Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

rossdapep said:

True but sometimes you have to let things play out to learn more about your team.

I think he is giving the players a bit of rope and allowing them to correct it.

You can't hook players constantly for poor performances, you have to allow them to find the inner strength to change it or tactically switch on. Otherwise they won't be able to when you get to the crunch moments.

I am still seeing the bigger picture here.

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Thank god for your posts on this. Fans like to see players hooked at HT for poor performances, it suits their anger but that's not the dynamic a good quality manager wants to create, especially with a new squad. I've heard fans complaining about the Fulham cup game and Smith brought it up yesterday but that game was about squad building, yesterday was the same. Ange see's the bigger picture and some short term pain will pay dividends in the long run.

the yid said:

Bit of context lads

Ange doesn't have a squad he thinks is ready to compete. We have players signed for 5 different managers. We're realising Kulusevski and Bissouma aren't possibly as good as we thought they might be. Realistically we need 2 Forwards replacing Gil and Solomon, a proper ST to replace Richarlison, a DM to replace Bissouma and potentially another to replace Hojbjerg/Skipp, a Maddison back up/Lo Celso (which is that Bergvall?) replacement, another CB and a Left and a right back. I make that 9 players short currently of having a competitive squad. Reality is the team have off days and having players that fit the managers system to rotate them with is very important. I thought Dragusin and Romero were our best 2 outfield players yesterday and Thought Bissouma Sarr and Maddison were the worst. Unfortunately how deep of shit we were in aint getting sorted over night, we're moving in the right direction but until patience is needes

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Thunk many thought that we had the best midfield or one of the best in the league.

That is starting to look ridiculous now.

Bissouma isn't the best defensively and is inconsistent with his effectiveness of breaking that first pressing line.

Bentancur is still not at his best and needs to be found a real role.

Sarr is still young and learning.

I'd also add none of these are tremendously brilliant passers of the ball. They don't dictate and control the way Ange needs.

You can see why Ange wants a 6. You can see why we bought a player like Bergvall.

The player in the 6 and 8 must be highly effective in 1v1s and setting those passing sequences.

The 6 must be able to close gaps quickly.

We are not there yet.

T-Bone said:

Add Sarr into that too, should have all been off after 30 minutes. Today was on him. I will say it now we will never win a trophy with him. Love the man but not good enough to win trophies in England

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What the fuck are you talking about

Sp3akerboxxx said:

He won the league with Chelsea with a net spend of £24m. They finished 10th the season before.

Won the league with inter Milan with a net spend of £43m

Won the league with Juventus with a net spend of £81m

To put that into context, our net spend this season is £151m.

He won 3 titles in 2 different countries with a lower net spend than we have in this season alone.

Edit: according to transfermarkt anyway

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Yes, Chelsea came 10th the year before… and won the title the year before that with the same group of players. They had an enormous wage bill and bought Conte 4 expensive first teamers and sold Oscar for a ludicrously inflated fee and a bunch of guys who’d never been near the first team (including mo Salah!). To quote net spend is just meaningless.

Comparing what Juventus spent in 2011 to win the Italian league to what spurs have spent recently is also meaningless.

Finally, you’re quoting his inter figures for his second season, he’d already spent way more than the first year to rebuild the team.

Conte obviously has had lots of success that can’t be ignored, but the context is the only time he’s won a title outside Italy (which is an easier league) is with an expensive squad and no Europe. Personally I don’t think he is an elite manager, and he certainly can’t be elite without everything exactly as he wants it.

rossdapep said:

True but sometimes you have to let things play out to learn more about your team.

I think he is giving the players a bit of rope and allowing them to correct it.

You can't hook players constantly for poor performances, you have to allow them to find the inner strength to change it or tactically switch on. Otherwise they won't be able to when you get to the crunch moments.

I am still seeing the bigger picture here.

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I think this is a straw man. No one is suggesting players be hooked ‘constantly’ or not given a fair chance. Bissouma (for example) has been given lots of chances, has been poor recently and was dreadful yesterday. We had Bentancur on the bench. He absolutely should have been hooked at 2-0 at the latest

I couldn't give a fuck where you live, the only gauge as to whether you're a real fan or not is how many verses of Macnamara's Band you have carved into your chest with a Stanley knife.

@easley91 is right, it's gonna need patience and then some.

I remember the 2004/05 and 2014/15 seasons well exciting new manager, playing style and young players after the previous season was a horror show (2004 relegation battle and many drubbings in 2014 with dire football) but there was inconsistency and frustration along the way. In 04/05 we could've qualified for Europe but didn't, even losing out in the fair play draw at the seasons end and in 14/15 we could've won a trophy and qualified for UCL. Wasn't until the next season things really clicked and as a club we moved up a level. This season has the same feel, there's definitely something there after a soul destroying season last year but it needs time and probably another window, our squad isn't fully suited to Ange's style of football yet.

