Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

Trix said:

Because he's not good enough in possession playing out under a press.

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None of our team are, but he’s the most natural 6 we have. Can it be any worse than what we’re currently trying to do?

RuskyM said:

You can find many answers to this if you're genuinely curious - from Kulusevski's article to interviews with players, from journalists who've covered Ange to posts in this very thread explaining why people are convinced Ange is the solution. However, It seems you've decided that he's not the answer, which is fine, but it doesn't really feel like you're open to having your mind changed here.

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Not a chance that Levy is anywhere near the mindset that some of the doubters on here have.

SpursSince1980 said:

I felt that three of our four goals allowed yesterday were down to errors. The corner was the most concerning of all the goals, as it had been coming. And clearly we are struggling against set pieces but don’t seem to be addressing the issue.

Also at fault yesterday was our pedestrian and weak attacking movements. Too many were making errors, playing it safe, or simply not brave enough. Moreover, the pressing was pathetic. Which put immense pressure on our defense.

Ange has to be less cavalier and dogmatic in his approach. Some pragmatism against tricky opponents should be considered. Continuing with Biss, Madders, and Porro lately has been strange. As they are all a little off form. Admittedly we don’t have many better options, but let’s say we had started yesterday with PEH instead of Biss and Royal and Davies instead of Porro and Udogie. I wonder if there would be a difference?

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An alternative to pragmatism would be to have one or two players who can dribble through/ round. Suspect they are being looked at?

funkycoldmedina said:

He might not be the final answer for us or he might be , but he has done painful rebuilds which previous coaches haven't been prepared to do and if he does leave he will leave us with a balanced, young squad which a new coach can alter if they want without having deadwood on high wages.

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That's more Paratici than Ange, and if he pushes for the Werner signing it kind of undermines it anyway.

Sp3akerboxxx said:

That's more Paratici than Ange, and if he pushes for the Werner signing it kind of undermines it anyway.

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You have to have a coach that's prepared to work with inexperienced players.

funkycoldmedina said:

You have to have a coach that's prepared to work with inexperienced players.

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Yes, the Brighton model.

That is why Paratici is the most important person in the entire organisation.

He should lead player procurement, and get in managers that suit those players and that philosophy.

Just like Brighton.

We desperately need to move away from manager led signings.

That is what leads to Frankenstein squads that constantly need to be rebuilt.

Sp3akerboxxx said:

Yes, the Brighton model.

That is why Paratici is the most important person in the entire organisation.

He should lead player procurement, and get in managers that suit those players and that philosophy.

Just like Brighton.

We desperately need to move away from manager led signings.

That is what leads to Frankenstein squads that constantly need to be rebuilt.

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I pretty much think we have with the structures we have in place, from Munn down

greaves said:

And besides, different players will inevitably (organically) change the ‘system’.

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Exactly this.

When we have Sarr in the team we play a different way to when Bentancur is there. Same thing when it's Richarlison or Kulusevski or even Royal and Davies and that's not even a quality thing, just a difference in style of play.

The thing that is apparent to me is that Ange only has a few key points that he wants to retain.
1) Higher line to suffocate opposition
2) High and wide wingers to stretch the play and play balls across the 6 yard box.
3) 2 CBs and a 6 in front to hold the defensive anchor and to recycle possession.

All other outfield players aim to create triangles, overloads and flood the box for cut backs. Moat.of the training the players do is aimed at pass and move and creating cut back chances. The players are trained to be better decision makers so they can be adaptable on the field rather than the Conte approach of "follow the system" beyond all logic.

There isn't anything in Ange's approach that is so intrinsically rigid that it can't be adapted. So when he says he's not changing he's not saying anything extreme.

gavspur said:

None of our team are, but he’s the most natural 6 we have. Can it be any worse than what we’re currently trying to do?

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Yes.

panoma said:

This is spot on.

Werner and Johnson is midtable quality and we rely on them for goals currently.

Sadly, Richarlisson and Kulusevski is not much better, if at all.

Even Son is in declining form. You could say that's expected from someone his age that relies on pace more than technique, and it won't be any better next season.

Need a major overhaul in the forwards area if we're going to do anything

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I’d say Maddison’s post injury form has been the biggest problem in terms of our attack.
he went from ‘signing of the season’ to virtually zero production.
with that said, we still score 2 goals most games.

In no way should Ange be worried about his job.
do sometimes wonder if it will work out for him (whatever that means, because I think the expectations vary so much from fan to fan)
I do sometimes wonder if this season (or at least the start of it) was a massive PR success and question if we are really any better off than we were under Conte.
I do wonder how much Ange is going to blood the seemingly very talented young players we have at the club.
But I do look forward to seeing what he can do next season. Which is the most important thing.
the premier league is just so tough!

We’re inconsistent, which isn’t a surprise given how disrupted our season has been and where we are on our current journey. I maintain that we are on the right track, but there’s still a lot of work to be done.

Dov67 said:

We didn’t lose yesterday because of Ange's style of football tactics, and we didn’t lose/get thumped because they have better players than us - like Fulham, they dont.

We lost because some of our better players like Bissouma and Maddison are not playing to anything like their potential and because VDV who has had an outstanding first season made two uncharacteristically bad errors in a two minute spell.

Players lose form, players make mistakes. That’s why you have big squads.

But what is unacceptable is that the other main reason we lost is that they physically outfought us to every loose ball and were first to every loose ball. They showed balls and grit and fight and we were timid.

I said after the Fulham game, that Ange would have made his mark at this club when results like yesterday and Fulham are as rare as a comet rather than sadly predictable.

