Match Threads Brighton vs Spurs - Match Thread - Day 20

[UbeAstard]

The best teams have the best managers it is not coincidence . Look at Leeds today the same players that Bielsa took over with no buys and they look fantastic . Jose is yesterdays man but getting rid is not an option because Danny boy is paying him £15 mill a year and to get rid would cost £30 mill plus the cost of a new man big mistake Danny boy . I honestly think we could be relegated and I am not joking Jose seems to have sucked the soul out of the team . I know we have reggie Kane and Lo Celso to come back in but by then we would be on a downward spiral that may be difficult to get out of .

Will be very tempting for Kane to be somewhere else next season

 

[UbeAstard]

I do agree with you on that and I'm guilty of it but football is very emotionally raw and I'm reactive to it. It's hard to apply rationality to a situation I've been so emotionally invested in for the vast majority of my life, yet I admire people who can!

Maybe its understandable when we have a manager who has left a stink in his last 3 jobs and this looks like deja vu

 

[Mr Pink]

Still buzzing

 

[USAYID]

I think you're right, but not necessarily on the Poch side of things. Poch did himself no favours with his comments before the CL final. As I've reflected on it over the last year and a bit, the more the potential impact of it grows in significance. I'm more and more of the opinion that he ended his Spurs career the day he made 'that' comment. The remaining time he was still here was just leading to the inevitable and that if even he'd been backed more fulsomely that summer, it would have made no difference.

The fact that he felt compelled to make those comments is the real travesty. Transfer window after transfer window of not being backed when we were one, maybe two pieces away would eat away at anyone. Pouch knew how close we were and knew it had slipped away by not strengthening and refreshing the team.

 

[rossdapep]

Back to a back 6 against Chelsea... I fucking hope so?? We were boring as hell but at least you could see a plan and a style of what we were doing. Why in earth did we change.
We had a pretty good defensive record and then were unlucky against Liverpool away, then palace we were good first half.. dropped off and then good again last 15. Yes that’s poor but the capability to win was still there if we just didn’t sit. Didn’t need to change everything.
all of a sudden we start moving things around trying winks in cm, integrating Rodon?! And playing wing backs to get Davies in? Of course we then start conceding and losing games.What happened to make this change so drastic?!
Playing 4 at the back with sissoko and hjojberg means the other team didn’t find space in behind etc... goal yesterday Davies caught very wide Rodon and the 3cbs all close enough to throw a blanket over. That never happens if we play 4. Same as mane getting in finding space between cab and wing back.
You play wing backs to overload attacking wise in wide areas, it makes no sense to play it without actual attacking wing backs.... Davies aurier sissoko are not this. Id love to know what prompted the change as we look clueless

Think it's cause we were giving up possession so much that we were dropping deeper and deeper. We used the same defensive shape against Leicester and couldn't respond when going behind.

The first change came vs Wolves where Toby was dropped and we went with 5 at the back, that didn't work. Then Leeds, which we went back to 4-3-3, Toby back in the team but Aurier out, then 4-3-3 vs Fulham but Toby back out the team as I think Jose wanted to play a higher line, didn't work. Then 3-4-3 vs Sheff Utd, which I actually think worked very well as it allowed Bergwijn & Ndombele to get into the right spaces. But losing Reguilon meant we couldn't apply it vs Liverpool.

So there's a mix of chopping and changing too much, trying to play a higher line by reintroducing Sanchez and Reguilon's injury which has come at the wrong time. Plenty of blame should go to Jose but he's also a bit unfortunate in that at the same time he's tried to push the line up, he's lost a key ingredient.

Toby is the one who keeps getting sacrificed, yet we've looked better with him at CB than when Dier has been the main CB as well, so he deserves criticism for that too.

I agree though, we may need to go very defensive vs Chelsea just to get a draw. Fuck my life if we and up losing our first two games vs them in our new home.

