ENIC...

Dzejkob

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Thank you for your polite WTF! Ha! I'm not angry, just sad.

I think Levy's off the pitch strategy has been excellent. I just think he's on pitch strategy has not. He lucked out with Poch and we hugely overachived with him but chose not to back him appropriately. We've only got José cos of Poch.

I'm not complaining about not challenging for the league because we've only done that twice in about 30 odd years. But I am complaining that I don't think that's the aim. I think he sees finishing 2nd-4th as success and that doesn't sit with the 'best stadium in the world' ™, the best training facilities and one of the all time greats at the helm. And you need that belief and aim throughout the club to really achieve it.

I accept that not every signing works out. But when you don't move those who haven't worked out on, and when you take too long to replace the fulcrum of your team then you're only going to go in one direction.

I do support the team. And when I go to the games I love signing, being positive and having a good time. But this is a forum.
Off the pitch excellent and not as excellent on the pitch. I can agree with that. But I don't agree that it is as bad as people say lately. I think he made very hard decision to push aside on pitch success and to focus on facilities and marketing. Because without that, if we for example had won Premier League, we still would be seen as a 'temporary' team. Just like Leicester.

I don't like the statement that he was lucky with Poch cause he was the one that hired him. There was a choice between him and De Boer. And so many of us wanted De Boer, including me! The aim was clear to stay as close to the top team as possible, using young players, academy talents, during stadium development. I think we massively overachived, I don't think Levy expected that and the club wasn't ready then to made the final step to push for the league. Although in Poch era we where in 2 cup finals and 2 FA cup semi finals. We should have done better in those cup competition and that is not on Levy.

Poch wanted us to act like a big club when we weren't ready for that. Levy wanted us to continue act as before, with more gamble on players, young talents etc. That is why I think we ended with two transfer window without buying anyone. Once the stadium was finished, financials are secured and we instantly are doing differently. Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon and now Gedson and Bergwijn. Of course we are not spending as United or City for obvious reasons but we are now in Liverpool and Chelsea level. That is massive.

It is a shame that one of the best team in our history, with one of the best managers in our history happend in time when the club wasn't able to support them. I can't blame Levy for that. Actually I was but I got over Poch and his team and I see things differently now.

I think we need big team rebuild but I don't think doing it in one or two window is the way to go. We did that with Bale money. Liverpool did that with Suarez money. WHU are doing it every season and they are shit every season. We will see what will happen in summer transfer window. That will be an indicator if I am right about Levy and his plan and ambitions.
 

RichieS

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I'd be interested to know whether, broadly at least, there's a generational divide over this. I see people in the thread who expect Spurs to win trophies on a regular basis. I don't feel particularly ashamed to admit that I don't have that same expectation because, at the age of 34, the reality of my lifetime has done nothing to suggest that I should. What I do know is that the time from the first game I can remember watching (the FA Cup final in 1991) to ENIC taking over was pretty much unremitting turd and that the second half of my Spurs supporting life has been far more enjoyable.

I do also think there is some merit in "be careful what you wish for", not because I believe there's any danger of us ever "doing a Leeds", but because evidence suggests that we are far more likely to end up with a Glazer or Kroenke than an Abramovich or Mansour.
 

WiganSpur

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I refer you to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and Manchester United. Their fans, even one Gary Neville, are making the exact same angry noises. But if they can't get one, why should we?

It's January. Players are overpriced in January. Clubs threatened with relegation, or otherwise desperate, buy big in January. Other clubs snap up good deals when they see them, which is what we've just done.

But the main driver of all this relentless frustration is a misunderstanding. We don't buy to improve the current season's finishing position. We just don't, ever. Scarcely anyone does, except for the relegation-threatened and desperate. But we especially don't because our progress back toward being a serious and major player, over the past 17 years, has been about long and medium term planning. The training ground, the stadium, the academy, squad building. Never about improving this season's position, except, of course, for the one winter when we were relegation-threatened and desperate.

