Is there a way back this time?

BuckeyeSpurs11 · Jul 10, 2020

The major issue hasn't been investment - look at this past summer. It's that for the previous 2 years there was no major investments when it was time to really kick on and establish ourselves at a perennial contender. We spent around 60m euros on both Lo Celso, Ndombele this summer, Sessegnon for real money and nearly signed Dybala. Then went and spent 30m on Bergwijn. We needed a window like that right after we finished 2nd like Liverpool had when they went close and added Allisson + Fabinho.

dtxspurs · Jul 10, 2020

marc aron said:
The major issue hasn't been investment - look at this past summer. It's that for the previous 2 years there was no major investments when it was time to really kick on and establish ourselves at a perennial contender. We spent around 60m euros on both Lo Celso, Ndombele this summer, Sessegnon for real money and nearly signed Dybala. Then went and spent 30m on Bergwijn. We needed a window like that right after we finished 2nd like Liverpool had when they went close and added Allisson + Fabinho.

So the problem has been investment...

wrd · Jul 10, 2020

dtxspurs said:
So the problem has been investment...

I knew that’d get picked apart, I think his point was the major issue was investment at the right moments

Matthew · Jul 10, 2020

i think id be happy to go back to the hungry up and coming players if we could regain our identity, and play with some style. alas i think we're cooked and had our " moment" when we needed to invest and keep the machine going, poor recruitment and lack of tweaks to the squads have made our once " title challengers" pressing, looking like we could score 3/4 every game, reduced to a shell of a team, tryimg to hold on to the cot tails of wolves and sheff utd, to scrape into europa.

Monkey boy · Jul 10, 2020

Matthew said:
i think id be happy to go back to the hungry up and coming players if we could regain our identity, and play with some style. alas i think we're cooked and had our " moment" when we needed to invest and keep the machine going, poor recruitment and lack of tweaks to the squads have made our once " title challengers" pressing, looking like we could score 3/4 every game, reduced to a shell of a team, tryimg to hold on to the cot tails of wolves and sheff utd, to scrape into europa.

unless we change the manager then we will never get what you’re looking for. He refuses to play young players and his style of play is as far from exciting as you’ll ever likely get so it’s over to Mr.Levy in that regards.

Matthew · Jul 10, 2020

Monkey boy said:
unless we change the manager then we will never get what you’re looking for. He refuses to play young players and his style of play is as far from exciting as you’ll ever likely get so it’s over to Mr.Levy in that regards.

thing is, he's inherited a terrible squad at a terrible time. id personally give him next season ( unless it stays like this, in regards to playing style etc) and then judge him.

Monkey boy · Jul 10, 2020

Matthew said:
thing is, he's inherited a terrible squad at a terrible time. id personally give him next season ( unless it stays like this, in regards to playing style etc) and then judge him.

I’m of the same opinion as you in that I’ll give him the summer transfer window and next season and see where we are but my point still stands in that if you want or expect young hungry players playing entertaining football then we have the wrong guy in charge as that’s not and never has been his MO.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Jul 10, 2020

mpickard2087 said:
To be honest I've always subscribed to the thought that you're never as a good as you think you are in the good times, but never as bad as it seems when things take a dip.

Unless you’re Liverpool........in which case, you are every bit as good as you think you are and never as bad as the best other team in the world ever.

Everlasting Seconds · Jul 10, 2020

You sell your best player without telling the Portuguese manager. In fact you specifically promise not to sell him.
You buy seven new players, and market each player's story to the press as if they are this amazing world beater that only you knew about.
Results slide, but you keep the Portuguese manager for long enough until you are sure the fans will allocate all blame to him.
Then you sack the Portuguese manager when he disliked the most, and bring in some random fella who can't speak English properly.
Then, out of nowhere, literally, a world star is born in your youth system, which solves the old problem of not being able to sign a striker.
You realise you once again bailed your self out due to pure, dumb luck.
You hang on to the good times, but cap it at CL participation. There's no desire to ever achieve more.
And then you repeat.

