Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

Johnny J · Aug 24, 2020

If the ITK is true, and I choose to believe it is given multiple sources, then what a fucking mess, and so typically Spurs that our mega signing has turned out to be such a problem. If he doesn't want to play for us then he can fuck off out of the club, I just hope we get decent money and reinvest sensibly.

What a shame. But talent is nothing without hard work, and it sounds like his attitude is absolutely appalling.

sausage · Aug 24, 2020

Amo said:
Dunno when I hear entourage in a football context I instantly associate it with black players and 10 hoodied folks loitering on a street corner leaning against a Cadilac ambiguously enough that it's not immediately clear whether they are in fact dealing drugs.

In all seriousness, there are racial connotations to the word that make uncritical or unthinking use of it in journalism sit rather uneasy with me.

I mean, you could have gone for the most obvious context of "French player, French word". It means 'to surround', e.g. the people surrounding another.

Or, perhaps, the long running US TV show starring some very white folk.

I imagine it might not be popular to say, but it's best not to project your own associations as the negative thoughts of other people. It's all kinds of wrong.

Nine while nine · Aug 24, 2020

JayB said:
Brozovic is arguably world class in the role that Winks played yesterday, sitting as the deepest midfielder and dictating play. I hadn't really thought he would make any sense with us having bought Hojbjerg, but if Hojbjerg is going to be tasked with hunting the ball down as opposed to maintaining positional discipline it's a different story. As a short-term move I have little doubt that swapping him for Ndombele would improve us given that Jose is unlikely to select a player who can't be arsed to apply himself.

I quite like the idea of a CM partnership comprising Bro and Hø.

But which would you put ahead of the other?

It's a dilemma as old as time.

DJS · Aug 24, 2020

Nine while nine said:
I quite like the idea of a CM partnership comprising Bro and Hø.

But which would you put ahead of the other?

It's a dilemma as old as time.

No brainier, it’s always Bro before Hø.

joey55 · Aug 24, 2020

walworthyid said:
Its not our fans specifically, its a general idea that players of colour are often branded as "lazy" and always seem to have an "entourage" that is somehow encouraging them to have a "poor attitude" etc. These are not things exclusively aimed at players of colour, but they are almost always aimed at foreign players and generally non-white foreign players. It fits a narrative that is rolled out by the media that nobody is quite like the good old, honest and hardworking, white, working class British footballer.

I think with all these things, you've really got to consider if you are being influenced by conformation bias and if any group would benefit from it and thus have an agenda to put the idea in your head to start with.

So often I've seen agents blamed when players want to move. Fans don't want to accept a player wants to leave their club, so they say things like "he needs to get rid of his agent, as he's pushing for a move." The whole entourage thing is a similar phenomenon. Fans don't want to think it's the player causing trouble, so again look to blame outside influence. It's common for foreign players to have several advisors (agents, family, close friends etc), so calling them an entourage makes sense, especially as fans want to speak of them in a derogatory manner, which they naturally do when the players actions aren't what they'd want them to be. It's also more likely that foreign players would have problems adapting. So when you think about it, it makes sense that there would be more want away stories with foreign signings and thus more opportunity for fans to blame those around them. But sadly we currently live in a society where we a deliberately discouraged from thinking about these things and encouraged to make a certain type of conclusion.

If anything, fans look to scapegoat agents and now entourages, because they want to see the player himself in a more positive light. They want to see the player as the victim of poor influence of others. It's not because they are bigoted etc, but because they have emotionally invested in the player himself and don't want to think he's rejecting them. It's not bigoted or arrogant, it's just a simple case of wanting to find someone or others, to blame, rather than the player they have or had so much hope in. It's totally innocent, yet there is a really sinister desire by certain groups in society, to actively encourage people to see things in far more unpleasant terms. I think that's what's happened here with you. There is nothing to this, but I understand why you've made those assumptions as we are definitely encouraged to do so.

As for the lazy thing, again, only when applying confirmation bias could this be seen as a race issue. Fans and the players themselves are encouraged to see it in those terms, but it's one of the easier claims to dismiss. You only have to browse through this thread to read of many white players that were labelled lazy. I'd say the likes of Ndidi and Kante are seen as the hardest working players in the Prem, but groups with certain agendas would never mention that. They'd just find examples of when black players have been called "lazy" and claim it's a common trope and few, if any, in the media would have the courage to argue against it for fear of being "cancelled." Fans start to accept it and then look out for it. This issue with NDombele, being a perfect example.

NDombele got called lazy for being lazy. The video posted of Jamie Carragher analyzing his game highlights why he's seen as lazy. He simply wasn't showing for the ball. He couldn't be bothered to give the CB's an option. He could be a purple skinned, Yorkshireman and he'd still be described as "lazy."