People keep expecting us to do it and getting upset when we don't. Then they go "la-la-la" when Mourinho baldly says in his interview, in exactly as many words, that our acquisitions last month were for future seasons.
You can't use other clubs operating in a similar way to us as an excuse for us. Just because Woodward is incompetent it doesn't mean Levy isn't.

I also fail to see how a 6 month loan significantly disrupts the long term interests of the club? By definition they're gone at the end of the season, or if we like them then we can probably try to bring them in permanently. I didn't say we needed to fork out an extra £10m to land Piatek on a permanent deal when we're rightly not sure about him and there's likely better options in the summer.

We didn't need a first team upgrade. Just a mid table PL level striker would have done the job. It's in no way comparable to buying a DM or RB which are long term needs. I absolutely agree in those cases that rushing into January deals when better options in the summer available is the right approach. The striker is a key exception though because by Mourinho's opinion (not mine or anyone else's crucially) we have zero strikers. By definition anyone probably PL standard is an upgrade, and there is still everything to play for this season both on the pitch and financially. We do actually want to win, don't we?
 
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absolute bobbins

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As many have said before what is the point of a football club? It's to dream, to hope to reach for glory. It's a chance for us all to live vicariously and love: our life-long romance.

Levy (and yes, he's made many excellent *business* decisions) is without romance and actually when you compare him to other chairmen he only looks good against the incompetents (Leeds (?!), West Ham, Utd, Arsenal). These are appallingly run clubs.

He's clearly not as good as Leicester's owners or Southamptons (look at all the players they've bought and produced over the past decade and the managers they've appointed) or Chelsea's (for all their criticism at being a big spender that isn't that true in the last few years and they've made huge profits from sales while still winning trophies) or Brighton's (who also built a new stadium but through fan ownership and have maintained their status in the Premier league). And look at Liverpool - a team that were behind us and are now so far ahead it seems insurmountable with our current approach because their owners recognise that if you win on the pitch you win off the pitch too.

Levy has failed manager after manager by not backing them. And the policy of buying young prospects at reasonable prices has only just been revitalised after losing out on Grealish, Maddison, Robertson, Maguire, James etc. I bet it was Maguire going to Man Utd for 80m that made him hard for that policy again. The signings of N'Jie and N'koudou were fucking embarrassing and frankly insulting given the position Poch had got us to. And he managed to make that man, so beautifully obsessed with football, fall out of love with the game.

And to go off topic slightly, I think missing out on Sander Berge is a crime. At £22m it's a steal for a highly-rated 21 year old in a position we're desperate for. Even if he was utterly mediocre, we'd get the money back at that age. I think in 18 months he'll be at one of our rivals and will become a PL star. (However, to be fair to Levy, this might not be on him).

However he is a vampire when it comes to the romance of football. But he'll make a fortune and have a picture up of the one League Cup he's won in his time, in his gold-plated bathroom when ENIC finally sell up.

Saying you're grateful to Levy is like growing up in a rich home that's abusive, controlling and devoid of love but being told you're lucky because it's the best house in the world.
Romance and a empty sack is worth the sack.
 

vegassd

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I think Levy's off the pitch strategy has been excellent. I just think he's on pitch strategy has not. He lucked out with Poch and we hugely overachived with him but chose not to back him appropriately. We've only got José cos of Poch.
I think this feeling is the same as many have about the last few years, and personally I think it's missing a slice of the picture. When Poch was under heavy media scrutiny last Jan he said that when he joined Spurs he signed a 5-year deal with the instruction to manage the team on a budget whilst the stadium was built and then get the team into the CL once the stadium was open. That was his task.

He massively over-achieved during his time when measured against that goal. He took us on a rollercoaster that was far beyond anything the owners or us fans could have imagined. But does the rollercoaster ride mean that the club should change the long-term plan that had been put in place; to budget ourselves around the stadium build then look to kick on once it's open? I don't think it should, and unfortunately I think Poch was a victim of his own success.

Anyone who runs their own business, has a mortgage, or is working on an average salary can appreciate the importance of financial planning and being careful about making big purchases. When it comes to talking about Spurs I feel some people don't apply those same balances, when in reality the financial decisions Levy is making will be far more complicated than most of us are ever aware.