fishhhandaricecake · Jul 10, 2020

SUIYHA said:
December 2003 - A run of defeats ending with a loss at home to Charlton meant we ended the calendar year in the bottom three. An absolute shambles of a squad left by Hoddle being managed by David Pleat featuring a complete lack of pace, players like Anderton, Poyet, Redknapp and Ziege all way past their prime and players like Doherty and Postiga were clearly nowhere near good enough. We only just avoided relegation this season and finished with literally half the number of points Arsenal did. But we did have Ledley King and Robbie Keane to build a team around. We added Jermain Defoe and Paul Robinson. We overhauled our management structure in 2004 with Arnesen and Jol and brought a fresh approach to the team. We then signed Michael Carrick, Michael Dawson, Aaron Lennon and finally Edgar Davids, and suddenly we had a hungry young side, full of talented players with a couple of experienced heads to lead the way. Within two years of that disaster of a season we were competing for a Champions League place and would have even finished above that Arsenal side who doubled our points tally had we not eaten that dodgy lasagne.

October 2008 - Two points from eight games. We'd lost at home to Hull and Sunderland, and away to Middlesbrough and Stoke. We'd sold Berbatov, Keane and Defoe to replace them with Bent, Pavyluchenko and Frazier Campbell and had scored just five goals in those opening eight games. Out of our other new summer signings, David Bentley appeared to be an expensive showpony, Luka Modric looked too lightweight for English football and Heurelho Gomes was the laughing stock of the league. King couldn't stay fit. Dawson and Lennon on a major decline and not living up to their potential, nor was Bale who looked completely lost at left-back. Zokora, O'Hara, Hutton, Gunter - clearly nowhere near good enough. We'd been top five regulars for the last few seasons but now people thought we'd fucked it, and with Manchester City now becoming the next oil rich club our chances of getting back to where we were looked bleak. Then Redknapp came in and immediately our fortunes turned around - once he figured out how to get the best out of Modric, Lennon and Dawson and how to manage King's fitness, he brought back Keane and Defoe before adding a bit of steel to the midfield with Palacios and a bit of flair with Kranjcar. Finally, Bale then stepped up to the plate, and within two years - we were playing Champions League football for the first time.

March 2014 - After coming 4th, 5th, 4th in the previous three seasons, we'd fallen apart. Modric was gone. King was gone. Van Der Vaart was gone. Now even Bale was gone. And we'd spent the money on Paulinho, Capoue, Chiriches, Soldado and Chadli. Lamela couldn't even get onto subs bench, nobody knew where he was or what had happened to our record signing. We lost twice to Arsenal, 4-0 to Chelsea, 5-1 to Man City, 4-0 to Liverpool and 3-1 at home to Benfica in a short space of time - it felt like every single big game we got completely outclassed. Arsenal and Liverpool were rejuvenated and playing great football near the top of the league and we had Tim fucking Sherwood. Vertonghen and Lloris looked like they didn't want to be there. Rose and Walker looked like rabbits in the headlights. Lennon, Dawson, Kaboul and Sandro's careers were all nosediving. It didn't look good - even Everton were doing better than us and it felt like we needed an entirely new side. Then this awkward looking striker from our youth team started scoring goals and this young "out of his depth" manager at Southampton was brought in. He initiated a high pressing game, gave young players like Kane, Bentaleb and Mason a chance whilst developing Rose, Walker and Eriksen into some of the best players in the league. We then made a couple of subtle additions in Alli, Alderweireld, Son and Wanyama, and once again, within two years, we were better than ever before - challenging for the title for the first time in decades.

Levy has overseen three turnarounds from what looked like a position of no hope. Maybe he got lucky, that's a discussion for another day, but can it be done a fourth time? Are the raw materials there that, with the right manager, coaching and acquisitions, we could turn ourselves back into title challengers again within two years? What would need to happen and who do we need to build our team around? Even Mourinho himself said upon his appointment that he felt we could win the league next season. Bearing in mind the current football landscape and available budgets, is there a way back for us now?

What a brilliant and interesting post.
This is to be honest why I and many others are losing hope because it seems that we do well on the pitch more by luck than judgement.

