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sunnydelight786

Chief Rocka
Jan 7, 2007
6,075
4,241
What you've established there is the fact of what various interested parties said happened. You have not established the fact of what actually happened. They are not necessarily one and the same. Not least because there is one key person's version of events absent from your account.

Once again, I ask you, what is the likelihood that Spurs - Daniel Levy's Spurs - was ever going to sign three hugely expensive, predominantly central midfielders in one window? Once again, I point you to the ITK which insisted long before window's end that Lo Celso was the true target, not Fernandes; that we were not trying to sign both of them; that Fernandes was a backup option; and even that he was a stalking horse for the Lo Celso deal.

You claim that "You don’t agree terms with someone you have no intention of buying". Well, if Fernandes was our backup option, then we absolutely did intend to buy him..............if we couldn't get Betis to budge on Lo Celso. And since there were only days, if not hours, of the transfer window remaining at the time, then it was imperative that the Fernandes deal was oven-ready, short of actual signatures on a contract. This is common strategy late in the transfer window when a club can't be certain of securing its primary target.

Once Lo Celso was finally secured, Levy had to get busy decommissioning the Fernandes deal. How was he to do that? By telling Fernandes that he had been playing him all along and that Spurs never really wanted him? Awkward! Much easier to kill the deal at the eleventh hour by insisting on additional terms or clauses that he knew would be unacceptable to Sporting.
You keep going on about "facts" yet keep banging on about ITK this, ITK that. ITK is just hearsay, it's NOT a matter of fact and should be taken with a wheelbarrow full of salt. Personally speaking ITK is a load of bollocks and I'd rather take the words of SL owners, BF and his agent why the deal broke down as opposed to some attention seekers who claim to be in on the deal.

That's just my two pence worth. Do carry on defending ENIC for our failures last summer in the transfer market, it's not like they've not got previous eh... :rolleyes:
 
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D

Deleted member 27995

You keep going on about "facts" yet keep banging on about ITK this, ITK that. ITK is just hearsay, it's NOT a matter of fact and should be taken with a wheelbarrow full of salt. Personally speaking ITK is a load of bollocks and I'd rather take the words of SL owners, BF and his agent why the deal broke down as opposed to some attention seekers who claim to be on on the deal.

That's just my two pence worth. Do carry on defending ENIC for our failures last summer in the transfer market, it's not like they've not got previous eh... :rolleyes:
Ah, getting the two top ticket players that were widely reported to be top of Pochs want list is failure?

Sheesh, we're fucked.
 

he is you know!

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2012
1,837
3,500
This was widely reported
We changed our bid structure to £46m with £10m in add ons
SL stuck with £60m
Fernandes himself had interviewed to say he had the deal agreed with Spurs. He hadn’t asked for silly wages and his team hadn't made excessive demands with agent fees. (Couldn’t be more perfect for us, how often does that happen?)

SL would have needed to give him permission to do that, so things would have been ok with them.

Levy/ENIC happens

We missed him by £4m. Fact!

whichever way you cut it, we have always played silly beggars with out recent transfer dealings. Trying to cut as many corners as possible.
Burning bridges which the ‘negotiations’

This is also shown in our opening bid for Fernandes, which was £41m with no extras. Low balling by 1/3.
For such a shrewd business man I Just don’t understand it.

As for the ‘we didn’t want him anyway’ ‘2nd choice’ comments. You don’t agree terms with a player if you have no intention of signing him.

this was only ever about not paying the full fee. Again BF said it himself.

GLC was/is initial loan, deferred payment.

This just isn’t the way to get ahead. Liverpool pots of cash, sure maybe, just went out and paid up for the two pieces they needed, that took them from runners up to CL and PL champions. It is the way it has to be done. Even with top coaching and team spirit.

Us however, when so close to winning something. We went a whole year without signing anyone. Not even a bench warmer. Top teams sign the next level player to keep making the firstXI better. Do that the bench gets better to. Everyone needs to be on their toes, performances improve.
Team investment is massive.

we did spend on NDombele this summer that is true. Although there are Huge scouting ??? Marks there. Sissoko and Sanchez are next biggest signings! Our complete recruitment dealings have been really poor.
[/QUOTE]


Player terms are agreed before any negotiation with the selling club, just like managers speaking to or meeting other teams players and having stadium tours. Everyone does it despite it "being against the rules".

