Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

spurs mental said:

People believe he felt like he was "doing us a favour" and never really wanted to be here.

People believe he needs ready made class players and doesn't coach, and that he never would have gotten them from Levy. I don't believe that, I believe he needs a certain style of footballer. Like our current manager does too, as many are now at pains to point out in defence of him.

But we play nice football and dominate possession playing on the front foot, which many said they would be happy about win lose or draw.

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Doesn't coach is laughable. Watch Davies interview about him he said he is meticulous. Probably the coaches the players more than any other manager we've had.

Nick-TopSpursMan said:

What it really shows you is that Ange has made us more of a team.

Conte just sat back and defended then relied on world class Kane to save us.

That simply isn’t sustainable. Top teams don’t play that way. Top teams are the protagonist, they control possession, they play front foot and they try to attack as a team.

Now before you say it, I know we are too open at the back and we’re getting caught out too easily but guess what, so did Arteta, Klopp and Pep before they had time to build their teams.

Point is it’s worth building a team under Ange because:

1. He actually wants to be here
2. He plays a style of football which aligns with what top teams play.

There is a huge difference between what Ange is building and the shit we were being served by Conte and Mourinho, which was never going anywhere as it was dinosaur football.

Now I can’t tell you Ange will definitely succeed. I certainly hope so but what I can say is the way he tries to play and the way he’s trying to build is exactly what the top teams do and therefore it’s worth persisting with.

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Fantastic post

Let’s not hate on the guy. The defence is poor at the moment, but he’s also still learning the PL at the top level. We’ll be better next year.

The way teams cut us open at will means that he will be added to a long list of managers that have failed. You could see from the 5th minute in that this game would end in a tonken yet he did nothing to chsnge that. His blind belief that his way of playing will win out is laughable.

ronzalo said:

Let’s not hate on the guy. The defence is poor at the moment, but he’s also still learning the PL at the top level. We’ll be better next year.

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Don't think anyone is really hating on him, but there's a massive concern over how naive we've been, especially in today's game.

We've got a good talented set of defenders and arguably one of the best keepers in the league but regularly give up the most avoidable goals every week.

Something needs to change, whether it be before the end of the season or next, if it doesn't then it's absolutely reasonable to question his tactics, in my opinion.

It won't be good if we get a battering in the NLD in a couple of weeks time. But it's quite likely based on how we have been playing.

Anyone calling for Ange's head is deluded IMO.
We are top 5 with 60 points. Newc is 6 with 50 points. MU and Chelsea; teams with better players than us pound-for-bound, are nowhere in sight.
We shouldn't sack him on results alone let alone the progress made on entertainment and individuals.

chas vs dave said:

I think a physically dominant cdm, a winger and a striker who can physically compete up top are a must.

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100%
I’d add to that a top class left back whilst Udogie develops.

Those 4 signings imo as well as a 4th CB are an absolute must.

Now Ange might need to tweak his tactics also but imagine for a second if today instead of: Udogie, Biss, Werner we had a Porro level LB, a world class DM, someone like a Doku at LW and an Isak up top, that would actually mean we’d have Sonny off the bench.

Im pretty sure we’d not have wasted those early chances which Werner did, we’d not have been caught out as often on transitions via Biss and Udogie and we’d have had a real striker who can take on a man, hold up the ball etc etc.

For sure there are Q’s over Ange’s system but I still feel we are similar to Klopp early days Liverpool where he has the likes of Mignolet and Lovern in goal and at CB and had pretty much none of the team he ended up building to suit the way he wanted to play:

No Allison, No TAA, No VVD, No Matip, No Robertson, No Fabinho, No Henderson, No Salah, No Mane, No Firminiho.

Aside from Coutiniho & Milner. None of the above were good enough for where Klopp wanted Liverpool to get to.

If we are honest we still have a number of weaknesses in the 1st team and squad if we truly want to dominate and win most games:

GK - lack a good suitable back-up to Vicario

RB - lack a good suitable back-up to Porr

CB - lack a 4th CB

LB - Udogie isn’t the level we need YET and Davies isn’t a suitable fit back-up for Ange's style of football

CDM - Biss is severely off form, possibly not good enough and PEH we know is also not good enough so a top quality CDM is likely needed

CM - Sarr is still very young and a bit raw at times, PEH & Skipp need upgrading.

AM - Maddison hasn’t hit his early season form, Ange doesn’t seem to like GLC and Kulu isn’t the answer

RW - Johnson is still young and developing, no real suitable back-up as Kulu is regularly offering nothing at RW

LW - Son should be starting LW but we have no fit options up top. Werner is certainly NOT the long term answer as a first choice LW for us, Solomon doesn’t look good enough and has been injured

ST - Richarlison not good enough and probably needs cashing in on, Son can’t play up front against a low block and Veliz is still young and raw and likely needs another loan.