You also have to look at even some of the best now to see Rome wasn't built in a day, so many forget Pep's first season at City is his worst finishing 3rd and trophy less, some even suggesting he be sacked at the time. Klopp lost his first 3 cup finals and the team was very inconsistent initially, would smash Man City away 4-1 then lose at Newcastle, who got relegated, before finishing 8th. After that though the rest his history for them both.

Hands up, was in a foul mood after last night, turned it off after the 3rd goal, it was shocking. But this season is not about where we finish in the league, it's about what we build. So many times we've finished in the league well, top 6 even top 4 how many times since 2005? But how many trophies have we won and how many managers have we sacked since then? Wider picture is needed now more than ever if we're really to end this trophy drought and win trophies consistently.

Onwards and upwards.

Thenewcat said:

I think this is a straw man. No one is suggesting players be hooked ‘constantly’ or not given a fair chance. Bissouma (for example) has been given lots of chances, has been poor recently and was dreadful yesterday. We had Bentancur on the bench. He absolutely should have been hooked at 2-0 at the latest

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He was fine against Villa.

Sp3akerboxxx said:

He won the league with Chelsea with a net spend of £24m. They finished 10th the season before.

Won the league with inter Milan with a net spend of £43m

Won the league with Juventus with a net spend of £81m

To put that into context, our net spend this season is £151m.

He won 3 titles in 2 different countries with a lower net spend than we have in this season alone.

Edit: according to transfermarkt anyway

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Yeah but it’s silly to compare net spend of teams now compared to five or ten years ago. It’s like how much how did Poch spend or Redknapp? You can’t divorce it from context. The question is how much you spent relative to other teams that season or two and also the quality of your squad in the first place.

rossdapep said:

He was fine against Villa.

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His general form has been poor. He was ok against Villa but whatever, that’s not the point. The point is he isn’t constantly being hooked, his form isn’t great and he was playing terribly. There was no reason to give him more time to sort it out - he’s 27 with over 150 PL appearances, not some kid whose confidence could be crushed. Ange got it wrong yesterday

Yesterday was poor but again I'm very much in the it's Ange's first season and these results will happen.

I fully expect another one or two of yesterday's results again before the season ends. A top 5 finish would be a brilliant return.

Obviously I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes but for me the focus from the manager and the squad should always be the next game. For all the talk of Champions League, Europa, trophies etc we will never be a truly top side until we are able to say ‘we must win our next game’. Our mentality is atrocious and always has been, we get excited by a good win and we start talking about winning the league. Obviously fans will always do this but it’s the managers job to keep the squad focused on their job. Pep is a master of it, City are at it no matter the opponent or situation. I know he’s got the tools but Pep’s attitude and demeanour demands that whoever plays will do whatever it takes to win the next game. I just want to see more focus from us as a club and whilst we are excited when we here Ange say let the fans dream our mentality will never change until we realise that beating teams like Fulham, Wolves and the like is just as if not more important than beating Arsenal. Creating a style of play is all well and good but we also need to create a win at all costs attitude. Until then hovering around 4th is the best we can hope for.

cjbyid said:

Yesterday was poor but again I'm very much in the it's Ange's first season and these results will happen.

I fully expect another one or two of yesterday's results again before the season ends. A top 5 finish would be a brilliant return.

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Top 5 would be quite an achievement but we shouldn’t be disappointed with 6th and it’s probably the most realistic given for us to get top 5 we’re going to need pick up points in several of the following fixtures:

Away

West Ham
Newcastle
Liverpool
Chelsea

Home

Arsenal
Man City

Based on the above - top 5 will mean beating several of these sides. If not, top 6 is our most realistic outcome.

ginola99 said:

@easley91 is right, it's gonna need patience and then some.

I remember the 2004/05 and 2014/15 seasons well exciting new manager, playing style and young players after the previous season was a horror show (2004 relegation battle and many drubbings in 2014 with dire football) but there was inconsistency and frustration along the way. In 04/05 we could've qualified for Europe but didn't, even losing out in the fair play draw at the seasons end and in 14/15 we could've won a trophy and qualified for UCL. Wasn't until the next season things really clicked and as a club we moved up a level. This season has the same feel, there's definitely something there after a soul destroying season last year but it needs time and probably another window, our squad isn't fully suited to Ange's style of football yet.