Indacupfortottenham · Aug 24, 2020

Ffs we just don’t do record signings very well do we! Can kind of understand why Levy is seemingly reluctant to go for these types of deals when 9 times out of 10 the price isn’t justified and they don’t live up to the hype - so we end up with option b,c, or d instead.
Modric is about the only successful one I can think of in recent times.

walworthyid · Aug 24, 2020

joey55 said:
I think with all these things, you've really got to consider if you are being influenced by conformation bias and if any group would benefit from it and thus have an agenda to put the idea in your head to start with.

So often I've seen agents blamed when players want to move. Fans don't want to accept a player wants to leave their club, so they say things like "he needs to get rid of his agent, as he's pushing for a move." The whole entourage thing is a similar phenomenon. Fans don't want to think it's the player causing trouble, so again look to blame outside influence. It's common for foreign players to have several advisors (agents, family, close friends etc), so calling them an entourage makes sense, especially as fans want to speak of them in a derogatory manner, which they naturally do when the players actions aren't what they'd want them to be. It's also more likely that foreign players would have problems adapting. So when you think about it, it makes sense that there would be more want away stories with foreign signings and thus more opportunity for fans to blame those around them. But sadly we currently live in a society where we a deliberately discouraged from thinking about these things and encouraged to make a certain type of conclusion.

If anything, fans look to scapegoat agents and now entourages, because they want to see the player himself in a more positive light. They want to see the player as the victim of poor influence of others. It's not because they are bigoted etc, but because they have emotionally invested in the player himself and don't want to think he's rejecting them. It's not bigoted or arrogant, it's just a simple case of not wanting to find someone or others to blame, rather than they player they have or had so much hope in. It's totally innocent, yet their is a really sinister desire by certain groups in society, to actively encourage people to see things in far more unpleasant terms. I think that's what's happened here with you. There is nothing to this, but I understand why you've made those assumptions as we are definitely encouraged to do so.

As for the lazy thing, again, only when applying confirmation bias could this be seen as a race issue. Fans and the players themselves are encouraged to see it in those terms, but it's one of the easier claims to dismiss. You only have to browse through this thread to read of many white players that were labelled lazy. I'd say the likes of Ndidi and Kante are seen as the hardest working players in the Prem, but groups with certain agendas would never mention that. They'd just find examples of when black players have been called "lazy" and claim it's a common trope and few, if any, in the media would have the courage to argue against it for fear of being "cancelled." Fans start to accept it and then look out for it. This issue with NDombele, being a perfect example.

NDombele got called lazy for being lazy. The video posted of Jamie Carragher analyzing his game highlights why he's seen as lazy. He simply wasn't showing for the ball. He couldn't be bothered to give the CB's an option. He could be a purple skinned, Yorkshireman and he'd still be described as "lazy."

You make some interesting points. Certainly, I am not saying for one moment that players of colour are exclusively referred to as lazy. Or that when it is done, it is overtly racist in nature. Not at all. Ndombele is labelled as lazy because he is. Not just on the pitch but clearly also in training and his nutrition.

As I have said, I was actually talking about the "entourage" and "poor attitude" which seems to often be trotted out. What I am saying is that these types of characterisations are often made about players of colour, not exclusively, just frequently.

JonnySpurs · Aug 24, 2020

There’s no point over thinking this one. Ndombele came here off the back of conversations with Poch, who convinced him that this was the place to be. A few months later Poch was gone and we were playing poorly. Partner that with Tanguy’s mercurial nature and lack of application and you have a perfect storm.

The club isn‘t at fault here, nobody is really except for the player who, if he were more professional, would get his head down, work hard and be part of the turn around. Instead he clearly just can’t be bothered.

He’s not the first player to be like this and he won’t be the last. Capable of being one of the best players in world football but almost certainly won’t be without the right attitude to go with it.

I’ll take a less talented player with actual work rate, a positive attitude and a team player. I’ve got absolutely no time for this saga anymore and I don’t think the club do either.

Time to part ways.

nedley · Aug 24, 2020

sage said:
Tuchel just said in his post-match interview how critical it is for them to reinforce their team this transfer window. Not sure where Ndombele would fit in this PSG team tbh, but hopefully they'll identify him as a potential addition. Surely it seems logical for him to move back to France if he's struggling, plus they're certainly one of the few teams out there with money to spend.

I think Ndombele would be perfect for PSG

SpursAU · Aug 24, 2020

nedley said:
I think Ndombele would be perfect for PSG

Exactly. At least worth 60M to them

hellava_tough · Aug 24, 2020

nedley said:
I think Ndombele would be perfect for PSG

He would be terrible for them.

