ENIC...

ENIC have been brilliant but they can and should do better .
If they are doing what they are for the good of the club and thereby the fans then that's great but if the day comes they are proved to be in it for as much money as they can get then the naysayers will be proved right that they are only doing great things for future profit.
Will the ones that have said" they have done all they can " then say they should have " gone that extra inch "namely in buying the three players we could have got last summer .
I hope that Enic prove to be great owners they are almost there with the stadium / training ground / all that's left is the reason we turn up every week the team on the field of play . Heres hoping .

buckley said:

since Martin Jol its been pretty much progression . To suggest we spend £100 million every window is not what people were asking for as anybody could see that the lack of investment was catching up with as the team had been going backwards pretty quickly .
What people were asking was last summer was the time to act and as a one off time " dare to do " so to speak and we could be here now with Dybala / Fernandes / Grealish . as I have said before all three believed they were on there way to us and had therir coats on ready to come to us . No one is saying every window spend copious amounts of money .
We as fans could see what was coming although not as bad as it is now .
The chance to cash in on reaching the champions league final was there if the guts or the will or the chance was taken I don't no which .
But someone F....d up big time and in all probability we would not be talking about the style of football Jose is playing but what team Poch would pick v wolves . It should not be "To dare is to do " but more "I wouldnt dare "

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1. Grealish was the summer window before

2. Dybala was most probably never on, or unable because of complications with his rights

3. think Fernandez never happened due to his club fucking us about keep putting the price up every time we tried

Lighty64 said:

1. Grealish was the summer window before

2. Dybala was most probably never on, or unable because of complications with his rights

3. think Fernandez never happened due to his club fucking us about keep putting the price up every time we tried

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1. Yes

2. If it was never on then why did we leak to all the Spurs press pack whilst in the Far East that we were trying to do it? Trying to hoodwink the fans or did we believe we could?

3. Sporting said it was the other way around, as usual, Levy was fucking about trying to drive down the price because he thought they were desperate and they decided to hold on and got more from United in the end.

Its funny how if you support Enic all these deals were in one way or another not really on .
When although I support ENIC I still believe they could have with the will to make them happen they would have done .
When I see how well these three players are playing I can't help thinking that for one window " if only they would dare to do " no chance .
Its funny how man unt managed to get Fernandes .
Villa managed to hold on to Grealish
The Dybala rights issue was there to be overcome with a bit more cash ,
These clubs all had the will and succeeded in there aims .
If the Ndombele deal is going to be held up as the intentions of ENIC well all I can say is I had never heard of him and I have a reasonable knowledge of foreign football and he may yet prove to be a dud .
Bergwijn and Gedson are punt rather than the real deal .Sessegnon and Clarke for the future maybe good mayn't be good .
My angst with the three players I mentioned they were readymade with no waiting till there up to speed or to see if there good enough .
Instead of all this 3 or 4 x 20 to 30 million pound players get one or two stellar good to go now players .
To dare is to do nothing.

yido_number1 said:

We've had no back up striker since Llorente left. We're also slipping backwards now and we have no guarantee of being in the top 4 again based on the teams around us being more ambitious with their playing squads. In 5 years time we might be looking back and all saying what a fluke the time under Poch was.

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Come on mate, you're better than this. Even the mightly funded Chelsea spent a season or two outside of the top 4 did they not?

Going backwards in football is part of a natural cycle. It will happen to Liverpool at some point. It happened to mightier teams than us like Man U.

The way you talk is like we are doomed for eternity when your chairman just went our and brought in one of the most expensive managers on the planet to try and fix us. Like him or not, that's a big move, one that teams who are about to disappear into oblivion don't typically make in my opinion.

buckley said:

Its funny how if you support Enic all these deals were in one way or another not really on .
When although I support ENIC I still believe they could have with the will to make them happen they would have done .
When I see how well these three players are playing I can't help thinking that for one window " if only they would dare to do " no chance .
Its funny how man unt managed to get Fernandes .
Villa managed to hold on to Grealish
The Dybala rights issue was there to be overcome with a bit more cash ,
These clubs all had the will and succeeded in there aims .
If the Ndombele deal is going to be held up as the intentions of ENIC well all I can say is I had never heard of him and I have a reasonable knowledge of foreign football and he may yet prove to be a dud .
Bergwijn and Gedson are punt rather than the real deal .Sessegnon and Clarke for the future maybe good mayn't be good .
My angst with the three players I mentioned they were readymade with no waiting till there up to speed or to see if there good enough .
Instead of all this 3 or 4 x 20 to 30 million pound players get one or two stellar good to go now players .
To dare is to do nothing.