We had some info this window about the finances and how the money we borrowed comes with certain restrictions on further expenditure... a bit like if you lent a friend £100 to help make the rent you wouldn't like to see them out on the lash that weekend! Another thing I think gets missed is future-proofing our wage bill. For example, if we want to get Toby and Eriksen to sign new contracts we would need to ring-fence that expected wage before making decisions about which other players we can fit on the wage bill. That would appear sensible to me at least!

So here's my point... considering that none of us know the full in's and out's of what these transfer decisions look like I think it's too simplistic to say things like "his on-pitch strategy has not worked" and "he chose not to back him appropriately". That would be my point of view at all times, but especially in a scenario where the target was top 4 after the stadium opened but the reality became reaching the CL final.

I'm not saying that everything Levy does is golden btw. The Grealish transfer and a seeming lack of perks to ST holders after the stadium delays would be 2 recent things that spring to mind which left a bad taste in the mouth. But to start throwing around "failing", "embarrassing" and "criminal" is an over-reaction in my view, and is where any debate like this falls into madness.

Creative points for "a vampire when it comes to the romance of football" though. :)

I'm not complaining about not challenging for the league because we've only done that twice in about 30 odd years. But I am complaining that I don't think that's the aim. I think he sees finishing 2nd-4th as success and that doesn't sit with the 'best stadium in the world' ™, the best training facilities and one of the all time greats at the helm. And you need that belief and aim throughout the club to really achieve it.
And this summarises the futility of this argument. You are saying that we have a great stadium, training facilities and manager but that Levy's ambition is limited to 2nd-4th which doesn't match up to those things. But it has been Levy who has overseen those things. It doesn't make sense... the man either has sporting ambition or he doesn't.

I've made this point before to another poster some time ago - Levy and Lewis are smart men who are very wealthy and do not need to run a football club to make more money. If they were more interested in buying property than winning stuff then they should have spent the last 20 years focused on their property business and luxury hotels. If they were only interested in profit they could have put their energy into more traditional businesses geared towards dividends and salary bonuses that don't come with a footy fan base or media scrutiny.

Imagine if ENIC had bought Aston Villa instead of us. We have no idea what Spurs might have won in that time but let's call it 4 FA Cups whilst staying at WHL and hovering around mid-table. In that time Villa only win 1 trophy but build some of the best facilities in the world, appoint Mourinho as manager and played in the CL final last season. We wouldn't be talking about the transfer targets they missed out on and how they should have won more trophies - we would be talking about adopting the "Aston Villa model".

I have no doubt in my mind that if ENIC were running a different club that the people who so often berate them on here would be full of praise for them. I'm not saying it's wrong to criticise them... but so much of the criticism banded about on here is based on a "grass is greener" philosophy.

You quoted Leicester, Southampton, Chelsea, Brighton and Liverpool as having better owners than us. Can you honestly say that if ENIC owned Aston Villa and had achieved all the same things there that you wouldn't include them in that list? I really think you would.

So what I would ask is that the next time you are thinking about Levy being incompetent, constant failings, criminal negligence or an abusive home consider this; is it because what Levy specifically did warrants those comparisons... or is it because any chairman of the club you love could never live up to your ideals? If it's the latter I don't see how it's useful.
 

dudu

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You can't use other clubs operating in a similar way to us as an excuse for us. Just because Woodward is incompetent it doesn't mean Levy isn't.

I also fail to see how a 6 month loan significantly disrupts the long term interests of the club? By definition they're gone at the end of the season, or if we like them then we can probably try to bring them in permanently. I didn't say we needed to fork out an extra £10m to land Piatek on a permanent deal when we're rightly not sure about him and there's likely better options in the summer.