You also have to look at even some of the best now to see Rome wasn't built in a day, so many forget Pep's first season at City is his worst finishing 3rd and trophy less, some even suggesting he be sacked at the time. Klopp lost his first 3 cup finals and the team was very inconsistent initially, would smash Man City away 4-1 then lose at Newcastle, who got relegated, before finishing 8th. After that though the rest his history for them both.

Hands up, was in a foul mood after last night, turned it off after the 3rd goal, it was shocking. But this season is not about where we finish in the league, it's about what we build. So many times we've finished in the league well, top 6 even top 4 how many times since 2005? But how many trophies have we won and how many managers have we sacked since then? Wider picture is needed now more than ever if we're really to end this trophy drought and win trophies consistently.

Onwards and upwards.

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When talking about other managers I think as much as we all love to hate him, Arteta is a prime example of giving someone time. He was a laughing stock early on and (I know it's hard for some here to admit) now he has Arsenal flying and has improved them year on year. Plenty were asking for him to be sacked, Arsenal stuck by him and now they're the best they have been since Wenger left.

rossdapep said:

He was fine against Villa.

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That’s clearly the exception to the trend of his performances. He’s been awful since he got sent off against Luton. Even the Villa game he wasn’t as good as we know he can play. He was just ok.

Bissouma shouldn’t be starting.

We all knew there’d be bumps in the road, but I don’t blame anyone for being very unhappy with the effort of both the players and coaches yesterday. It was an abject fairlure on all fronts. The only positive was that no one got injured or sent off.

This is going to be a hallmark of the way we are under Ange. The way we play is really all or nothing, if a team manages to nullify us, or we aren’t quite on it then we are always going to be in trouble because of the chances we give up.

When everything clicks we are a scary team to face, when it doesn’t we are practically a gimmie.

cjbyid said:

Yesterday was poor but again I'm very much in the it's Ange's first season and these results will happen.

I fully expect another one or two of yesterday's results again before the season ends. A top 5 finish would be a brilliant return.

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Ange - first season, inherited a squad with major issues, signed several/has integrated many young players into the side.

He doesn’t get a free ride but he’s to date achieved more than would have been expected.

Where we need to be careful is that Ange has a vision and to fulfil it he needs time and x amount of players suited to his system. In a perfect world he should be given the tools that he needs. However, the same requirements were there for many a previous manager - Poch, Mourinho, Conte etc and the club failed to deliver.

Now I know things ‘appear’ to have changed re our player recruitment which is great but only time will tell if they deliver the players Ange needs.

What I don’t like and we’ve seen this with many a manager is their reluctance/refusal to alter their approach when they don’t have the players they need.

Chelsea at home - many a pundit heaped praise on Ange but his refusal to alter his approach especially with 9 men ultimately resulted in a hammering and our results nose diving. Chelsea were struggling to break us down due to not having a target man/competent striker… at 1-1 with circa 20 mins to play, holding out for a draw would have been a fantastic result but sticking with the high line was asking for trouble and we eventually fell to pieces.

There’s arguments for backing the manager and believing in his approach… there’s sense in this but when you’ve an injury crisis and don’t have the players to do this you’re opening yourself up for a world of pain. We’re still in a fantastic position in the league but and I know this is ‘hypothetical’ we’ve cost ourselves valuable points by Ange refusing to adjust his approach.

You look at the current elite managers in Pep and Klopp and although not elite and a massive twat in Arteta… they adjust their approach according to the opposition and it works. Yes City’s squad is outstanding but Liverpool have maintained their high standards despite being ravaged with injuries and having to play the kids whereas Arsenal’s squad from a talent perspective isn’t much better than ours but mentally they put our players to shame.

For Ange and Spurs to succeed we need both investment, the existing players to stand up and Ange to be more flexible and not a one trick pony.

talkshowhost86 said:

And Ange needs to continue learning and that will mean having to be more flexible in his approach sometimes.

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No sign of this so far. Not sure how many Prems were won with one formation only..

Anyone hoping for 3 at the back etc in terms of flexibility should make peace with the fact it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

This seems to be about as flexible as we've seen him to be with us so far. It is what it is.

And also, the players shit the bed collectively yesterday. That's the reason we got humbled IMO.

Same exact lot took Villa apart methodically the week before. Unless Ange instructed and trained them to do the exact opposite of what he told them the week before then I'm not sure what we're discussing.

Shit results and performances are going to happen, whatever. I find it more concerning though that there's times when opponents really look like they either figured us out or have just set up in way that totally negates our play style.

We're not having problems with one player here or there having a stinker and costing us a game. We're having a problem where the entire team performs badly for periods of games after being World beaters the previous game/half/ten-minutes.

Edit:

It's either something to do with our system/style or something that enables it, or it's to do with the tactical approach (whether intentional or not) of the opposition.