As for agreeing with more than one player, it seems a very sensible approach and normally one that will ensure that you get a player, not no players. You hate the way Levy supposedly operates, undervaluing players and destroying relationships as he goes, yet seem to be for putting all your eggs in one basket and agreeing to whatever price the selling club want, which would impact other recruitment.

I like many others believe ALL parties are at fault for where we're at, but Ndombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon were Poch's 1st choices.

I agree with you about investment, personally, following Villa backing out of the Grealish deal and Poch not being able to persuade Frenkie de Jong to join, if he wasn't convinced by anyone else for CM, why not focus on another part of the team but he didn't as ITK has confirmed many times.
 

sunnydelight786

Chief Rocka
Jan 7, 2007
6,075
4,241
Ah, getting the two top ticket players that were widely reported to be top of Pochs want list is failure?

Sheesh, we're fucked.
Well we are as prior to that we went a near 18 months without signing anyone. Signing 2 top players + 2 prospects was nowhere near enough for what this tired/stale squad needed ?
 
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D

Deleted member 27995

Well we are as prior to that we went a near 18 months without signing anyone. Signing 2 to players + 2 prospects was nowhere near enough for what this tired/stale squad needed ?
Ah, but that wasn't you original point.

All for bashing ENIC - this is their thread. Not interested in those that want to kick off about the fact we didn't buy Bruno when it was agreed that we bought the players the boss wanted 'back poch' I think folk call it.

Funny thing is, this time round it's more to do with the players acquired and their value to the squad, last summer was disastrous in that fact. Remember though, we backed the manager (those who shout the loudest)
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
madness. think i was targetted because they saw i’d tweeted about ENIC.

Are we sure sure our fan base on social media hasn’t been infiltrated by West Ham and arsenal fans, doing things like that seem very them, small time.

By all means be annoyed with the owners, but making us look (and it will) like an idiotic fan base by the rest of the country isn’t cool.
 

mr ashley

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
3,126
8,524
What you've established there is the fact of what various interested parties said happened. You have not established the fact of what actually happened. They are not necessarily one and the same. Not least because there is one key person's version of events absent from your account.

Once again, I ask you, what is the likelihood that Spurs - Daniel Levy's Spurs - was ever going to sign three hugely expensive, predominantly central midfielders in one window? Once again, I point you to the ITK which insisted long before window's end that Lo Celso was the true target, not Fernandes; that we were not trying to sign both of them; that Fernandes was a backup option; and even that he was a stalking horse for the Lo Celso deal.

You claim that "You don’t agree terms with someone you have no intention of buying". Well, if Fernandes was our backup option, then we absolutely did intend to buy him..............if we couldn't get Betis to budge on Lo Celso. And since there were only days, if not hours, of the transfer window remaining at the time, then it was imperative that the Fernandes deal was oven-ready, short of actual signatures on a contract. This is common strategy late in the transfer window when a club can't be certain of securing its primary target.

Once Lo Celso was finally secured, Levy had to get busy decommissioning the Fernandes deal. How was he to do that? By telling Fernandes that he had been playing him all along and that Spurs never really wanted him? Awkward! Much easier to kill the deal at the eleventh hour by insisting on additional terms or clauses that he knew would be unacceptable to Sporting.

We were told last summer that there was money available to obtain our targets if we wanted to.
Poch wanted LoCelso to replace Eriksen, and we creatively found a loophole to save ourselves money and still bring him in. What were we saving the cash for?
I don’t think it was as straightforward as LoCelso or Bruno. It think there’s a strong chance Poch wanted both. Probably saw Bruno as an upgrade on Dele. (This might have been part of Pochs ‘painful rebuild’ quote). We agreed a few for Dybala too.

The details of our Bruno offer are out there.
He was available and keen to sign (he’d agreed terms).
Levy was haggling over the terms (as usual), and united stepped in, and paid the asking price.

I don’t think this was a case of spurs lacking ambition. I think we (Levy) got caught out penny pinching once again.
 