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NDombele and GLC were wanted by Poch if reports are to believed. It doesn't matter if you had heard of him, getting the players the manager wanted is surely the baseline to measure the care of the higher ups.

Are they at fault for not doing that previously. Sure, but then you can't just ignore when they actually do it

danielneeds said:

2. If it was never on then why did we leak to all the Spurs press pack whilst in the Far East that we were trying to do it? Trying to hoodwink the fans or did we believe we could?

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my own opinion I reckon another Aguero moment without the wheelbarrow but used the sporting rights as an excuse

buckley said:

If the Ndombele deal is going to be held up as the intentions of ENIC well all I can say is I had never heard of him and I have a reasonable knowledge of foreign football and he may yet prove to be a dud .
Bergwijn and Gedson are punt rather than the real deal .Sessegnon and Clarke for the future maybe good mayn't be good .
My angst with the three players I mentioned they were readymade with no waiting till there up to speed or to see if there good enough .
Instead of all this 3 or 4 x 20 to 30 million pound players get one or two stellar good to go now players .

Click to expand...

Do you see the problem with what you are saying? That all the players we didn't sign were the good ones and all the players we did sign were the bad ones? It's a confirmation bias, pure and simple.

Had we signed the three you wanted and not signed any of the others do you not think you would be here saying the same thing switched around? That Dybala is a egotist and we should have gone for somebody more dynamic like Ndombele. That Sessegnon's position was a higher priority than Grealish's.

It's a complete fallacy to judge the merits of an owner based on the price tag of the players they sign. Look at Pepe and then look at Mahrez. Look at Morata and then look at Robertson. The price tag is not what defines the success of a player, and it's not what defines the capability of an owner.

Of course we have missed out on deals due in part to Levy and some probably entirely because of Levy. But that happens at every single football club in the world. If somebody thinks a failed transfer equals poor ownership then they need to abandon football because for any owner at any club it will be the same story.

Let's boil it down a bit. How many people who don't like Levy have said the following in the past:
We will never qualify for the CL whilst Levy is here
We will always be a feeder club whilst Levy is here
We will never reach the CL final whilst Levy is here

I would guess that most of the usual crew we see have said those things in the past. They have therefore been proven to be wrong in their opinion of what is and isn't possible when it comes to our current chairman. But does the tune change? Of course not. The desire is to moan and therefore the goal posts get moved so that the moaning can continue.

When the team is playing well you don't see the boo boys. They have very little to gripe about regarding the owners and so resort to the match thread to chat about who takes the worst free kicks or something equally pointless. But when we lose an important game, out they come with the standard lines. It's an understandable reaction but an emotional one. And when we're talking about something as grand as if our owners are good or not, letting emotion get involved isn't going to work.

It's frustrating to see our transfer targets playing well at other clubs, but isn't it nice to see Lo Celso playing well at ours. Alongside Kane, Son, Alli, etc. In our epic new stadium. Being managed by Jose Mourinho. In the Champions League.

For every missed opportunity that we can blame them for you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find a seized opportunity. And surely that is how we must judge the role of owner... do they take opportunities to move the club forward? Let's not expect them to be perfect and let's not cherry pick their decisions when judging. Let's look at the bigger picture - because that's exactly what their job is.

So your angst regarding those 3 players is fully understandable, but in my view I don't think it's justified. If you want to berate Levy for not pulling off the Dybala deal, in the same breath you are congratulating Levy for helping us get to a point where a deal for Dybala is even possible. Were Everton in for him? Or Newcastle? Or Aston Villa? No.

With that in mind let's be patient. Let's enjoy the players we have in the stadium we have. Let's enjoy matches against the European giants knowing that when we do start winning things it will be so much sweeter. And the next time you see anybody say something like "we will never win anything whilst Levy is here" do a quick search of their post history to see if you can find any of those statements above.

Lighty64 said:

my own opinion I reckon another Aguero moment without the wheelbarrow but used the sporting rights as an excuse

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I don’t really understand the benefit in making your fans think you might sign a superstar player when you have no intention of doing so.

I can understand the classic “John Cross Arsenal Warchest” story that he used to do for the club around season ticket renewal time, but getting everyone’s hopes up on deadline day just increases resentment and bad feeling towards Levy, so why would he do it?

vegassd said:

Let's boil it down a bit. How many people who don't like Levy have said the following in the past:
We will never qualify for the CL whilst Levy is here
We will always be a feeder club whilst Levy is here
We will never reach the CL final whilst Levy is here

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You forgot:

Levy has no intention of building a new stadium. It's just a scam to keep the fans quiet until ENIC sells the club.