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This is such a good point. Early in the season, Bissouma was possibly the best midfielder in the league, Maddison was the best attacking midfielder. I can't see how it is our tactics or being 'found out' that has made them decline. The more obvious answer is the injuries/suspension/ACN. But there is also a marked lack of dynamism that is completely at odds with how we started the season and with Postecoglou's general philosophy.

This almost inexplicable drop off is not uncommon for us. We had so much optimism going into Conte's final season yet the players were sluggish and lethargic from the start. Maybe they were exhausted from pre-season? Maybe there was a massive increase in pressure over the summer. Similarly, our style and training may have taken our physical edge away and maybe the praise and scrutiny on us has had a negative effect.

funkycoldmedina said:

I pretty much think we have with the structures we have in place, from Munn down

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Fingers crossed.

Ange still has loads in the bank but he has to stop the stubbornness and take some difficult decisions.

The team is not playing the way he wants because the personnel are not as good as he needs.

A genuine 6 is needed who can mop up in front of the defence. Bissouma is way off the pace at the moment and has been since the AFCON and looking at the squad our closest fit is PEH who has his limitations but can be a busy ****.

Our 8s are contributing the grand sum of fuck all at the moment so look at something different.

Maddison has been shit since returning from injury, Sarr has not come back from AFCON with the same energy and Bentancur has been OK and probably the best of a bad bunch. Lo Celso has been under used and needs to be brought in. He adds a quality on the ball that the others don't currently. He might not be the long term solution but he has done no less than the other candidates. I would also be tempted to look at Kulu in the middle but I think he serves a better purpose on the wing currently.

Finally that front 3 are just a mish mash of pace but a distinct lack of intelligence.

Flashes of it from Werner who we should definitely pass on. There is a reason he is only £15m and that's because he can't finish which is such a shame as he does other things very well and is probably the best "team" player up front. He works selflessly but lacks confidence.

Johnson is a work in progress but inconsistent. His delivery is probably the best and his anticipation is improving.

Son is lost in this formation. Not strong enough as the 9 and his strength is playing on the shoulder which this formation just doesn't seem to accommodate.

Richy is not prolific enough but he is really the only player who can be that focal point up front. His hold up play has improved so I think he has to be brought back in for the NLD.

It's frustrating as no player is really taking a hold of the game. The centre backs and goalkeeper get attention for generally good performances but they are much more active than ideally we want them to be as they are exposed as our full backs are in midfield....

Ange needs to look at how we attack and defend and find a balance. Teams are exposing us defensively and our lack of coherent intelligent play through the middle is impacting our chance creation and goal scoring opportunities.

We lack leadership on the pitch.

Someone who actually watched his Yokohama team will know much more but I was having a gander at hos results in his first season.

Found it interesting






The season was just full of highs and lows, some bad defeats and some excellent wins too.

And you can also see a bad run at the end of the season.

He had a poor start at Celtic but I reckon because it's Celtic and the Scottish PL, it was much easier to deal with and avoid being punished.

What is important is the second season where Ange made some slight changes and signed better suited players. That's when those teams really really shone and left those teething issues behind.

Of course not every story is the same and it is the PL.

But I do think it shows that Ange's way of working is to work on the fundamentals in his first year, find out who can maintain it and who can't, as well as identify areas that need tweaking.

Then spend preseason working on that so the team breezes past them.

So when people say stuff like "Why Ange not animated?" It's probably because he is realising what needs to happen for next year.

Yes, it was a disaster at times that first season. HF, finally my J1 League mini obsession is useful. They also played a Super Cup against Vissel Kobe (I think) one year which was textbook wide open, as we've witnessed a few times ourselves. Ended up 3-3 with one of the nuttiest penalty shoot-outs at the end to boot.

Sp3akerboxxx said:

Apparently, since the Chelsea game we have taken less points than Man Utd, and only two more points than Chelsea.

Two clubs that are supposed to be in complete disarray.

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Was that LWOS again? Who ever it was is taking rubbish. We have 34 points since then, Man Utd have 32 and Chelsea 29.

spurs9 said:

Was that LWOS again? Who ever it was is taking rubbish. We have 34 points since then, Man Utd have 32 and Chelsea 29.

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It's technically accurate if you include Gameweek 11 (the Chelsea game), because obviously we lost and the other two won. But equally, who cares? We're still 10 and 16 points clear of sides with much higher budgets.

The Yokohoma bit is interesting because whilst, yes, his rivals won't have had players on par with Isak, it's not like he's always been at the best teams. He's had clear adversity to overcome, and has done so. He'll do it again.

RuskyM said:

You can find many answers to this if you're genuinely curious - from Kulusevski's article to interviews with players, from journalists who've covered Ange to posts in this very thread explaining why people are convinced Ange is the solution. However, It seems you've decided that he's not the answer, which is fine, but it doesn't really feel like you're open to having your mind changed here.

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Incorrect - I posted on Saturday that I want him given time (2+ seasons unless we are at risk of relegation) becuase I am fed up of chop and chnge - but that I do not know if he has what it takes to become a winner in the Prem becuase he has never won anything at this level.

TOLBINY said:

Incorrect - I posted on Saturday that I want him given time (2+ seasons unless we are at risk of relegation) becuase I am fed up of chop and chnge - but that I do not know if he has what it takes to become a winner in the Prem becuase he has never won anything at this level.

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Ok. I'll play.
Had Fergie? What about Peps cone boy? Klopp went from Mainz to Dortmund. What about Ten Hags background? Pep took a while to get his head around the Prem. What about Tuchel who alot here wanted who followed Klopps footsteps at Mainz and Dortmund.
What exactly is your point?
Is it that we had both Jose and Conte? They are gone now! Move on lad.