Jan 31, 2006
2,184
6,495
We were told last summer that there was money available to obtain our targets if we wanted to.
Poch wanted LoCelso to replace Eriksen, and we creatively found a loophole to save ourselves money and still bring him in. What were we saving the cash for?
I don’t think it was as straightforward as LoCelso or Bruno. It think there’s a strong chance Poch wanted both. Probably saw Bruno as an upgrade on Dele. (This might have been part of Pochs ‘painful rebuild’ quote). We agreed a few for Dybala too.

The details of our Bruno offer are out there.
He was available and keen to sign (he’d agreed terms).
Levy was haggling over the terms (as usual), and united stepped in, and paid the asking price.

I don’t think this was a case of spurs lacking ambition. I think we (Levy) got caught out penny pinching once again.
So frustrating as a spurs fan. Watching other clubs take the players we should have got. Missing out on crucial signings because of haggling yet we wait all summer to sign Nkoudou or 3 years for Sessegnon.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,985
81,905
Well we are as prior to that we went a near 18 months without signing anyone. Signing 2 to players + 2 prospects was nowhere near enough for what this tired/stale squad needed ?
Most people accept that signings were obsolete for 2 seasons and one transfer window as not going to be enough to put it right.

Calling last summer's transfer window a failure in isolation is pure nonsense.
 

Albertbarich

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2020
5,082
19,484
We go through this every couple of years it feels like, they're is a reason some call Levy 'Teflon'.

Our transfer policy has constantly let us down, or more to the point let the head coach/manager down.

Remember Redknapp? We went into one January window well in the title race. Rumour has it he wanted Tevez to push us over the line. He got Saha and Nelson. We didn't win the title funnily enough.

Who could forget the summer he sold robbie Keane and dimitar berbatov and replaced them with roman pavleyuchenko and faster campbell. The manager who he had brought in at great expense some few month's earlier didnt last long that season. Another failed appointment.

And then there is poch. I won't lie, he is my favourite spurs manager since Venables so I'm biased. After the awful time we had with sherwood and i never took to redknapp , poch was a breath of fresh air. Charming and likeable he made me proud to be Spurs. We achieved heights that I never thought we would. People joke about our title challenges but im 41 and ive not seen us come close before so it was a great time. And the champions league final. I cant believe people play that down. The years of misery watching arsenal in that competition that seemed a pipe dream and there we were in the final.

Remember when he had to turn eric dier into a defensive midfielder ? The early signs were there. Whilst making us top four regulars ( don't have a short memory here, that was a distant dream previously) he was starved of funds. We all sort of understood why but he warned us. He called for a rebuild, why do you think the now dropped toby wasnt getting a new deal? He knew it was stale and yes so was he in the end.

The point for that long overly emotional paragraph though is that finally levy found his man . He found the guy who got him into the cash cow that is the champions league and he still screwed him on transfers. Sure we spent a fortune in the summer but look closer. Lo celso and sessengon were signed so late as levy messed about the manager never really got a chance with them. N'dombele I cant defend except to say the whole of Europe wanted him and poch like jose didnt play him.

This is a pattern and it shows no sign of stopping. Only in January after hiring the worlds most famous and sometimes volatile football manager did he manage to screw him straight away by not signing a back up striker when the whole world could see we were desperate for. And its fine jose saying we can wait but a couple of weeks later he's making it an excuse for him being a posh Sam allerdyce.

We now have covid and you can bet anything you like its going to stop any chance of a rebuild. I mean to get back to being a top side we need a left back, two right backs, a defensive midfielder, maybe two and a striker. Plus you could argue a centre back although id lkke tanganga given a chance there. In todays market we aren't doing all that.

As I said before he told us only a few months ago to stop being obsessed by big transfers and something about not everyone can win. They aren't the words of someone with sporting ambition.

They aren't selling and even if they did the money he would want would ensure we got our own version of the glaziers. Even then look at how he conducts himself. It would take years as he tried to screw them out of every last penny. It took him a year to buy a 19 year old left back from Fulham, imagine how long to close a 2 billion pound deal.

So we have to decide as a fanbase what we want. The banner thing is probably silly but maybe the media need to wake up and see in many ways hes a more sophisticated Mike ashley. As fans were always split over this. There are always staunch defenders, hence the Teflon label but it feels like a real turning point here. Were a mess and its all of enics making. Jose is going to get more and more grumpy too so the worst is yet to come.