 

[rez9000]

The fact that he felt compelled to make those comments is the real travesty. Transfer window after transfer window of not being backed when we were one, maybe two pieces away would eat away at anyone. Pouch knew how close we were and knew it had slipped away by not strengthening and refreshing the team.

You're not wrong. In hindsight, it's very easy to see the wrong turns. If only we, as a club, had a little more foresight.

What can you do?

 

[rossdapep]

This is sophistry - its essentially saying that the only thing that matters is tactics. It also suggests that every other club employs super-secretive tactics or changes them every match.

Every club has a basic manner of play determined by the personnel they have and the wishes of their manager. Every manager worth their salt can identify the tactics employed by their opposition on a basic level by watching them play for only a short period, never mind the analysts employed by the elite clubs. Any manager can 'find out' the way the opposition are going to play before a ball is kicked in anger.

So we know, for instance, that Liverpool like to switch play using their fullbacks, or Leicester like to play with a rapid counter or that Man City look to pass the ball into the box. Have they all been 'found out' too? Of course not.

Tactics only play one part of a football match. The players actually playing the match are far more important. Would Liverpool or Man City be quite so lethal if their players only put in "50%" effort? Would Leeds be quite so mercurial?

Look at Leicester's title run. Are we seriously suggesting that throughout their run, not one single opposition manager had the wherewithal to work out precisely what their vulnerabilities were and exploit them and so demonstrate to the rest of the League how to stop the madness? How come they weren't 'found out?'

We should put it to the test: One team paying at full intensity against another that treats it as a gentle preseason warm up. I know who I'd put my money on. But according to the 'found-out' narrative, the players are all immaterial. So why play the games at all? Here's an idea: let's just have a 'tactics panel' that tests the relative knowledge of the two managers and the one who can explain the opposition's tactics better gets the three points. Because we've been found out, so there's no reason to play matches at all, is there?

This isn't Football Manager. There's no 'super-tactic' that managers can click that breaks the game. If it was, then how come we're not losing every match? Surely when Liverpool were helping out Marine, they could have whispered in their manager's ear, 'pssst - this is the tactic you need to employ to beat Tottenham.' He would have then clicked on 'Tactics', moved his chaps around on the screen and the minnowy Marine would have had a giant-killing.

The 'found-out' idea is just another lazy narrative - a melange of idiotic Sky-esque punditry, mixed with Football Manager, FIFA and PES as if they relates in any real way to what actually happens in football. Nicely packaged and swallowed whole.

I agree that tactics don't necessarily become found out.

I don't believe Jose's approach is the main issue here, if it was we wouldn't have taken 10 points from City, United, Arsenal and Chelsea earlier in the season. And of course Leicester did it not so long ago. There will always be a place for pragmatic football in world football.

My feeling is that when you utilise it you need particular characters. Defenders who enjoy defending and get a kick out of it, they also need to be very strong mentally and switched on because concentration levels are high and they can't do stuff like what Dier did vs Pool or Aurier vs Leicester. If you look back at what Jose had at Inter - Materazzi, Cordoba, Motta, Lucio, Zanetti & Stankovic - these players were highly intelligent, nasty at times, but had high levels of focus. If Jose had that at his disposal now he'd be able to pick fights with them and challenge them and they'd rise to it, not sulk or storm off. They weren't built like that.

Today, you have to approach footballers differently. If they make a mistake, put an arm around them, tell them to move on. They keep making the same mistake, take them aside and give them some alterations or confidence boosters. If it doesn't work, then you may consider casting them aside if it's a huge problem. But don't make it a huge drama.

Jose hasn't moved with the times in this respect and this is where the issues are coming from. Aurier and Dele probably hate his guts, Ndombele probably isn't too fond either but is managing to knuckle down, although I reckon if he falls under his wrath again he won't be so respondent. You have to give players a pass sometimes and not come down so hard on them. When we beat City, Arsenal and United, the team were united and falling through with instructions. First sign of trouble and issues and Jose starts attacking some of them, the effect is that it creates a lack of confidence and nervousness. First year with us and I thought he'd done really well to not call players out, other than Ndombele, which I think he was right to do as Ndombele was clearly taking the piss. These last six weeks he's dropping players right, left and centre and it's just no way to get the side clicking and firing, you are killing the confidence and trust.

