Eric Dier

C0YS · Jul 8, 2020

Shadydan said:
Yeah I agree with this, some fans can be horrible but unfortunately that's part and parcel of football and has been for years.

Why? Why should it be? If you read Dier's motivation, this was the point he claims he wanted to make, and I am glad he did it, because in small sense it does open up that conversation a little bit. So it was a stupid thing to do, but I'm not displeased at him for doing it.

mark87 · Jul 8, 2020

Shadydan said:
Do you think it's justified jumping into the crowd though either way because that's essentially what he did.

Yes, I would have done the exact same if I was in his position.

King of Otters · Jul 8, 2020

BringBack_leGin said:
I find this part in bold a bit extreme, he’s currently our best defender and even when off form has only ever player with commitment and passion for us. Furthermore, and I’m paraphrasing someone who knows him personally here, he’s a genuinely good person who cares about those around him. Thus person I’m referring to (West Ham fan)is heavily involved with the England side, just a normal guy, and was directly supported by Dier during an international tournament where he was having family struggles owing to being away from his wife and kids for all those weeks.

I say this because firstly I think good character is important in making a judgement on someone’s behaviour, and Dier has it in spades, and secondly because we’ve supported players who’ve done far worse. Ledley King racially abused a Pakistani doorman, Johnathan Woodgate was convicted for his part in a racial aggravated assault, and Hugo Lloris was convicted for drink driving.

Perhaps this is influenced by personal experience, but I believe a good person can slip and do a bad thing, be punished, learn from it, and continue as normal afterwards. So I personally would be upset were we to ship out a long serving player who is amongst our most important in the prime of his career because of his first mistake.

I just think it shows a fundamental lack of respect to the club who made you to think you can go wading into the stands to confront someone who your brother had physically confronted.

For that reason, I really wouldn't care one way or the other if his contract wasn't renewed and he was sold at the end of the season.

BringBack_leGin · Jul 8, 2020

King of Otters said:
I just think it shows a fundamental lack of respect to the club who made you to think you can go wading into the stands to confront someone who your brother had physically confronted.

For that reason, I really wouldn't care one way or the other if his contract wasn't renewed and he was sold at the end of the season.

If that’s your standpoint then fair enough. I just have a stones in glasshouse approach when judging people’s emotional reactions.

Stamford · Jul 8, 2020

SargeantMeatCurtains said:
I don’t know this for a fact but if you were in the crowd and you heard someone near you calling your brother a wanker and a fucking ****, would you ignore it? I don’t think it’s as cut and dry to say his brother started it if he was provoked by someone screaming abuse at his brother.

Yeah I would because I know that's part of the the atmosphere of most football grounds. I dont agree with it at all but thats the risk you take by sitting in the stands. My family were close friends with four spurs players throughout the 90s and we went to games and heard people hurling abuse at them every week. I didn't agree with it then either but I'm not going to call them out on it, if he felt that strongly go and ask a steward or sit in a box so you dont have top put up with it.

wirE · Jul 8, 2020

BringBack_leGin said:
I’m torn on this. On the one hand this season is unlikely to be anything more than a glorified pre season for the next, so let’s lose him now and have him back for the new season, but then we might have a shot of doing something and he’s getting better in that role every game, so even if it delays the ban, do so as by the new season we’ll have had pre season training to look at defensive shake, a fit again Tanganga and perhaps even a new centre back.

I’m comfortable with whatever the club decide.

Good point but I'd like him to play against Arsenal this weekend. As mentioned, after the break he has been really good imho. Toby and him looked like a good pairing at the back. We sure need his fighting spirits going up against a Arsenal team that's been better after the break I would say

agrdavidsfan · Jul 8, 2020

Just read he’s been fined more than every club who has been charged with racism ?

PLTuck · Jul 8, 2020

Unpopular opinion here but I say good on him. Some "fans" get away with far too much at grounds, which if it were to happen in the street would be a criminal offence.

SpartanSpur · Jul 8, 2020

Saoirse said:
I think there's two factors to be considered there. Firstly, they're probably right to say that the bloke had an incentive to feel threatened. While you're obviously not meant to lie to the police, they're literally never going to be able to prove whether you felt a certain way or not - it's risk-free and has some tangible benefit. Secondly though, he's not the only one to consider here. It may well have scared other fans in the area, and indeed an elderly fan was pushed out of harm's way. As a disabled person (still able to sit in the normal areas rather than the wheelchair/ambulant spaces), the sight of a huge professional footballer charging up the rows heading towards a nasty-looking confrontation, with me not able to get out of the way quickly, would certainly have been threatening, and the same applies to e.g. women, children and the elderly.

I can appreciate that being the case. However by the same token they also can't know for sure that Dier had threatening intentions either. He certainly didn't lash out when he reached the fan. In all likelihood his initial thought was to pull his brother out of the situation, and then turned to trying to educate the fan in question.

I think it's due to the reasons you mentioned above a punishment had to be made, just to try and deter players from entering the crowd in that way in future. Simply can't happen regardless of how sympathetic I am to Eric's reasons for doing so.