We did make huge strides forwards last summer and in Jan Dragusin and Werner were smart additions at the time and ultimately we are 5th and are likely to finish at very very worst 6th and with all the upheaval and Kane leaving that wouldn’t be too bad all things considered.

However if ultimately we want to challenge on all fronts in the league and in all cups then I don’t even think one more summer window will get us the robust squad we really need which Ange talks about but we absolutely need a very strong summer window with an absolute minimum 5 signings, 3-4 of which should be top top quality : ST, WF, CDM, 4th CB, LB.

Then ideally another 3 on top of that.

If we do that we could look a completely different team.

get the concerns with the system and space in behind and it is a concern but the reason I’m saying we still need some serious upgrade signings and I keep comparing to Liverpool is because imagine if we had peak: Robertson, Fabiniho, Mane, Salah and Firminiho our team today would’ve been:

Vicario

Porro
Romero
VDV
Robertson

Fabiniho
Bentancur
Maddison

Mane
Firminiho
Salah

I don’t for a minute with that team think we’d lose 4-0. For a start Mane would’ve put us 1-0 up with that Werner chance and then that alone would’ve made it a completely different game.

I really hope we have a ‘next level’ summer and don’t just sign more squad level players, we now need a good 3-4 transformative signings this summer or next season will be much more of the same.

spurs mental said:

Don't think anyone is really hating on him, but there's a massive concern over how naive we've been, especially in today's game.

We've got a good talented set of defenders and arguably one of the best keepers in the league but regularly give up the most avoidable goals every week.

Something needs to change, whether it be before the end of the season or next, if it doesn't then it's absolutely reasonable to question his tactics, in my opinion.

It won't be good if we get a battering in the NLD in a couple of weeks time. But it's quite likely based on how we have been playing.

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I think you and many others are over-rating our players because of what we are capable of based on our previous positive performances. What we witnessed today are the same players showing the other side of their game.

Udoghie and Porro are both good footballers especially for being full backs. But both aren't great defensively and got exploited because they were targeted. Vicario is a good shot-shopper but he isn't good in the air. VDV has outstanding pace and good technique but isn't great positionally.

All the aformentioned players are good enough to perform in the PL but aren't good enough to be in a consisntely-winning side.

I don't see a problem with Ange's tactics. I see our players being exposed. I hope he can coach them into having less weaknesses. This is how I would evaluate Ange.

Whether we get battered by Arsenal isn't that relevant. At least I wuoldn't judge Ange for that result. This team as it is, SHOULD be battered by Arsenal. They are better in every area of the pitch, except up front because we have Son. If we get 3 points off them then we over-deliver but even that doesn't mean our players have gotten better; its just 1 result.

ultimateloner said:

Anyone calling for Ange's head is deluded IMO.
We are top 5 with 60 points. Newc is 6 with 50 points. MU and Chelsea; teams with better players than us pound-for-bound, are nowhere in sight.
We shouldn't sack him on results alone let alone the progress made on entertainment and individuals.

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I think mainly people are just hugely frustrated due to some really poor results and performances.

But obviously sacking him will probably get us nowhere because it will be rinse and repeat. A new manager will want new players and will need to implement a new way of playing and that all takes time and multiple windows. I’m not sure many people have the stomach for another “transition” season next season.

We need to stick with something and Ange makes sense for a variety of reasons, not least because his footballing Philosophy aligns well with the philosophy of the club and the fact he seems to want to be here.

Maybe it will all end in tears but at least we would have given it a go rather than endlessly sacking coaches in a futile search for some magic bullet.

ultimateloner said:

I think you and many others are over-rating our players because of what we are capable of based on our previous positive performances. What we witnessed today are the same players showing the other side of their game.

Udoghie and Porro are both good footballers especially for being full backs. But both aren't great defensively and got exploited because they were targeted. Vicario is a good shot-shopper but he isn't good in the air. VDV has outstanding pace and good technique but isn't great positionally.

All the aformentioned players are good enough to perform in the PL but aren't good enough to be in a consisntely-winning side.

I don't see a problem with Ange's tactics. I see our players being exposed. I hope he can coach them into having less weaknesses. This is how I would evaluate Ange.

Whether we get battered by Arsenal isn't that relevant. At least I wuoldn't judge Ange for that result. This team as it is, SHOULD be battered by Arsenal. They are better in every area of the pitch, except up front because we have Son. If we get 3 points off them then we over-deliver but even that doesn't mean our players have gotten better; its just 1 result.