What can we do? Stop buying stuff in the stadium when it goes back is one Solution. Make it known that if he lacks ambition we as fans lack the money to spend anymore than the price of a ticket to support the team. Protests might seem pointless but bad publicity is not something he wants. A massive protest outside the stadium before one of these concerts is not what he wants as it hurts him sell the venue.

I'm sure people will ridicule those suggestions but he certainly isn't going to change if we keep going round in circles as a fanbase without actually doing something.
 

HedgieSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2020
1,470
4,971
A number of mistakes were made and I think this illustrates exactly why not having a DoF and an aligned Performance Analysis and Management structure has been so destructive.

Our lack of DoF has handed immense power to both Levy and Poch and both have been found wanting. Poch has a blind spot (as all managers do) and loves players that are technically neat and tidy (Lamela, Lo Celso) and will prefer that over players with more pace, power and athletic drive (Bruno Fernandes). In this respect, in addition to countryman loyalty, it was little surprise that Lo Celso was preferred over Fernandes.

This is where a DoF proves his/her worth. They design and align a footballing philosophy and build a structure that is aligned to it throughout the club. This makes transfer to and transitions within the club as seamless as possible. So in the Lo Celso vs Fernandes example, the DoF would be choosing based on the long term philosophy of the club rather than the short term aims of the manager.

Someone earlier stated that "Levy was never going to buy 3 midfielders in one window....". I think this is exactly where the problem lies. Levy's job is to provide the funds for the footballing operations and ensure that this is delivered in the most optimal and risk-managed way possible.. Thats it...nothing more. He does not have the skill set to scout and analyse players, he's the Chairman. Moreover, we went two windows without buying a single player and hence it would always be likely that we would need a "bumper" window to rebalance the squad.

A DoF is imperative, not just because of Levy, but also to avoid the whims of managers and build a sustainable future for the club on the field to match the significant success we've had on the commercial side.
 

13VanDerBale13

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2011
14,269
33,647
On course to lose 20 games in all comps for the second season in a row, tells you all you need to know about the lack of investment in defence especially
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,905
78,640
We go through this every couple of years it feels like, they're is a reason some call Levy 'Teflon'.

Our transfer policy has constantly let us down, or more to the point let the head coach/manager down.

Remember Redknapp? We went into one January window well in the title race. Rumour has it he wanted Tevez to push us over the line. He got Saha and Nelson. We didn't win the title funnily enough.

Who could forget the summer he sold robbie Keane and dimitar berbatov and replaced them with roman pavleyuchenko and faster campbell. The manager who he had brought in at great expense some few month's earlier didnt last long that season. Another failed appointment.

And then there is poch. I won't lie, he is my favourite spurs manager since Venables so I'm biased. After the awful time we had with sherwood and i never took to redknapp , poch was a breath of fresh air. Charming and likeable he made me proud to be Spurs. We achieved heights that I never thought we would. People joke about our title challenges but im 41 and ive not seen us come close before so it was a great time. And the champions league final. I cant believe people play that down. The years of misery watching arsenal in that competition that seemed a pipe dream and there we were in the final.

Remember when he had to turn eric dier into a defensive midfielder ? The early signs were there. Whilst making us top four regulars ( don't have a short memory here, that was a distant dream previously) he was starved of funds. We all sort of understood why but he warned us. He called for a rebuild, why do you think the now dropped toby wasnt getting a new deal? He knew it was stale and yes so was he in the end.

The point for that long overly emotional paragraph though is that finally levy found his man . He found the guy who got him into the cash cow that is the champions league and he still screwed him on transfers. Sure we spent a fortune in the summer but look closer. Lo celso and sessengon were signed so late as levy messed about the manager never really got a chance with them. N'dombele I cant defend except to say the whole of Europe wanted him and poch like jose didnt play him.

This is a pattern and it shows no sign of stopping. Only in January after hiring the worlds most famous and sometimes volatile football manager did he manage to screw him straight away by not signing a back up striker when the whole world could see we were desperate for. And its fine jose saying we can wait but a couple of weeks later he's making it an excuse for him being a posh Sam allerdyce.