Tuchel has got their attacking players working hard off the ball, tracking back and putting a defensive shift in. It's one of the reasons they got to the CL final.

There's no way he'll be spending big on a player like TN.

JonnySpurs · Aug 24, 2020

We won't have any trouble finding interested clubs, the problem will be the fee and how stubborn Levy wants to be.

An argument can be made that he can't expect to recoup what we paid, considering that was an entirely different financial landscape, however, we know there are clubs out there than can afford to pay that amount and we also know Levy won't blink when it comes to getting what he wants.

My concern is that we need to use that money to strengthen and time is of the essence.

JonnySpurs · Aug 24, 2020

hellava_tough said:
He would be terrible for them.

Tuchel has got their attacking players working hard off the ball, tracking back and putting a defensive shift in. It's one of the reasons they got to the CL final.

There's no way he'll be spending big on a player like TN.

Having lost last night it wouldn't surprise me if Tuchel leaves PSG and gets replaced by.........yep, you guessed it....ex-PSG player Pochettino, who could then swoop in to pick up his last big buy for Spurs as his first big buy for PSG, in Ndombele.

Probably not as Ligue 1 is already under way for the new season but just wouldn't be shocked if it did happen.

fecka · Aug 24, 2020

Sadly, I doubt that he’ll be sold this window because of his apparent flaws and Levy wanting to recoup the money paid.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns into a very lengthy and toxic saga for everyone involved.

Amo · Aug 24, 2020

sausage said:
I mean, you could have gone for the most obvious context of "French player, French word". It means 'to surround', e.g. the people surrounding another.

Or, perhaps, the long running US TV show starring some very white folk.

I imagine it might not be popular to say, but it's best not to project your own associations as the negative thoughts of other people. It's all kinds of wrong.

I don't actually think of the first part upon hearing the word, it's an attempt at mocking both those that do and those that use the (perceived) problematic terms in the first place.

I'm amazed people think words don't have socialised meanings beyond literal usage.

Riandor · Aug 24, 2020

ardiles&villa said:
Thiago please

Going to Liverpool by all accounts

tiger666 · Aug 24, 2020

JonnySpurs said:
We won't have any trouble finding interested clubs, the problem will be the fee and how stubborn Levy wants to be.

How many clubs are able/willing to pay him 200k? Especially in tbe Covid climate.

nedley · Aug 24, 2020

hellava_tough said:
He would be terrible for them.

Tuchel has got their attacking players working hard off the ball, tracking back and putting a defensive shift in. It's one of the reasons they got to the CL final.

There's no way he'll be spending big on a player like TN.

You're right in that sense.

But his ability to transition quickly would make their attacking trio a scary thought.

TEESSIDE1 · Aug 24, 2020

The only feasible clubs from a financial perspective TN could go to are Real Madrid and A Madrid (if they lose Partey).

Others:

Bayern Munich - play a high press, the whole team are like energiser bunnies. The polar opposite of Tanguy.

Leipzig - can’t afford him

Dortmund - can’t see them being able to afford him and/or want him

PSG - got the cash but similar to Bayern they play a high press.

Juventus - in financial trouble

Lazio, AC Milan, Atalanta, Roma - can’t afford him

Inter Milan - potential for player swaps but they’ve a managerial situation to sort out 1st = time we don’t have

Barcelona - skint and only old players available for exchange

EPL - can’t see us selling to a rival and he wouldn’t be able to hack the required tempo

The only likely option is Real Madrid... he would fit in perfectly as they beat pretty much everyone without breaking a sweat in Spain. This is despite them being nowhere near the threat they used to be.

DiVaio · Aug 24, 2020

TEESSIDE1 said:
The only feasible clubs from a financial perspective TN could go to are Real Madrid and A Madrid (if they lose Partey).

Others:

Bayern Munich - play a high press, the whole team are like energiser bunnies. The polar opposite of Tanguy.

Leipzig - can’t afford him

Dortmund - can’t see them being able to afford him and/or want him

PSG - got the cash but similar to Bayern they play a high press.

Juventus - in financial trouble

Lazio, AC Milan, Atalanta, Roma - can’t afford him

Inter Milan - potential for player swaps but they’ve a managerial situation to sort out 1st = time we don’t have

Barcelona - skint and only old players available for exchange

EPL - can’t see us selling to a rival and he wouldn’t be able to hack the required tempo

The only likely option is Real Madrid... he would fit in perfectly as they beat pretty much everyone without breaking a sweat in Spain. This is despite them being nowhere near the threat they used to be.

Real dont have money/won't spend and they already recalled Odegaard and Ceballos.

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