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Agree our players aren’t good enough but not the ones you mentioned, Vicario, VDV, Porro have for the most part been phenomenal this season and are all still young with bags of room to improve.

Udogie has had a great 1st season in a new league and is still young with bags of room for improvement although I would sign a top LB this summer and move Usogie to back-up but for me it’s mostly our attacking players that are the biggest issue along with CDM right now.

funkycoldmedina said:

That's not how Klopp, Guardiola or for that matter Atreta built their teams. They were uncompromising about their system

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It's how you reach your objective.

You don't come in and then half way say "Yeah, I need to change it to suit the players"

That's short term thinking.

Long term thinking is "We are going to play this way, we won't compromise, if the players don't buy in or don't fit, they go and I get in ones who can"

Arteta and Pep both did that. They both have signed players and then binned them off after a year.

That's what I think Ange will do.

Its all in. The moment you compromise, you fail.

Things may change in terms of thinking one player is the answer and then you realise they aren't but the principles HAVE to remain.


We are too predictable at the moment and players being off form is not helping.

That's partly system, partly the players.

But if Ange had a 6 who can play his way and more wing options, he would be able to do what Pep and Arteta do and change/tweak things.

He doesn't, so he is focusing on drilling in the principles.

I said the same with Conte, unfortunately Conte had short term vision and we weren't willing to commit to it either.

Luckily, Ange doesn't so he will be able to work harder and dig deeper.

Who out of squad will be a definite Ange player next season?

GK and back 4 + Dragusin ✅️
Bentancur ✅️
Sarr✅️
Johnson ✅️
Son✅️
Maddison ✅️
Deki ✅️

Solomon?
Richarlison?
Bissouma? (Probably is but he needs to fix up)
Davies?
Veliz?
Scarlett?
Werner?

Skipp ❌️
Hojbjerg ❌️
Emerson ❌️
Sessegnon ❌️
Lo Celso ❌️


Now compare that with Arsenal's and City's squads.

How many of their players have questions marks over them and if they should be replaced?

The issue is far too many of us thought Ange had cracked it but in reality it was just a honeymoon period and some of those players were playing above typical levels.

This summer is actually probably more important than last because it isn't a clean slate now or a chance for some to grow into a role.

No, this summer will be about getting the key areas in where we clearly need it (6, second LB, 8, CF, Winger)

ultimateloner said:

I think you and many others are over-rating our players because of what we are capable of based on our previous positive performances. What we witnessed today are the same players showing the other side of their game.

Udoghie and Porro are both good footballers especially for being full backs. But both aren't great defensively and got exploited because they were targeted. Vicario is a good shot-shopper but he isn't good in the air. VDV has outstanding pace and good technique but isn't great positionally.

All the aformentioned players are good enough to perform in the PL but aren't good enough to be in a consisntely-winning side.

I don't see a problem with Ange's tactics. I see our players being exposed. I hope he can coach them into having less weaknesses. This is how I would evaluate Ange.

Whether we get battered by Arsenal isn't that relevant. At least I wuoldn't judge Ange for that result. This team as it is, SHOULD be battered by Arsenal. They are better in every area of the pitch, except up front because we have Son. If we get 3 points off them then we over-deliver but even that doesn't mean our players have gotten better; its just 1 result.

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I don't think we are over rating them, they have, in games, shown exactly what they are capable of. They have high ceilings.

The fact they have flaws just means they can be coached better.

Our players being exposed is down to the tactics, (if they're not good enough which i don't believe is the case).

Of course, they need more coaching and reduce the weaknesses they do have but until they're at that level we need to play with less naivety and more solidity. Even if it sets us back a few months of the system in full flow. It's about results and winning football matches, especially at the business end of the season.

It absolutely does matter if we get battered by Arsenal, regardless of how much better they are and further along they are in their process than Ange. It's the fucking NLD.

Fantastic! We're in full knee-jerk mode. I would expect nothing less. It's what I come here for, to jerk that knee.

Disappointing as this is, it's a bad day at the office, perhaps even a reality check. If we haven't progressed much by this time next season, then I'll listen.

rossdapep said:

It's how you reach your objective.

You don't come in and then half way say "Yeah, I need to change it to suit the players"

That's short term thinking.

Long term thinking is "We are going to play this way, we won't compromise, if the players don't buy in or don't fit, they go and I get in ones who can"

Arteta and Pep both did that. They both have signed players and then binned them off after a year.

That's what I think Ange will do.

Its all in. The moment you compromise, you fail.

Things may change in terms of thinking one player is the answer and then you realise they aren't but the principles HAVE to remain.


