looked like just what we need then?

dudu said:

Was Dier's form the cause of them stopping the press or do you think the lack of press from the front made life harder for our midfielders and subsequently caused a drop in form for our entire defensive unit?

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So you want me to give you an honest, objective answer to something when you've been biased and one-eyed in yours thus far. Really? You want honesty and obectivity in an area where you've brought nothing of the sort. C'mon man. You're trying to turn the debate away from a 'loser' of an argument. You want an honest debate I'll have it and have been doing so. You're the one playing the games.

but here's good faith: yes, of course it did but more than 1 thing can be true. Laziness up top would make it harder on any MF but that still doesn't mean he is good enough. The laziness defensively could be a sign of a lack of faith in those behind you keeping the other team out. Most don't like busting their asses in futile processes. Right?

spids said:

Whether you rate him or not, Dier was not a regular part of the team that relapsed badly since February. The CM pairing of Winks and Sissoko was at the heart of our problems

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Think you'll find Winks got injured in Feb. He was ever present for our incredible points tally run up to that point but bar one or two games at the end of feb, he was not a part of the downward spiral.

heelspurs said:

So what do you call people that take forever to recognize reality? Geniuses? And that point was directed generally, not at you specifically.

finding his form? Again, you aren't reading my posts. His form in his first year at DM was still not good enough going forward. It was promising and the hope was he would improve. I state again, even if he repeated what he showed in 15/16 it wouldn't have been good enough now. It wasn't good enough and Poch brought in Wanyama the next year. And Wanyama was light years beyond anything Dier showed. Am I right? Bet your ass I am. Point, lost!!!!


I said in the summer and previously that every player we have could be upgraded and was looking forward to it in the summer. Going back to the future with Dier is a sad reminder that we have not moved forward from a personnel perspective. And Poch paid for it (not that I didn't have my quibbles with his work).

And again, he was involved in the previous 4 months of sh*t performances but folks don't recognize it because we picked up points. We were still a sh*t long-balling team ALL of last season. Folks weren't concerned last season because we hoofed our way to the CL final. We were actually sh*t in the run in of 17-18. And I actually though Poch would get fired last season and predicted as such. It did not come to fruition but the league form more than justified it. Why did I predict it? Because he put faith in players that were not good enough. And Dier is one of those.


If you wanted to be charitable in your assessment. If you actually wanted to be objective you would ask what have the players won? And why they fell at the last hurdle everytime? Hunger? Mental fatigue? No, talent!

And I'm not one of those 'we need world class talent' people. I don't want big signings or big names. They're not needed and most are overrated because of goal contribution. I want competent players that can play a pass that isn't so far behind a player's run it puts him on his ass trying to keep in play. a player that trusts his touch such that he doesn't close his body off to play and take 3 additional touches to open himself to play thus ruining any forward momentum while also making him the trigger of all pressing triggers. A MF that anticipates runs even before other initiate them because that is what MFer's do. How many times does he have to panic under pressure for you to realize the player is not a MFer.

People going crazy of Ndombele making passes as if it's verboten from the MF FFS. It's really what MFers are s'pose to do. Yet what we have is good enough lol.


One poor season in which he was hurt. Just one. All the others he's looked like just what we need then?


So you want me to give you an honest, objective answer to something when you've been biased and one-eyed in yours thus far. Really? You want honesty and obectivity in an area where you've brought nothing of the sort. C'mon man. You're trying to turn the debate away from a 'loser' of an argument. You want an honest debate I'll have it and have been doing so. You're the one playing the games.

but here's good faith: yes, of course it did but more than 1 thing can be true. Laziness up top would make it harder on any MF but that still doesn't mean he is good enough. The laziness defensively could be a sign of a lack of faith in those behind you keeping the other team out. Most don't like busting their asses in futile processes. Right?

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Diers passing is nowhere near as bad as you are making out my friend. Your post is full of hyperbole and exaggeration. I could not be less biased and have quite simply stated that I am willing to let Mourinho work his magic on Dier.

Think we will just have to agree to disagree here.

dudu said:

Diers passing is nowhere near as bad as you are making out my friend. Your post is full of hyperbole and exaggeration. I could not be less biased and have quite simply stated that I am willing to let Mourinho work his magic on Dier.

Think we will just have to agree to disagree here.

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Agree to disagree all you'd like but you'd be wrong. Does Messi need magic worked on him? Does Sterling need magic worked on him? Does Harry need magic worked on him? Does Fernandinho need magic worked on him? No, good players don't need magic worked on them. Jose is there to fit players into his tactics. Bringing a player up to standards is not what is to be expected of a 1st team coach. they get paid millions so this is not a charity.