Trust, being his biggest enemy. He doen't trust players if they are not Kane or Son. he could do it at Inter because they were highly intelligent warriors mixed with incredible ability. But at Tottenham, United, in this day and age, you have to leave some players to it or give them confidence boosters.

This is then why we are seeing Sissoko at RWB and 5 at the back, he loses trust and tries to cover this by playing systems that look to just hide our weaknesses instead of focusing on improving the strengths.

That run of games we had earlier in the season was fantastic and was done using his preferred system, which proves he's still got it. But it's like mistakes disturb his peace of mind and he starts to patch things up. Which then leads to dodgy subs, strange set ups and players being dropped only to be back in the team two weeks later. He's scrambling around trying to calm his nerves, yet just makes the situation worse.

If he wants to keep his job, he needs to compose himself, stop picking fights with every player who makes a mistake and start to give them a bit of confidence. My worry is that he won't because it's his habit.

But I do agree, there's nothing too wrong with his preferred system, we lack the midfielders to make it function at it's best but he's started to screw around with it and is destroying the players confidence.

 

[DanoCanuck]

We won't score if we can't get shots. 2 matches in a row with absolute shit for shots on goal. I have no idea if it's Jose fault or not but we can't win when we can't score and we can't score when we don't get shots.

 

[rupsmith]

I agree that tactics don't necessarily become found out.

I don't believe Jose's approach is the main issue here, if it was we wouldn't have taken 10 points from City, United, Arsenal and Chelsea earlier in the season. And of course Leicester did it not so long ago. There will always be a place for pragmatic football in world football.

My feeling is that when you utilise it you need particular characters. Defenders who enjoy defending and get a kick out of it, they also need to be very strong mentally and switched on because concentration levels are high and they can't do stuff like what Dier did vs Pool or Aurier vs Leicester. If you look back at what Jose had at Inter - Materazzi, Cordoba, Motta, Lucio, Zanetti & Stankovic - these players were highly intelligent, nasty at times, but had high levels of focus. If Jose had that at his disposal now he'd be able to pick fights with them and challenge them and they'd rise to it, not sulk or storm off. They weren't built like that.

Today, you have to approach footballers differently. If they make a mistake, put an arm around them, tell them to move on. They keep making the same mistake, take them aside and give them some alterations or confidence boosters. If it doesn't work, then you may consider casting them aside if it's a huge problem. But don't make it a huge drama.

Jose hasn't moved with the times in this respect and this is where the issues are coming from. Aurier and Dele probably hate his guts, Ndombele probably isn't too fond either but is managing to knuckle down, although I reckon if he falls under his wrath again he won't be so respondent. You have to give players a pass sometimes and not come down so hard on them. When we beat City, Arsenal and United, the team were united and falling through with instructions. First sign of trouble and issues and Jose starts attacking some of them, the effect is that it creates a lack of confidence and nervousness. First year with us and I thought he'd done really well to not call players out, other than Ndombele, which I think he was right to do as Ndombele was clearly taking the piss. These last six weeks he's dropping players right, left and centre and it's just no way to get the side clicking and firing, you are killing the confidence and trust.

Trust, being his biggest enemy. He doen't trust players if they are not Kane or Son. he could do it at Inter because they were highly intelligent warriors mixed with incredible ability. But at Tottenham, United, in this day and age, you have to leave some players to it or give them confidence boosters.

This is then why we are seeing Sissoko at RWB and 5 at the back, he loses trust and tries to cover this by playing systems that look to just hide our weaknesses instead of focusing on improving the strengths.