We are too predictable at the moment and players being off form is not helping.

That's partly system, partly the players.

But if Ange had a 6 who can play his way and more wing options, he would be able to do what Pep and Arteta do and change/tweak things.

He doesn't, so he is focusing on drilling in the principles.

I said the same with Conte, unfortunately Conte had short term vision and we weren't willing to commit to it either.

Luckily, Ange doesn't so he will be able to work harder and dig deeper.

Who out of squad will be a definite Ange player next season?

GK and back 4 + Dragusin ✅️
Bentancur ✅️
Sarr✅️
Johnson ✅️
Son✅️
Maddison ✅️
Deki ✅️

Solomon?
Richarlison?
Bissouma? (Probably is but he needs to fix up)
Davies?
Veliz?
Scarlett?
Werner?

Skipp ❌️
Hojbjerg ❌️
Emerson ❌️
Sessegnon ❌️
Lo Celso ❌️


Now compare that with Arsenal's and City's squads.

How many of their players have questions marks over them and if they should be replaced?

The issue is far too many of us thought Ange had cracked it but in reality it was just a honeymoon period and some of those players were playing above typical levels.

This summer is actually probably more important than last because it isn't a clean slate now or a chance for some to grow into a role.

No, this summer will be about getting the key areas in where we clearly need it (6, second LB, 8, CF, Winger)

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Such a good post and so spot on especially about “the moment you compromise you fail” exactly that, if you want to truly build something then you stick to your vision and plan and stay true to yourself and slowly slowly change the players to suit it.

Imagine if Klopp had come into Liverpool and not played gegenpressing 4–3-3 and just adapted to suit below par players or the same for pep, imagine if he’d come to city and kept joe hart and some others and not played the way he wanted or Arteta just kept going with Xhaka and Aubameyang and adapted to suit them, NO, as you say these top managers have a system and a belief in that system and they over a number of seasons and transfer windows get rid of players who don’t fit and bring in ones who do.

Yes Ange’s system might be a tad too gung ho and he might need to tweak it a bit but it’s so obvious and has been for a while that our squad is still no where near where it needs to be as soon as we get an injury or 2 we suffer so much, take Richarlison for example, he’s not even good enough for where we want to be but with him injured we end up playing son up top who is ineffective there against low blocks and Werner LW who is so wasteful, if we signed Nico Williams and Ivan Toney for example, today would’ve been a different story.

rossdapep said:

It's how you reach your objective.

You don't come in and then half way say "Yeah, I need to change it to suit the players"

That's short term thinking.

Long term thinking is "We are going to play this way, we won't compromise, if the players don't buy in or don't fit, they go and I get in ones who can"

Arteta and Pep both did that. They both have signed players and then binned them off after a year.

That's what I think Ange will do.

Its all in. The moment you compromise, you fail.

Things may change in terms of thinking one player is the answer and then you realise they aren't but the principles HAVE to remain.


We are too predictable at the moment and players being off form is not helping.

That's partly system, partly the players.

But if Ange had a 6 who can play his way and more wing options, he would be able to do what Pep and Arteta do and change/tweak things.

He doesn't, so he is focusing on drilling in the principles.

I said the same with Conte, unfortunately Conte had short term vision and we weren't willing to commit to it either.

Luckily, Ange doesn't so he will be able to work harder and dig deeper.

Who out of squad will be a definite Ange player next season?

GK and back 4 + Dragusin ✅️
Bentancur ✅️
Sarr✅️
Johnson ✅️
Son✅️
Maddison ✅️
Deki ✅️

Solomon?
Richarlison?
Bissouma? (Probably is but he needs to fix up)
Davies?
Veliz?
Scarlett?
Werner?

Skipp ❌️
Hojbjerg ❌️
Emerson ❌️
Sessegnon ❌️
Lo Celso ❌️


Now compare that with Arsenal's and City's squads.

How many of their players have questions marks over them and if they should be replaced?

The issue is far too many of us thought Ange had cracked it but in reality it was just a honeymoon period and some of those players were playing above typical levels.

This summer is actually probably more important than last because it isn't a clean slate now or a chance for some to grow into a role.

No, this summer will be about getting the key areas in where we clearly need it (6, second LB, 8, CF, Winger)

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I can't winner this enough, he's done his best with the players he has and hasn't thrown any of them under the bus but the midfield is still not right and we need that spine functioning.
Ange seems laser focussed on the prize and thankfully doesn't change course because of bumps in the road. He's built teams before and you can tell he's calm that he's on the right track.
Big summer ahead.
Not sure Kulu fits in the definites either btw

rossdapep said:

It's how you reach your objective.