I think we can 'turn it around' but what makes it even more challenging is the fact that Covid struck so we have no income so our already limited funds are further limited whilst our rivals are all on an upward trajectory. There was a 10 year period where there were about 4-5 seasons where a lot of the traditional 'big4' were not at the peak of their powers or were on a downward trajectory and we missed a HUGE opportunity to win the league during that time.
Man.U - since Fergie left until this season they've been woeful
Liverpool - until two season ago we finished above them 6/7 seasons
Chelsea- are a bit of a yo-yo team but they had a transfer ban after Conte and were/are re-building
Man.City - Ok they've mostly been on an upward trajectory
Arsenal - towards the end of Wenger reign and under dracular they were very average

Now all of these teams are on the up, added to that Leicester are on the up they're not just a one season wonder club anymore, Wolves have a very clear plan, Everton are investing heavily and have Anchelotti so we've really missed a very good opportunity to really capitalise.

I see why Levy went for Jose it was a gamble, he is a 'winner' but honestly that and the negligence of squad management have got us to this mess, Jose is just not the right fit for Tottenham, his football stinks and his methods are outdated. To 'find a way back' this time will be very difficult as we climbed right to the top of the mountain under Poch and it aint easy getting back there.

We need to really do the following and i'm not sure many of these things will happen at least not in the short term:

Squad re-build but with decent young signings of actual quality and ideally British as we lack homegrown numbers and that was the identity which was working for us over the years with signings like Bale, Jenas, Defoe, Dawson, Walker, Rose, Dier etc
- New RB
- New CB
- New LB
- New DM
- New CM
- New AM
- New Back-up ST
We also need to cut our losses with Jose asap and get in a young manager with a positive philosophy to bring some joy back to the fans and the players and the key here is to really pick a good one and properly back them with players that will suit their style of play
We need Levy to step away from the football side of the business and to overhaul our scouting network and transfer committee as far too many of our bigger money signings are wide of the mark.
Ideally we should hire a DofFootball who will compliment the new manager

I'm quite disillusioned now to be quite honest, watching this football we are serving us is killing any love for the club. I was all for giving Jose a chance but this is just not Spurs and playing like this we will win fuck all so we need to cut our losses and get the new man in BUT they have to be the right choice like Poch was and they have to be backed and our scouting for youth and 1st XI players has to improve as does our transfer dealings and squad management.

Take a club like Wolves they've shown what getting a good young progressive manager in + a philosophy of playing and signing players to match that can bring success and progression. Man.City for all their millions they got the right quality and character of players in to suit how Pep wanted to play, same with Klopp and now the same with Man.U, since Fergie left they had no plan and their transfer dealings were all over the place. Ole has come in and said lets go back to the roots and DNA of our club and sign young mainly british players with a combination of world class international talent e.g. Wan Bisakka, Maguire, D.James, B.Fernandes and suprise suprise they look amazing again. Too many clubs have business people too heavily involved in the FOOTBALL decisions. I genuinely think if Harry Redknapp even had been given better players than Nelson & Saha in that January that good old arry could've mounted a title challenge with us, he to an extent was able to bring in players he wanted like Crouch, Kranckjar, Corluka, Defoe, Parker etc you laugh oh Harry and his same players again but he got us from 20th to a CL quarter final and that January we got Saha and Nelson we were 3rd and right on the heels of the top 2, if the England job hadn't have gotten in the way I think he could've carried to be very successful with us if we'd backed him properly but Levy never trusted him. The fast forward to Poch, he rescuses us from a mess of a team and squad to having a proper identity, connects with the fans, gets up believing again (best times at the lane in that final season ever), but even he didn't quite get backed the way he'd have liked and then he emotionally and phyiscally ran out of steam which is fair enough, I couldn't take one day working with Levy never mind 5 years.

So can we turn it around... YES, will we... I wouldn't hold out too much hope, I think we have seriously fucked it for at least another year until we can get rid of Jose but even then unless we change the structure of the FOOTBALL side of the club, it will just be groundhog day again.

COYS

fishhhandaricecake · Jul 10, 2020

homer hotspur said:
There is now so much wrong that you know it can't possibly be a quick fix and the prospect of next season is very concerning,, given our inevitable lack of worthwhile transfer activity in the summer.
JM can't be totally blamed for the situation but ,what is clear, is that he is not the man to put things right. I think we will probably stick with him, have a dreadful start to next season and be forced to make a change before Christmas. I think the league will only get harder next season and am more concerned by the clubs below us at the moment. Southampton seem to have joined the growing list of them who look far better than us now.

You could say we are getting what we deserve to be quite honest.
Levy out, Jose out.