Joely said:

Nowadays, my main hope on the ITK front is that we get news relating to ENIC selling up to owners who want to see us achieve success on the pitch. Just plain bored of ENIC, Levy, Lewis etc and the way they operated.....their main priority has never been mounting challenges for silverware and after nearly 20 years of them, it is sucking the life out of a lot of the fanbase.

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Riiiiight. Cause there a literally thousands of people with a couple of billion simply burning a hole in their pockets, just queuing up to pour millions of pounds into a club with absolutely no interest in turning a profit.

On the playing side of things I would have more faith in ENIC if I could trust that they DID have an intelligent strategy and were sticking to it.

But they to my eyes, do a lot of panic decision making and don't stick to any strategy for more than a couple of years.

They were generally appalling in the early years. The deadline day chases for Michael Ricketts...I remember a previous transfer window, when again we were desperate for a striker and Levy made his first call for Kevin Doyle to the Reading chairman at 8pm on deadline night. Reading said no chance (thankfully) and our "strategy" for that window fell apart.

I still don't know if they got lucky with Arnesen/Jol and then Pochettino or whether it was deliberate. The buying emerging talent, cos we can't compete with oil money, strategy worked wonderfully, it transformed the club. So what has happened to that strategy in the last years, we buy young players yes, but I don't see a ruthless strategy in play here. Then it was supposed to be "systems" managers who would integrate this stream of younger talent....oh panic....appoint the old skool of old skool managers Harry Redknapp instead....and back to systems managers with AVB....oh crap another panic...appoint the poorest or poor man's old skool managers Tim Sherwood.....panic...lets' get another systems manager in...Poch....bingo! five lovely years....oh, it's all gone wrong again...let's appoint possibly the most famous manager in world football for not bringing through younger players...Mourinho.

Whatever you think of each individual decision, is there a strategy here? Or does Levy just get swayed by whatever the last person he spoke to says...especially when in a panic.

There are so many examples. At one point we were told Levy was a genius, because unlike other clubs he would NEVER let a key player contract run down to its final year. it was an essential part of the strategy....hmm fast forward to the last 12 months

The two whole windows of no incoming players, does that say chairman with a clear strategy? This post is a bit of a ramble I know, I guess I am just saying I don't trust ENIC...I don't trust that they know what they are doing any more.

and so here today, Feb 2020. I don't what the "strategy" is any more. I don't know if there ever was one.

I think we have already seen an upturn in spending.

Big contracts for Son, Ali, Kane and Toby, recruiting Jose (rightly or wrongly) on £15m a year, no big players sales for years, decent player expenditure in the summer and January.

Unfortunately after years and years and years of neglect, the infrastructure of the club needed a massive, massive upgrade. We could have spent more on players and would have been absolutely fucked now if we were at the old WHL and training at Chigwell - With our revenues massively restricticted.

I get and understand people’s frustration on why Levy was not more proactive player wise when we was hitting 2nd/3rd but I have a theory our spending had to be capped because of the expenditure on the stadium which at one point, we would not have known the final bill. I bet that was massively stressful for DL !

When you borrow money (and it was a short term facility during construction remember ) from financial institutions there are agreements and financial targets that have to be met - with potentially dire consequences if you don’t. As an example, debt could have been turned to equity and ownership lost ! Levy had no choice but to be prudent at this point - literally he had no choice. Maybe the ridiculous bid for Grealish or no transfer spending for two windows is because we literally had no money (or borrowing capacity) at that time !

That borrowing and the final bill is now known and structured properly over a long period giving certainty in our business planning. So, I think with everything settled we will see sensible and a decent budget on players - remember it’s not always about spending money. And I think if we hit the heights again, you WILL see a more pro active approach to player purchasing.

DL had been an excellent custodian of our club of that there is no doubt - to suggest anything else is childish and ridiculous. We all want trophies but let’s get behind the club and see where we are in three years. We are in a good place.

I honestly believe DL deserves trophies after all the work he had put in.

And for the record, I’m no Levy can do no wrong supporter - I acknowledge he has made mistakes.

I love (sarcasm) how the view of those ‘opposed’ (for want of a better phrase) to ENIC/Levy keep using some very suspect suggestions as justification for their criticism.

I think my favourite is that Levy is only interested in profit. This is usually followed by a comparison to Liverpool, Leicester and Man City.