This is a tacit admission on your part that presently he is not good enough. So why the argument I ask? Five years hence I say move him on as even if magic is worked (and Jose is reknown for taking time to work projects into shape isn't he?) would those raw materials become Busquets? No, no they won't. He would just move to serviceable. So move him on because there is not outstanding quality to benefit from AND he doesn't count as HG. Yeah, we may like him but thems the facts.

I think Dier will flourish under JM especially as he gets fitter. JM seems to like the big defensive midfielder.
Some of our goals conceded in recent memory came from full backs being out of position and centre halves being split. Dier used to drop into that area between the two.

regardless of all the debating above, I think it's pretty clear that we need a second DM (and I doubt very much Mourinho will trust Skipp with that job). I think we'll be looking in January and I think we'll be looking for an improvement on Dier rather than a backup. It would be pretty miraculous if he were to suddenly rediscover the pace and agility he seems to have lost in the past 18 months but I'd like to be proved wrong because I like his character and personality.

Jose loves Dier for his character and personality IMO, he wants the team to embody his passion and mentality just like how he relied on Matic at Chelsea.

That said he needs to improve and I think he will under Jose but don't be surprised if we seeing him as a mainstay in the team over the next few years.

heelspurs said:

Agree to disagree all you'd like but you'd be wrong. Does Messi need magic worked on him? Does Sterling need magic worked on him? Does Harry need magic worked on him? Does Fernandinho need magic worked on him? No, good players don't need magic worked on them. Jose is there to fit players into his tactics. Bringing a player up to standards is not what is to be expected of a 1st team coach. they get paid millions so this is not a charity.

This is a tacit admission on your part that presently he is not good enough. So why the argument I ask? Five years hence I say move him on as even if magic is worked (and Jose is reknown for taking time to work projects into shape isn't he?) would those raw materials become Busquets? No, no they won't. He would just move to serviceable. So move him on because there is not outstanding quality to benefit from AND he doesn't count as HG. Yeah, we may like him but thems the facts.

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Are you saying Pep didn't turn Sterling into the player he is today?

At the end of the day dier was a unit in our best league finishes in recent years so much so that Jose wanted to spend 50 mill on him ! He is hardly going to hit the ground running after his time out but he is going to be key to Jose and his system! Pretty clear we have lacked a dm for the last year team just go through us for fun and that’s due to winks being the dm and being awful defensively! All in all dier will be a ever present fixture under Jose whether his haters like it or not ! Also clear most of his haters are big winks fans who know he will prob end up benched when ndombele is fit again

think its obvious Dier was one of the Tottenham players Jose tried to sign when he was at Chelsea / Man Utd

Mourinho will give him a go and will be interesting to see how he responds.

But as a team who are aspiring to win top honours part of me still would prefer to get a new defensive midfield player.

Dier has always been a bit limited, but Mourinho did want him before so maybe he’ll work on and improve him? ?‍

dudu said:

Are you saying Pep didn't turn Sterling into the player he is today?

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No, I am saying what i said

heelspurs said:

Does Sterling need magic worked on him?

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Sterling was damn good and damn dangerous before Pep got his hands on him but the raw materials were there. There was never a debate to be had of whether or not RS was even good enough. Surely you see the difference between these two scenarios. Pep has made him one of the first 5 names on any teamsheet in European football.

Pep has honed what was an exceptional talent/prospect but Raheem had already shown his X-factor beforehand lest you forget his time at Liverpool. But teaching someone to move into areas that magnify their threat and weaken their marks is a hell of a lot different than teaching someone to be aware in 360*.

And I've made this argument to you before, even at his best that you can remember it wouldn't be good enough. I can still see levels for Raheem to go up. There are levels to player's potential and Dier's ceiling is a hell of a lot lower than we should be looking for.

Just look at how much more you can imagine Ndombele giving us to what Dembele gave us. We know how vital Mousa was but he had no offensive ability nor much of a pass. No coach was going to coach those into him - his ceiling was lower. And I'd still take a healthy, younger Mousa back now because what he did have was unparalleled. There was something there. For Dier there is nothing there beyond the hope that he can get back to a serviceable player.

But take heart my friend as you have @Shadydan on your side of the argument. That always puts one on a good foundation to being right. His eye for a player and football mind are peerless. As such, Shady how's Chelsea doing without Hazard? And Hazard without Chelsea? Good stuff ol'boy. Keep up your consistency.