We didn't need a first team upgrade. Just a mid table PL level striker would have done the job. It's in no way comparable to buying a DM or RB which are long term needs. I absolutely agree in those cases that rushing into January deals when better options in the summer available is the right approach. The striker is a key exception though because by Mourinho's opinion (not mine or anyone else's crucially) we have zero strikers. By definition anyone probably PL standard is an upgrade, and there is still everything to play for this season both on the pitch and financially. We do actually want to win, don't we?
Well, seemingly Jose didn't want just any old random mid-table PL level striker either.
 

WiganSpur

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Well, seemingly Jose didn't want just any old random mid-table PL level striker either.
Again, not even admitting the possibility that he did but wasn’t backed. There was a Telegraph article linking us with a striker named Zahavi from the Chinese league late in the window. Jason Burt says we tried and failed. We were also strongly linked to ighalo and it’s believed he chose United over us.

The point is, doesn’t that scream of anyone will do? Surely these two were not long term targets? And if they were, why didn’t we pull the trigger earlier in the window? Why can’t it be deemed a possibility that we actually ballsed it up?

I have yet to see evidence Jose was happy to see us go without a striker. All the evidence points to us being desperate for one. These articles for one and Jose’s interviews, especially post match yesterday. Yet, I see mostly complete conjecture saying he must be happy. That doesn’t allow for the fact that Levy may have just made a mess of things.
 

yido_number1

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Again, not even admitting the possibility that he did but wasn’t backed. There was a Telegraph article linking us with a striker named Zahavi from the Chinese league late in the window. Jason Burt says we tried and failed. We were also strongly linked to ighalo and it’s believed he chose United over us.

The point is, doesn’t that scream of anyone will do? Surely these two were not long term targets? And if they were, why didn’t we pull the trigger earlier in the window? Why can’t it be deemed a possibility that we actually ballsed it up?

I have yet to see evidence Jose was happy to see us go without a striker. All the evidence points to us being desperate for one. These articles for one and Jose’s interviews, especially post match yesterday. Yet, I see mostly complete conjecture saying he must be happy. That doesn’t allow for the fact that Levy may have just made a mess of things.
The constant comments about making do and it being difficult because we don't have a striker to hold the ball up are constant reminders he wanted a striker and the club didn't deliver one of the many names he gave.
 

dudu

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Again, not even admitting the possibility that he did but wasn’t backed. There was a Telegraph article linking us with a striker named Zahavi from the Chinese league late in the window. Jason Burt says we tried and failed. We were also strongly linked to ighalo and it’s believed he chose United over us.

The point is, doesn’t that scream of anyone will do? Surely these two were not long term targets? And if they were, why didn’t we pull the trigger earlier in the window? Why can’t it be deemed a possibility that we actually ballsed it up?

I have yet to see evidence Jose was happy to see us go without a striker. All the evidence points to us being desperate for one. These articles for one and Jose’s interviews, especially post match yesterday. Yet, I see mostly complete conjecture saying he must be happy. That doesn’t allow for the fact that Levy may have just made a mess of things.
Here is the thing though -

Do you honestly think if we wanted to go out and buy a crap striker we couldn't? We have bought plenty in the past and it has not only never been a problem for us, but it has also been a stick to beat Mr Levy with when it has happened.

I strongly believe we wanted a striker on the right terms. Most of the ITKs have alluded to exactly that.

We couldn't get the kind of striker we wanted on the terms that would make it worth it short term.
 

Shadydan

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Here is the thing though -

Do you honestly think if we wanted to go out and buy a crap striker we couldn't? We have bought plenty in the past and it has not only never been a problem for us, but it has also been a stick to beat Mr Levy with when it has happened.

I strongly believe we wanted a striker on the right terms. Most of the ITKs have alluded to exactly that.

We couldn't get the kind of striker we wanted on the terms that would make it worth it short term.
This is a nutshell, I keep trying to explain this to people, we could have ideally gone out and got any striker if we really wanted to, I'm sure people would have love us to spend £60m on a average player so that we could tick the sign a striker box off...it doesn't work like that.

Simply saying that we failed is far too simplistic and too easy to form a conclusion when you actually look at it with an open mind, unfortunately the staunch ENIC outers aren't looking at it with an open mind and forming their own conclusions based on their bias.
 