Does anyone truly believe that the owners of the above didn’t have profit in mind when they bought those clubs? They invested hundreds of millions of pounds for what, shits and giggles? These are serious-minded individuals who have devoted their entire lives to making as much money for themselves as they can. All of a sudden they felt like spunking a load of it away on a venture that carries enormous risk of loss?

The other trope I love is the tone by which the criticism is meted out. People speak as if Levy deliberately sought out negative outcomes for the club.

Does anyone seriously feel that Levy sat down one day and thought to himself, ‘you know what would really be fun? If I could hobble the club I run by not buying any players for three transfer windows. That would be a hoot! Because I love being in charge of a business that struggles to deliver on the football field, it’s my favourite thing!’, before leaning back in his chair and rubbing his hands together with evil relish.

People make mistakes. They judge a situation and then take a decision they think is the best course of action. They won’t always get it right, but they do intend to get it right. Some of the language employed against Levy and ENIC almost makes it sound like they’re deliberately and with malice aforethought intent on fucking over Spurs supporters.

No-one is saying (or should say) that ENIC have been perfect. And you know what? Levy himself would doubtless say the same. He is a businessman - regardless of his status as a fan or otherwise, he wants the best outcomes for his business. Success on the pitch will enhance that business and he knows that. Irrespective of any feeling he may or may not have for the club, he will want what is best for his business.

We can criticise, analyse and express opinion, but at least let’s have adult criticism, analysis and opinion.

Graysonti said:

I think we have already seen an upturn in spending.

Big contracts for Son, Ali, Kane and Toby, recruiting Jose (rightly or wrongly) on £15m a year, no big players sales for years, decent player expenditure in the summer and January.

Unfortunately after years and years and years of neglect, the infrastructure of the club needed a massive, massive upgrade. We could have spent more on players and would have been absolutely fucked now if we were at the old WHL and training at Chigwell - With our revenues massively restricticted.

I get and understand people’s frustration on why Levy was not more proactive player wise when we was hitting 2nd/3rd but I have a theory our spending had to be capped because of the expenditure on the stadium which at one point, we would not have known the final bill. I bet that was massively stressful for DL !

When you borrow money (and it was a short term facility remember ) from financial institutions there are agreements and financial targets that have to be met - with potentially dire consequences if you don’t. Mr Levy had no choice but to be prudent at this point - literally he had no choice.

That borrowing and the final bill is now know and structured properly over a long period giving certainty in our business planning. So, I think with everything settled we will see sensible and a decent budget on players - remember it’s not always about spending money. And I think if we hit the heights again, you WILL see a more pro active approach to player purchasing.

DL had been an excellent custodian of our club of that there is no doubt - to suggest anything else is childish and ridiculous. We all want trophies but let’s get behind the club and see where we are in three years. We are in a good place.

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Levy needed to communicate to the fans that the stadium build would hamstring us, not just in the years before the build, but the years after also. And particularly during when we were occupying the 2nd/3rd spots in the table.

That's why there's no trust - DL said stadium would not affect transfer spend - he didn't communicate to the fans what the reality was. The reality was and is hush hush - that the banks are in charge of our spend each window (hence the need for creative accounting). The Supporters Trust have levelled this at Levy before - Levy seems to not think it's important that fans know anything or that they wouldn't understand. I am suggesting we would have understood, if told that we had to wait a long time to see the fruits of this project. we'd have celebrated our league positions even harder.

I also don't understand why we have repeatedly hung onto our deadwood for so long, hampering our ambition. I think Njie is the only one with a quick turnaround in recent times. We are told we can't sign players because we can't move players out the club. Other top 6 clubs do not have this problem. Or was this just 'a line' aswell?

There is no trust.

As it is, I'm not sure the fruits are ever coming... Maybe they will in the summer. I'm hoping with José here that we'll start to see a bit more balls from Levy in the transfer market. Although I'm sure we'll still be signing 'opportunities' as the primary MO.

rez9000 said:

I love (sarcasm) how the view of those ‘opposed’ (for want of a better phrase) to ENIC/Levy keep using some very suspect suggestions as justification for their criticism.

I think my favourite is that Levy is only interested in profit. This is usually followed by a comparison to Liverpool, Leicester and Man City.

Does anyone truly believe that the owners of the above didn’t have profit in mind when they bought those clubs? They invested hundreds of millions of pounds for what, shits and giggles? These are serious-minded individuals who have devoted their entire lives to making as much money for themselves as they can. All of a sudden they felt like spunking a load of it away on a venture that carries enormous risk of loss?

The other trope I love is the tone by which the criticism is meted out. People speak as if Levy deliberately sought out negative outcomes for the club.