You don't come in and then half way say "Yeah, I need to change it to suit the players"

That's short term thinking.

Long term thinking is "We are going to play this way, we won't compromise, if the players don't buy in or don't fit, they go and I get in ones who can"

Arteta and Pep both did that. They both have signed players and then binned them off after a year.

That's what I think Ange will do.

Its all in. The moment you compromise, you fail.

Things may change in terms of thinking one player is the answer and then you realise they aren't but the principles HAVE to remain.


We are too predictable at the moment and players being off form is not helping.

That's partly system, partly the players.

But if Ange had a 6 who can play his way and more wing options, he would be able to do what Pep and Arteta do and change/tweak things.

He doesn't, so he is focusing on drilling in the principles.

I said the same with Conte, unfortunately Conte had short term vision and we weren't willing to commit to it either.

Luckily, Ange doesn't so he will be able to work harder and dig deeper.

Who out of squad will be a definite Ange player next season?

GK and back 4 + Dragusin ✅️
Bentancur ✅️
Sarr✅️
Johnson ✅️
Son✅️
Maddison ✅️
Deki ✅️

Solomon?
Richarlison?
Bissouma? (Probably is but he needs to fix up)
Davies?
Veliz?
Scarlett?
Werner?

Skipp ❌️
Hojbjerg ❌️
Emerson ❌️
Sessegnon ❌️
Lo Celso ❌️


Now compare that with Arsenal's and City's squads.

How many of their players have questions marks over them and if they should be replaced?

The issue is far too many of us thought Ange had cracked it but in reality it was just a honeymoon period and some of those players were playing above typical levels.

This summer is actually probably more important than last because it isn't a clean slate now or a chance for some to grow into a role.

No, this summer will be about getting the key areas in where we clearly need it (6, second LB, 8, CF, Winger)

Click to expand...

Can we just auto send this brilliant message to anyone who is OTT questioning Ange and saying Ange out etc, context and perspective is needed right now after this rough run of results and performances and it’ll be exactly the same thing needing to be said when we likely lose quite a few matches in our run-in of hard games.

Styopa said:

I think mainly people are just hugely frustrated due to some really poor results and performances.

But obviously sacking him will probably get us nowhere because it will be rinse and repeat. A new manager will want new players and will need to implement a new way of playing and that all takes time and multiple windows. I’m not sure many people have the stomach for another “transition” season next season.

We need to stick with something and Ange makes sense for a variety of reasons, not least because his footballing Philosophy aligns well with the philosophy of the club and the fact he seems to want to be here.

Maybe it will all end in tears but at least we would have given it a go rather than endlessly sacking coaches in a futile search for some magic bullet.

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People frustrated with the results should look at the table and where we stand relative to where they think we should be at the start of the season. We are more than half way through so it’s a reasonable gauge of how we’ve done.
Getting emotional ups and downs on a game by game basis is childish. It’s like feeling excited or worried with stock price movements. Much of it is random in the short term it makes no sense to even take it too seriously.

rossdapep said:

Long term thinking is "We are going to play this way, we won't compromise, if the players don't buy in or don't fit, they go and I get in ones who can"

Arteta and Pep both did that. They both have signed players and then binned them off after a year. That's what I think Ange will do.

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Agreed Ange will want to. Not so sure Levy will. We need to move players on faster if they're not working out, not hold on to them because the chairman doesn't want to take a bath on them (a bath that will only get colder the longer they stay).

fishhhandaricecake said:

Can we just auto send this brilliant message to anyone who is OTT questioning Ange and saying Ange out etc, context and perspective is needed right now after this rough run of results and performances and it’ll be exactly the same thing needing to be said when we likely lose quite a few matches in our run-in of hard games.

Click to expand...

I said after the Fulham game that the season had ended for me in terms of expectation.

What I mean by that is, and it isn't a negative, that we have learnt all we have needed to from this season and the picture on how to get better has become clearer.

Like when we got hammered 5-1, by Newcastle incidentally, last game of Pochs second season. Poch made a strong statement that day, that's because a number of things were confirmed to him.

Here are a few things that I think will have become clear for Ange going forward.

1. None of Bentancur or Bissouma are the 6 answee and we need a better defensively minded 6 - may even use a ball playing CB there like City have done.

2. Our wingers must score and effect the game more regularly.

3. We need to be able to change our entire midfield with no drop in quality or ability to play the roles asked because it requires 100% intensity which also means...

4. Players cannot be passengers and they must perform more consistently (rotation gives you the ability to sit them out).

5. Tweak the system slightly when needed so we go with 3 CBs or 2 with a DM screening, which will give more freedom to the other players in the system.