WiganSpur

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Here is the thing though -

Do you honestly think if we wanted to go out and buy a crap striker we couldn't? We have bought plenty in the past and it has not only never been a problem for us, but it has also been a stick to beat Mr Levy with when it has happened.

I strongly believe we wanted a striker on the right terms. Most of the ITKs have alluded to exactly that.

We couldn't get the kind of striker we wanted on the terms that would make it worth it short term.
But I think there's a difference between 'crap' and somebody not world class though isn't there? Of course we could have brought some League two striker in but that's not the point. That's why I mentioned explicitly somebody PL standard. There are probably hundreds of strikers on that list and they are probably more than comparable to the likes of Ighalo and Zahavi.

Of course we wanted a striker on the right terms, I don't dispute that. But what are the 'right terms'? My argument is those 'right terms' must have been very low because of the fact we failed to bring anyone in when there's likely so much available. If we'd chucked an attractive loan fee at a lot of clubs i'm very convinced we could have brought in somebody who could have done a job for us.
 

dudu

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But I think there's a difference between 'crap' and somebody not world class though isn't there? Of course we could have brought some League two striker in but that's not the point. That's why I mentioned explicitly somebody PL standard. There are probably hundreds of strikers on that list and they are probably more than comparable to the likes of Ighalo and Zahavi.

Of course we wanted a striker on the right terms, I don't dispute that. But what are the 'right terms'? My argument is those 'right terms' must have been very low because of the fact we failed to bring anyone in when there's likely so much available. If we'd chucked an attractive loan fee at a lot of clubs i'm very convinced we could have brought in somebody who could have done a job for us.
Look, I'm in no position to say you are wrong. I just don't know enough about how it all works. What I genuinely believe is that if the person existed who you're talking was available we would have got him. Did we not get two other players? One a loan, one a purchase.

They were the right deals for the right players in positions we maybe didn't even need?

So surely if the right deal for a player in a position we did need would have come along we would have taken it.
 

WiganSpur

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Look, I'm in no position to say you are wrong. I just don't know enough about how it all works. What I genuinely believe is that if the person existed who you're talking was available we would have got him. Did we not get two other players? One a loan, one a purchase.

They were the right deals for the right players in positions we maybe didn't even need?

So surely if the right deal for a player in a position we did need would have come along we would have taken it.
I guess you've seen my point, which is mainly to argue why it can't even be a possibility that DL has messed up.

Regards to the other signings, I just think there were clear financial cases to be made for both and that was the primary reason for us bringing them in rather than footballing reasons. It just happened to also be that Jose felt they would be useful on the pitch too so it was a marriage of convenience between Jose and the board unlike the chase for a striker.

The bigger picture is what is the objective of saving money, being financially prudent? Every single line of reasoning goes around in circles until you arrive at some combination of winning trophies and entertaining the fans with exciting football doesn't it? That is of course unless you're treating the football club as purely a business.
 
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dudu

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I guess you've seen my point, which is mainly to argue why it can't even be a possibility that DL has messed up.

Regards to the other signings, I just think there were clear financial cases to be made for both and that was the primary reason for us bringing them in rather than footballing reasons. It just happened to also be that Jose felt they would be useful on the pitch too so it was a marriage of convenience between Jose and the board unlike the chase for a striker.

The bigger picture is what is the objective of saving money, being financially prudent? Every single line of reasoning goes around in circles until you arrive at some combination of winning trophies and entertaining the fans with exciting football doesn't it?
Its all a matter of perspective.
 

coys200

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Gonna say it. I think people that don’t appreciate what levy has done are just ignorant. I saw a breakdown today of West Ham financials. In 10 years they have grown their commercial side £16m we have grown ours £130m. Yes historically we are a bigger club than West Ham. But just over 10 years ago they actually finished above us. We had similar size stadiums. I’d say London fanbase is probably comparable. You can obviously add Newcastle Villa Everton Leeds etc to the list. Yet somehow without a sugar daddy Levy has taken our revenue to £450m + more than double those other clubs. Built the best infrastructure in the league if not Europe. Appointed the 2nd most decorated manager in world football. How anyone can not comprehend the magnitude of these achievements is beyond me.
Of course the silverware hasn’t come. But the big picture was to build the stadium and then spend as we are seeing. But even in the last 20 years we’ve had teams capable of at least winning something. Did levy select Son as a LWB or play an unfit Kane. Levy has done everything he possibly can to make us one of the top 10 clubs in Europe if you can’t see that you’re just blind or stupid.
 