Does anyone seriously feel that Levy sat down one day and thought to himself, ‘you know what would really be fun? If I could hobble the club I run by not buying any players for three transfer windows. That would be a hoot! Because I love being in charge of a business that struggles to deliver on the football field, it’s my favourite thing!’, before leaning back in his chair and rubbing his hands together with evil relish.

People make mistakes. They judge a situation and then take a decision they think is the best course of action. They won’t always get it right, but they do intend to get it right. Some of the language employed against Levy and ENIC almost makes it sound like they’re deliberately and with malice aforethought intent on fucking over Spurs supporters.

No-one is saying (or should say) that ENIC have been perfect. And you know what? Levy himself would doubtless say the same. He is a businessman - regardless of his status as a fan or otherwise, he wants the best outcomes for his business. Success on the pitch will enhance that business and he knows that. Irrespective of any feeling he may or may not have for the club, he will want what is best for his business.

We can criticise, analyse and express opinion, but at least let’s have adult criticism, analysis and opinion.

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Yep - I can see it now

Levy - I’m going to build an absolute beast of a stadium and put an absolute shit team in it and charge the Earth - that will make brilliant business sense !! And as a plus, I fuck off all the spurs supporter.

And I’m also going to spend £15m a year on a manger to play crap football.
(Ignoring the fact he could get the Burnley manger for £4/5m)

daryl hannah said:

Levy needed to communicate to the fans that the stadium build would hamstring us, not just in the years before the build, but the years after also. And particularly during when we were occupying the 2nd/3rd spots in the table.

That's why there's no trust - DL said stadium would not affect transfer spend - he didn't communicate to the fans what the reality was. The reality was and is hush hush - that the banks are in charge of our spend each window (hence the need for creative accounting). The Supporters Trust have levelled this at Levy before - Levy seems to not think it's important that fans know anything or that they wouldn't understand. I am suggesting we would have understood, if told that we had to wait a long time to see the fruits of this project. we'd have celebrated our league positions even harder.

I also don't understand why we have repeatedly hung onto our deadwood for so long, hampering our ambition. I think Njie is the only one with a quick turnaround in recent times. We are told we can't sign players because we can't move players out the club. Other top 6 clubs do not have this problem. Or was this just 'a line' aswell?

There is no trust.

As it is, I'm not sure the fruits are ever coming... Maybe they will in the summer. I'm hoping with José here that we'll start to see a bit more balls from Levy in the transfer market. Although I'm sure we'll still be signing 'opportunities' as the primary MO.

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Maybe we couldn’t as we fought to hang on to our best players - here’s £300k a week Kane and we won’t be buying any players for three years - not good PR is it ? Sometimes you can’t tell the truth. End of.

I take some of your other points - I did say he has faults.

Graysonti said:

Maybe we couldn’t as we fought to hang on to our best players - here’s £300k a week Kane and we won’t be buying any players for three years - not good PR is it ? Sometimes you can’t tell the truth. End of.

I take some of your other points - I did say he has faults.

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You've just completely made this up.

daryl hannah said:

Levy needed to communicate to the fans that the stadium build would hamstring us, not just in the years before the build, but the years after also. And particularly during when we were occupying the 2nd/3rd spots in the table.

That's why there's no trust - DL said stadium would not affect transfer spend - he didn't communicate to the fans what the reality was. The reality was and is hush hush - that the banks are in charge of our spend each window (hence the need for creative accounting). The Supporters Trust have levelled this at Levy before - Levy seems to not think it's important that fans know anything or that they wouldn't understand. I am suggesting we would have understood, if told that we had to wait a long time to see the fruits of this project. we'd have celebrated our league positions even harder.

I also don't understand why we have repeatedly hung onto our deadwood for so long, hampering our ambition. I think Njie is the only one with a quick turnaround in recent times. We are told we can't sign players because we can't move players out the club. Other top 6 clubs do not have this problem. Or was this just 'a line' aswell?

There is no trust.

As it is, I'm not sure the fruits are ever coming... Maybe they will in the summer. I'm hoping with José here that we'll start to see a bit more balls from Levy in the transfer market. Although I'm sure we'll still be signing 'opportunities' as the primary MO.

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If you don't think building a training ground and stadium at over a billion quid would be a factor in our spending on the short term you have to be pretty thick surely? Levy said our transfer strategy wouldn't change, basically sell to buy, where is the lie here? Other clubs get rid of their deadwood quickly? I think were pretty much all the same TBH.

D’oh me all you like @Joely but you’ve not actually got a counter-argument, have you?

This is what I was talking about with my other post. Y’know, where I mentioned adult conversations...?