That run of games we had earlier in the season was fantastic and was done using his preferred system, which proves he's still got it. But it's like mistakes disturb his peace of mind and he starts to patch things up. Which then leads to dodgy subs, strange set ups and players being dropped only to be back in the team two weeks later. He's scrambling around trying to calm his nerves, yet just makes the situation worse.

If he wants to keep his job, he needs to compose himself, stop picking fights with every player who makes a mistake and start to give them a bit of confidence. My worry is that he won't because it's his habit.

But I do agree, there's nothing too wrong with his preferred system, we lack the midfielders to make it function at it's best but he's started to screw around with it and is destroying the players confidence.

A fascinating post. The "warriors with ability" description I thought was was particularly relevant.

However, my personal view is that "having a go" at the player to get a response is what is associated with a winning mindset - and not necessarily something that is not a modern day approach or trait. United haven't won anything since Jose left; and we have never won anything full stop. If any other manager had got us to the League Cup final we would be salivating over him - with Jose its a shrug and "we expected that from him".

If Jose was in charge of United today - I don't see the likes of Bruno storming off at half time if Jose has a go at him. Pogba on the other hand would probably call his agent and sulk. That reflects in the team's results - United since going top of the league have become nervous and started dropping points.

If Jose was in charge of Liverpool or City - I don't see the like of Van Dyk, Salah, Milner, Henderson, Robertson, Trent, de Bruyne, Silva, Foden etc etc throwing a fit because Jose tells them to grow a pair and track back. Those guys are winners. They have an incessant obsession to win and continually improve. If because of their personality they need an arm around their shoulders, Jose does that. All players who have played for him remember him very fondly as someone who made them grow as people and players.

The likes of Jose Mourinho is what we need to take us to the next level and challenge for trophies. To win.

Our focus should not putting an arm around the shoulder of the likes of Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Dele to keep them happy. Jose wanted NDombele to perform and has made it happen. He doesn't rate the others and the squad needs a real refresh. I would gladly put that in the hands of Jose Mourinho rather than Pochettino - purely because of their track record of winning and not some vague stereotypical association with a certain "style of play".

 

[UbeAstard]

A fascinating post. The "warriors with ability" description I thought was was particularly relevant.

However, my personal view is that "having a go" at the player to get a response is what is associated with a winning mindset - and not necessarily something that is not a modern day approach or trait. United haven't won anything since Jose left; and we have never won anything full stop. If any other manager had got us to the League Cup final we would be salivating over him - with Jose its a shrug and "we expected that from him".

If Jose was in charge of United today - I don't see the likes of Bruno storming off at half time if Jose has a go at him. Pogba on the other hand would probably call his agent and sulk. That reflects in the team's results - United since going top of the league have become nervous and started dropping points.

If Jose was in charge of Liverpool or City - I don't see the like of Van Dyk, Salah, Milner, Henderson, Robertson, Trent, de Bruyne, Silva, Foden etc etc throwing a fit because Jose tells them to grow a pair and track back. Those guys are winners. They have an incessant obsession to win and continually improve. If because of their personality they need an arm around their shoulders, Jose does that. All players who have played for him remember him very fondly as someone who made them grow as people and players.

The likes of Jose Mourinho is what we need to take us to the next level and challenge for trophies. To win.

Our focus should not putting an arm around the shoulder of the likes of Aurier, Sissoko, Winks, Dele to keep them happy. Jose wanted NDombele to perform and has made it happen. He doesn't rate the others and the squad needs a real refresh. I would gladly put that in the hands of Jose Mourinho rather than Pochettino - purely because of their track record of winning and not some vague stereotypical association with a certain "style of play".

Unfortunately its not matter of 'having a go' style or putting your arms round players modern or not. You need to be able to do it all. I think Dele needs his arm around him. Emphatically encourage him when he does the right things, be a bit sterner after the game when he doesn't but hauling him off when he does something you dont like when he hasnt been playing regularly is the wrong thing for me. Aurier is a grown man for goodness sake. What JM said to him in the documentary in front of his teammates made me whince, but I could put up with that as a one off. Hauling him off imediately and not playing him (also possibly putting him down in front of team mates) when all the other options are worse is not good management to me. It's just my opinion though, it may not be right nor wrong.