WiganSpur

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Gonna say it. I think people that don’t appreciate what levy has done are just ignorant. I saw a breakdown today of West Ham financials. In 10 years they have grown their commercial side £16m we have grown ours £130m. Yes historically we are a bigger club than West Ham. But just over 10 years ago they actually finished above us. We had similar size stadiums. I’d say London fanbase is probably comparable. You can obviously add Newcastle Villa Everton Leeds etc to the list. Yet somehow without a sugar daddy Levy has taken our revenue to £450m + more than double those other clubs. Built the best infrastructure in the league if not Europe. Appointed the 2nd most decorated manager in world football. How anyone can not comprehend the magnitude of these achievements is beyond me.
Of course the silverware hasn’t come. But the big picture was to build the stadium and then spend as we are seeing. But even in the last 20 years we’ve had teams capable of at least winning something. Did levy select Son as a LWB or play an unfit Kane. Levy has done everything he possibly can to make us one of the top 10 clubs in Europe if you can’t see that you’re just blind or stupid.
We've done all that you mention because there was clear financial incentive to do so. And i'd be confident 90/95% of Levy Outer's do indeed appreciate what he has done, but believe that it doesn't necessarily mean he is the right man to deliver us consistent trophies.

What's the point of the stadium, the training ground if we don't have some combination of winning trophies and playing attractive football. Wasn't the point that we could pay bigger wages, spend more on transfers and get a better squad of players to deliver that objective consistently? If you don't see us as purely a business, then surely that means Levy wants us to win?

Well fair enough yeah, but then if we want to win then why aren't the board doing everything in their power to get Jose the striker he clearly needs so we can challenge for the FA Cup and the Champions League this season? Don't you see the contradiction?

It's as if our objective is to win, but not this season, always the next. It makes no sense unless you see us only as a business.
 

Shanks

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Agree with that Wigan, apart from the playing attractive football.

that doesn’t really earn you money, but winning certainly does 😉

although, I keep hearing these rumours of a summer buy out, hence why mourinho is reasonably content as he’ll get the big bucks once that’s done - when I say rumours it’s always a friend of a friend who knows someone so honestly haven’t got a clue, but nice to dream !
 

coys200

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They’ve spent £175m this season while the stadium is still not fully operational with income still to come from multiuse events. I really don’t see how much more they could have done this season spending wise.
 

Shadydan

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We've done all that you mention because there was clear financial incentive to do so. And i'd be confident 90/95% of Levy Outer's do indeed appreciate what he has done, but believe that it doesn't necessarily mean he is the right man to deliver us consistent trophies.

What's the point of the stadium, the training ground if we don't have some combination of winning trophies and playing attractive football. Wasn't the point that we could pay bigger wages, spend more on transfers and get a better squad of players to deliver that objective consistently? If you don't see us as purely a business, then surely that means Levy wants us to win?

Well fair enough yeah, but then if we want to win then why aren't the board doing everything in their power to get Jose the striker he clearly needs so we can challenge for the FA Cup and the Champions League this season? Don't you see the contradiction?

It's as if our objective is to win, but not this season, always the next. It makes no sense unless you see us only as a business.
Because said striker doesn't exist this window and never did and was a figment of people's imaginations built on pure fantasies of hopes and over expectations.
 

WiganSpur

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Because said striker doesn't exist this window and never did and was a figment of people's imaginations built on pure fantasies of hopes and over expectations.
Please read my earlier posts in this thread or else we are going around in circles.
 
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