We now have covid and you can bet anything you like its going to stop any chance of a rebuild. I mean to get back to being a top side we need a left back, two right backs, a defensive midfielder, maybe two and a striker. Plus you could argue a centre back although id lkke tanganga given a chance there. In todays market we aren't doing all that.

As I said before he told us only a few months ago to stop being obsessed by big transfers and something about not everyone can win. They aren't the words of someone with sporting ambition.

They aren't selling and even if they did the money he would want would ensure we got our own version of the glaziers. Even then look at how he conducts himself. It would take years as he tried to screw them out of every last penny. It took him a year to buy a 19 year old left back from Fulham, imagine how long to close a 2 billion pound deal.

So we have to decide as a fanbase what we want. The banner thing is probably silly but maybe the media need to wake up and see in many ways hes a more sophisticated Mike ashley. As fans were always split over this. There are always staunch defenders, hence the Teflon label but it feels like a real turning point here. Were a mess and its all of enics making. Jose is going to get more and more grumpy too so the worst is yet to come.

What can we do? Stop buying stuff in the stadium when it goes back is one Solution. Make it known that if he lacks ambition we as fans lack the money to spend anymore than the price of a ticket to support the team. Protests might seem pointless but bad publicity is not something he wants. A massive protest outside the stadium before one of these concerts is not what he wants as it hurts him sell the venue.

I'm sure people will ridicule those suggestions but he certainly isn't going to change if we keep going round in circles as a fanbase without actually doing something.
I agree with everything you said.

The easiest solution - because ENIC are going nowhere - is to take him off the footballing side of things. A DOF, a clear structure into how we scout, how we play, which kinds of players we identify, which coaches we bring in, etc. All transfers are decided by DOF, scouts and coach together. Levy never sits at that table, neither do any other board members.

Get into the year 2020 otherwise we'll just go from one mess to another. Imagine if we got Van Gaal or De Boer instead of Poch, I dread to think!
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,905
78,640
A number of mistakes were made and I think this illustrates exactly why not having a DoF and an aligned Performance Analysis and Management structure has been so destructive.

Our lack of DoF has handed immense power to both Levy and Poch and both have been found wanting. Poch has a blind spot (as all managers do) and loves players that are technically neat and tidy (Lamela, Lo Celso) and will prefer that over players with more pace, power and athletic drive (Bruno Fernandes). In this respect, in addition to countryman loyalty, it was little surprise that Lo Celso was preferred over Fernandes.

This is where a DoF proves his/her worth. They design and align a footballing philosophy and build a structure that is aligned to it throughout the club. This makes transfer to and transitions within the club as seamless as possible. So in the Lo Celso vs Fernandes example, the DoF would be choosing based on the long term philosophy of the club rather than the short term aims of the manager.

Someone earlier stated that "Levy was never going to buy 3 midfielders in one window....". I think this is exactly where the problem lies. Levy's job is to provide the funds for the footballing operations and ensure that this is delivered in the most optimal and risk-managed way possible.. Thats it...nothing more. He does not have the skill set to scout and analyse players, he's the Chairman. Moreover, we went two windows without buying a single player and hence it would always be likely that we would need a "bumper" window to rebalance the squad.

A DoF is imperative, not just because of Levy, but also to avoid the whims of managers and build a sustainable future for the club on the field to match the significant success we've had on the commercial side.
I agree with everything you said. In Levy's defence I don't think he scouts players in any way, what I think happens is he weighs up the risk in buying the player and if we can maintain or increase player value in that player. He'll then favour the least riskiest signing and push for that. Someone has his ear because as we saw in the Clarke signing, a player Poch didn't want, he went ahead and signed him. Probably because he thought "10m is cheap and we can make this player a 30-40m player" rather than listen to Poch who may have been asking for that 10m to go towards signing Lo Celso immediately.

If people can remember, by late July last year, Poch was interviewed and seemed to be in a stinking mood about transfers. Obviously something had happened behind the scenes. Perhaps he had asked for the club to get Lo Celso now only to be told the club wouldn't be held to ransom, perhaps he was angry that after 2 years we still hadn't signed Sessegnon when it seemed a fairly straight forward deal to do. Perhaps it's because he saw Janssen and Nkoudou still on the wage bill. But we all know it's down to Levy and how he operates.