Japhet · Jul 10, 2020

I'd rather rebuild once with a progressive Manager who'll stick around for a while than rebuild once under Mourinho then rip it up and start again when he inevitably shits the bed and leaves us in disarray in a year or 2. Not going to happen though because we're stuck with him now.

Thewobbler · Jul 10, 2020

Its hard to take whats happened to the club. We've let our rivals, who we spent many years trying to over take, get above us again.

Chelsea and utd both heading in the right direction. Good thing for us is the arsenal chairman doesnt like spending his money and hopefully the covid era will see him close his wallet. If they backed arteta he could do good things for them.

This window is massive but I cant see us doing much business.

Sp3akerboxxx · Jul 10, 2020

We need 4 new defenders and a new DM.

homer hotspur · Jul 10, 2020

Sp3akerboxxx said:
We need 4 new defenders and a new DM.

And of course a couple of back up strikers ( hopefully inc Parrot)

TorontoYid · Jul 10, 2020

A couple of seasons ago we were one of the strongest teams in the Premier League and the only reason we didn't win anything was lack of depth. There was just too big a gap between the quality of our first team and our reserves but even so, only City were stronger than us, and we still beat them and Liverpool were on par. Then the season finished and all the top teams strengthened but we didn't really do anything but rest on the team that fell just short. The following season we still looked like contenders but the same thing happened and then we did even less buying nobody to bolster a struggling defense and worn out Harry Kane. The solution was to fire the manager and bring in a new one.

I am not convinced that JM is a better option than Poch but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. This season is a write off and if we don't start spending we will just undo all the work Poch did and be back to mid table obscurity

GutBucket · Jul 10, 2020

Keep the wallet tight until new TV deal in 2022, and hope world economy recovers by then. Sign one or two shiny toys every 2 years or so for the next 20 years until the stadium is built, be just good enough to have people paying tickets and don't worry about trophies. Basically do what Arsenal did with their stadium. That's the plan I think. We will get our versions of Ozil, Lacazette, PEA but mostly not spend up to our potential and be irrelevant compared to Liverpool, United, City and Chelsea. Maybe we luck out in academy and get top 4.

BuckeyeSpurs11 · Jul 10, 2020

dtxspurs said:
So the problem has been investment...

we invested 150m last summer, almost another 70 with Dybala. It was when we chose to invest, not how much. the money seemed to always be there.

ShaunL84 · Jul 10, 2020

marc aron said:
we invested 150m last summer, almost another 70 with Dybala. It was when we chose to invest, not how much. the money seemed to always be there.

Almost... Just like almost with Moutinho, just like almost with Aguero, just like almost with Hazard, just like almost with Rossi, just like almost with Forlan, just like almost with Willian.

JayB · Jul 10, 2020

We need to stick or twist. For me, sticking means giving Mourinho full backing and investing what is necessary in order to resolve the obvious deficiencies in the squad. Twisting would mean an acknowledgment that the current squad is unsalvageable and looking to revert to our pre-Poch model of selling top players and reinvesting the fees in the next crop of young talents to slowly build up a project. The problem is that either one of those paths is going to require considerable investment.

Years of poor squad management have left us needing at least four or five quality additions (a top DM, back-up striker, fullbacks, arguably CB) in order to get the current group back in contention with the squads at Liverpool, City, Chelsea, and United. That's not going to be cheap.

The "project" approach, on the other hand, is something that Mourinho himself is woefully ill-suited to. He's never been a project manager and there's nothing to suggest that he can become one overnight. He wasn't brought in on that basis, he was brought in because Levy thought the squad was good enough and just needed a change of manager, and that's been shown to be wildly incorrect. If we were to make an attempt of starting over and building around a crop of young talents, we're almost certainly going to need a different manager. With three years remaining at 15m per year, buying Mourinho out of his contract and bringing in a young progressive manager would itself require a big investment.

We all know that spending is anathema to Levy, who stubbornly insists that splashing the cash is not the means by which to achieve success. Yet we're in a position where the actual footballing side of the club has been so horribly mismanaged in recent years that spending, either by backing Mourinho or by going a different route, is now necessary. I fear that the middle path of keeping Mourinho and supplying him with mediocre budget-rate solutions to the holes in the squad is the course of action that Levy is by far the likeliest to take, and is also the course of action that seems least likely to actually produce results.

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