Japhet · Jul 8, 2020

Saoirse said:
Full report available here. Interesting points:

It was Dier's brother who started the physical confrontation, not the fan

The case was delayed at Dier's request as he attempted to gain access to materials from a police interview for evidence

Gareth Southgate gave an unsolicited and extremely positive character reference

Crucially, there was a point where the abusive spectator and Dier's brother had left in totally different directions. The spectator was also apologising to Eric both verbally and with his body language. Eric admits choosing to pursue him rather than leaving the stands or searching for his brother, insisting that he just wanted to talk - but the panel fairly concluded that this was unlikely to be amicable and that the fan was trying to avoid any further confrontation and had fled to the exit. This seems to be why they've found him guilty of threatening rather than merely improper behaviour.

A comparison was made that had Dier pursued a player in the same way off the ball, he would have been sent off and banned. Entering the stands makes this more serious, and therefore a 6-game ban was the starting point before mitigating circumstances (e.g. the abuse received and the fact he did initially enter the stands out of concern for his brother) was considered.

https://thefa.sharefile.com/share/view/sd2caaeacf494b8aa

I think the 'fan' might have said something to make it kick off - just a guess.

spursfan77 · Jul 8, 2020

PLTuck said:
Unpopular opinion here but I say good on him. Some "fans" get away with far too much at grounds, which if it were to happen in the street would be a criminal offence.

I admit a couple of years ago I used to get very sweary but have cut it out now or reduced it a lot. It might make you feel better at the time but also can make you look a bellend more often than not.

Everlasting Seconds · Jul 8, 2020

"Hi, this is the FA, we have once again made up sanctions on the fly in compliance with no former ruling or sanction, just like we always do. Love, the FA".

C0YS · Jul 8, 2020

spursfan77 said:
I admit a couple of years ago I used to get very sweary but have cut it out now or reduced it a lot. It might make you feel better at the time but also can make you look a bellend more often than not.

Also, no problems with swearing, just don't make it personal, it's not that hard. You can criticise their performance, for me even saying something like 'you're fucking shit' is largely ok, because it's a statement on footballing ability, what's not ok is to direct specific hate at someone. As always, as long as you're playing the ball its all game.

Marty · Jul 8, 2020

C0YS said:
Also, no problems with swearing, just don't make it personal, it's not that hard. You can criticise their performance, for me even saying something like 'you're fucking shit' is largely ok, because it's a statement on footballing ability, what's not ok is to direct specific hate at someone. As always, as long as you're playing the ball its all game.

It's not though

You're fucking shit is an attack on person, you're playing like shit is an attack on performance, regardless of context.

Shadydan · Jul 8, 2020

mark_2017 said:
Yes, I would have done the exact same if I was in his position.

Well then I think you should expect to get a ban in that case, that wouldn't be justifiable by the club in any way shape or form and if you cannot expect to keep your temper in check then maybe your family going to the game isn't the best idea.

JUSTINSIGNAL · Jul 8, 2020

King of Otters said:
I just think it shows a fundamental lack of respect to the club who made you to think you can go wading into the stands to confront someone who your brother had physically confronted.

For that reason, I really wouldn't care one way or the other if his contract wasn't renewed and he was sold at the end of the season.

Jesus that's a bit extreme.

The guy was obviously feeling emotional after we had just been knocked of the FA Cup by Norwich and some dickhead abusing him from the stands decides to try and fight his brother. He wasn't right for jumping into the stands but I can totally understand why he happened.

Shadydan · Jul 8, 2020

C0YS said:
Why? Why should it be? If you read Dier's motivation, this was the point he claims he wanted to make, and I am glad he did it, because in small sense it does open up that conversation a little bit. So it was a stupid thing to do, but I'm not displeased at him for doing it.

It's not that it should be but that's the way it is.

Dier running into the crowd isn't suddenly going to stop abuse from the stands.

Saoirse · Jul 8, 2020

SpartanSpur said:
I can appreciate that being the case. However by the same token they also can't know for sure that Dier had threatening intentions either. He certainly didn't lash out when he reached the fan. In all likelihood his initial thought was to pull his brother out of the situation, and then turned to trying to educate the fan in question.

I think it's due to the reasons you mentioned above a punishment had to be made, just to try and deter players from entering the crowd in that way in future. Simply can't happen regardless of how sympathetic I am to Eric's reasons for doing so.

Fully agree with that, I really don't think he had any threatening intention at all. But people feeling threatened was a reasonably foreseeable consequence of his actions.

Japhet said:
I think the 'fan' might have said something to make it kick off - just a guess.

He definitely did, but that doesn't remotely excuse turning it into a physical confrontation

spursfan77 · Jul 8, 2020

Not appealing (in any way ?)

C0YS · Jul 8, 2020

Marty said:
It's not though

You're fucking shit is an attack on person, you're playing like shit is an attack on performance, regardless of context.

Depends, if the implied sentence ends with you're shit (at football). I guess it's still personal, but to what extent is it abusive language. It's a discussion worth having. It's not nice, but does it cross a line?

Similarly, what is the implied message is important. If it's a chant and is more sort of playful colourful footballing language it's a very different thing right. Football acts very much a pressure valve, a sort a ritual of aggression and many other things, and the lines can be blurred very easily, but there is a difference between what is acceptable to say in the context of football and outside it. Because it can't all be taken at face value. But things unrelated to theatre of football should be kept out.

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