 

[rez9000]

Unfortunately its not matter of 'having a go' style or putting your arms round players modern or not. You need to be able to do it all. I think Dele needs his arm around him. Emphatically encourage him when he does the right things, be a bit sterner after the game when he doesn't but hauling him off when he does something you dont like when he hasnt been playing regularly is the wrong thing for me. Aurier is a grown man for goodness sake. What JM said to him in the documentary in front of his teammates made me whince, but I could put up with that as a one off. Hauling him off imediately and not playing him (also possibly putting him down in front of team mates) when all the other options are worse is not good management to me. It's just my opinion though, it may not be right nor wrong.

And that's precisely what Mourinho did with him at first. He was Jose's golden boy when he first arrived. Remember? Remember after the West Ham game (Mourinho's first in charge)? He praised Dele to the skies.

People need to stop defending Dele - the situation he's in is of his own making.

As for the things that he said to Aurier, if you think that's harsh, then you should count yourself lucky you've never been a professional footballer yourself, because the stuff you would have been subjected to is a million times harsher. Or have you not heard the expression 'hairdryer treatment'?

You're just picking on things because you want to hang something around Mourinho's neck. Nothing he's done to Dele or Serge or any of the other players is any different to what literally hundreds of football managers have done, do, and will continue to do to their players.

 

[mumfordspur]

You're not wrong. In hindsight, it's very easy to see the wrong turns. If only we, as a club, had a little more foresight.

What can you do?

very mature statement rez
I applaud you

 

[rez9000]

very mature statement rez
I applaud you

That's very kind of you to say, buddy.

 

[UbeAstard]

And that's precisely what Mourinho did with him at first. He was Jose's golden boy when he first arrived. Remember? Remember after the West Ham game (Mourinho's first in charge)? He praised Dele to the skies.

People need to stop defending Dele - the situation he's in is of his own making.

As for the things that he said to Aurier, if you think that's harsh, then you should count yourself lucky you've never been a professional footballer yourself, because the stuff you would have been subjected to is a million times harsher. Or have you not heard the expression 'hairdryer treatment'?

You're just picking on things because you want to hang something around Mourinho's neck. Nothing he's done to Dele or Serge or any of the other players is any different to what literally hundreds of football managers have done, do, and will continue to do to their players.

If I'm entitled to my opinion, you are also entitled to yours. Of course it happens and will continue to happen but not all managers are like that.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Liverpool 0 Brighton 1 FT

Perhaps Brighton are actually pretty good.

Is that four or five clean sheets in a row for them?

 

[UbeAstard]

Liverpool 0 Brighton 1 FT

Perhaps Brighton are actually pretty good.

Is that four or five clean sheets in a row for them?

I think they are good David, but we are poor. Sometimes 2 good teams are on a pitch and one loses. We are not a good team at the moment.

 

[buckley]

Those of us that have championed Potter and said the way his team plays is the way forward if only because at least it will be mostly a joy to watch have been lampooned by many on this site .
Even if Jose wins a cup or two who will have the most enjoyment watching games Brighton fans or Spurs fans ?
I am sick to death of this negative football that seems in the main to be get a goal then defend for your lives forgetting that defending is not our strong point . This style of play is taking away the players will to play so much that now what we saw as our strength (attacking ) has now become as weak as our defending . You can win the league the cups the derby and the grand national but if there is no joy why bother watching . Amazing that a man so intelligent as Jose cannot see things are not working the sad thing is I bet he could set up a team to attack as good if not better than most other managers . But as always there has to be the will to do so so I wont hold my breath.
I would just love him to say " I will show all you naysayers " and put on a masterclass of attacking football .
Now that would really shut the gobs of people like me .