Poch didn't want a DOF and I think that was a mistake on his part, could have allowed someone else to put the pressure on Levy and taken some stress from his job but I could understand why he wanted total control as he probably didn't trust Levy to bring in the right man - especially after the Mitchell failure.

When Poch was sacked that would have been the perfect time to implement a DOF and structure. Yet it doesn't look like the club aim to do that once again.
 

AberdeenYid

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2006
450
874
Christ I hope we don’t have a banner flying over the stadium. Muggy behaviour in the extreme.

The other option mentioned is to not buy club merchandise, food and beverage and maybe even not renew tickets. Therefore giving ENIC an excuse to spend even less.

I doubt there’s a queue of people round the block trying to buy us, who also have a bottomless pit of cash to spend on players and also a whiter than white history. We’ve got who we’ve got and need to support them like we support the rest of the club. Because they are going to be with us for a long time yet.
 

JME-9

Active Member
Jul 5, 2015
102
224
Hope the happy clappers are starting to see the light!! Lack of investment and proper recruitment planning has killed our club!! Back to mid table we go due to this! Squad full of average players who for some reason some fans think are smashers, baffling really! When you replace players with players they were benching and then don’t even replace some other players this is exactly what happens you go backwards! We have regressed massively and levy and ENIC certainly won’t spend for the rebuild that’s needed! It’s fine though I’ve seen some fans say marsh white and Bowden can come into the team ??? championship in no time with ambition like that some fans are part of the problem no ambition and let levy and ENIC get away with daylight robbery !!
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Hope the happy clappers are starting to see the light!! Lack of investment and proper recruitment planning has killed our club!! Back to mid table we go due to this! Squad full of average players who for some reason some fans think are smashers, baffling really! When you replace players with players they were benching and then don’t even replace some other players this is exactly what happens you go backwards! We have regressed massively and levy and ENIC certainly won’t spend for the rebuild that’s needed! It’s fine though I’ve seen some fans say marsh white and Bowden can come into the team ??? championship in no time with ambition like that some fans are part of the problem no ambition and let levy and ENIC get away with daylight robbery !!
There's nothing wrong with being excited for young academy products to break through into first team ... Don't hear Chelsea, United or Arsenal fans knocking their current youth crops?

Fucking hell, don't be that guy.
 

SecretLemonadeDrinker

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2020
2,027
11,165
You keep going on about "facts" yet keep banging on about ITK this, ITK that. ITK is just hearsay, it's NOT a matter of fact and should be taken with a wheelbarrow full of salt. Personally speaking ITK is a load of bollocks and I'd rather take the words of SL owners, BF and his agent why the deal broke down as opposed to some attention seekers who claim to be on on the deal.

That's just my two pence worth. Do carry on defending ENIC for our failures last summer in the transfer market, it's not like they've not got previous eh... :rolleyes:

Let's get one thing clear. It's not me who is insisting that what I am posting is "FACT". That would be hutchiniho that you're confusing me for. I merely stressed the word by way of an appropriate response to his having stressed it. I didn't claim any facts of my own. I merely pointed out that his facts didn't actually tell us what he claimed they told us.

Yes, of course ITK is to be taken with a large pinch of salt. It's why my principle doubt about hutchiniho's "fact" (that Levy blew the Fernandes deal over a mere £4m) was based on how likely it really was that Daniel Levy - Daniel friggin' Levy, for crying out loud - would ever have sanctioned the purchase of three hugely expensive, predominantly central midfielders in one transfer window. I mean.........come on! Does that ring true? At all? Especially given Levy's "previous, eh"? Isn't it infinitely more likely that there is some truth in the ITK that Fernandes was only ever a backup option? After all, it's not as if that particular piece of ITK was one of those after-the-event explanations. ITKs were saying as much weeks before the final chapter of the saga was played out.

And, by the way, I'm all for criticising Levy for his failures in the transfer market. I'm just not for inventing scenarios to criticise him further.
 

HedgieSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2020
1,470
4,971
There's nothing wrong with being excited for young academy products to break through into first team ... Don't hear Chelsea, United or Arsenal fans knocking their current youth crops?

Fucking hell, don't be that guy.

I agree there is nothing wrong with being excited for academy products to come through, but to expect that we will challenge Top 4 with them is folly.
 
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