Is it our players or our tactics?

[dynamoSpurs]

So without necessarily blaming any individuals, what do you guys think is the root of our problems?

it's easy to blame AVB and his tactics...

However, for me, I find it hard to believe tactics alone can see a team (who are not crap) lose by a 6 goal margin, to anyone.

Our formation should not really be a reason why we can't string more than 2 direct passes together, why we can't play any 1-2's or why we can't play any through balls. Or is it?

Watching Man City, Assnil, Chelsea, Liverpool and even Swansea and Southampton, they're all playing pass and go, direct football, which is silky smooth and reminiscent of a not-so-long-ago Spurs era, with Modders, VDV and Bale.

Given that the above 3 players are no longer at the club, perhaps it's no coincidence that our football style has diminished so acutely?

Thoughts?

 

[CowInAComa]

So without necessarily blaming any individuals, what do you guys think is the root of our problems?

it's easy to blame AVB and his tactics...

However, for me, I find it hard to believe tactics alone can see a team (who are not crap) lose by a 6 goal margin, to anyone.

Our formation should not really be a reason why we can't string more than 2 direct passes together, why we can't play any 1-2's or why we can't play any through balls. Or is it?

Watching Man City, Assnil, Chelsea, Liverpool and even Swansea and Southampton, they're all playing pass and go, direct football, which is silky smooth and reminiscent of a not-so-long-ago Spurs era, with Modders, VDV and Bale.

Given that the above 3 players are no longer at the club, perhaps it's no coincidence that our football style has diminished so acutely?

Thoughts?

southampton and swansea dont have Modric, VDV or Bale either. Nor do many other clubs outscoring us. By many other I mean every club in the world but 2.

 

[only1waddle]

southampton and swansea dont have Modric, VDV or Bale either. Nor do many other clubs outscoring us. By many other I mean every club in the world but 2.

And the Dortmund team cost squat the season before last.

 

[whitelanefever]

The whole idea of the game is to get that round thing in the other teams net so if a forward pass is on you should make it we don't, so yes that is down to the managers tactics. If you watch xavi for instance he will pass sideways & backwards but only if a forward pass is'nt on or right decision, so my point is he is left with the creative freedom to make that choice. I fear Andre has taken that away from players & they don't have the belief to express themselves.
Holtby needs to be satdown & shown videos of Xavi, Scholes, Pirlo & Modric as soon as they pass the ball there always on the move to back up the play & recieve it back. Great playmakers seem to always be coming onto the ball so they can see what's infront of them they very rarely get ahead of the play & take themselvescout of the game, Holtby needs to learn this.
I think the players are so unsure of there place in the team there playing safety first incase they make a mistake or in Townsends case he's so eager to impress he tries to do to much, then you have players happy stand back & watch others do it, no-one seems willing to back each other up.
So the answere to your question is it's a bit of both with the underlying current & source of the problem tactical.
Confidence is a big part of football & I get the feeling the players don't believe in what there doing & thinking to much.
There' no freedom of thought or expression in a music analogy it's some XFactor plank we have been witnessing when with the ability that's at our dispisal we could have Jimi Hendrix.

 

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

Poor tactics or poor players, isn't the manager responsible for both?
He selected the tactics and players to suit, got Levy to buy the players, trained them in his tactics, picked the team, adapted the team & tactics.
While you can't account for individual errors, you need a Plan B because these situations do happen.

 

[Mr Pink]

For me its to do with our style and the way we approach the game, every game. Possession seems to be the absolute priority which is inhibiting our freedom to play with more tempo and to pass and move for one another.

Essentially we are playing it safe to the point were its limiting our ability to hurt opponents. The flip side is, barring yesterday, is we're limiting their opportunity to hurt us.

Its all very risk adverse, but its surely not sustainable with the ambitions we have to continue to score so few goals.

 

[double0]

I'm starting to believe its the players, City's first three goals were poor play by the players nothing to do with tactics.

AVB tactically is ok may overly tactical but to encourage and convince the players to execute the plan seems to be the problem.

 

[Bulletspur]

As I said in another thread, the players we have at the moment are more than capable of finishing at least 4th. The problem is the tactics used and the limiting or curtailing of the collective talents by playing too much possession football.

 

[double0]

Possession football is the way forward IMO but what we do in certain areas of the pitch must be quicker....systems and tactics are important too otherwise you get caught out.


What teams tend to do against us now even City to a degree allowed us to have possession positioned and then broken with pace through the middle when we lost the ball.

 

[hodsgod]

You missed the both button

 

[CosmicHotspur]

It's like a perfect meal.

The ingredients are all there but how you prepare, cook and present them is what matters.

We have the ingredients. They are not being prepared, cooked or presented properly.

 

[Nine while nine]

It's like a perfect meal.

The ingredients are all there but how you prepare, cook and present them is what matters.

We have the ingredients. They are not being prepared, cooked or presented properly.

Hmm. Unable to prepare ingredients properly. Facial Hair. Incomprehensible English. Regularly seen in the presence of a chicken.

F**k me. AVB is the Swedish Chef...

 

[PrettyColors]

Both.

We lack a true metronomic midfielder, a Modric. We lack a quality striker (who can create chances for himself.) We lack quick passers. We have a lot of shooters, not enough thinkers.

Our players are pretty average (I.E. Not as good as we thought) but not this average. Not to mention that I don't think any player is being played to their strengths/ideal position or system except Hugo or Walker.

The perfect shit storm (to quote Jim Lahey)

 

[dynamoSpurs]

As I said in another thread, the players we have at the moment are more than capable of finishing at least 4th. The problem is the tactics used and the limiting or curtailing of the collective talents by playing too much possession football.

I don't disagree, but I struggle to find evidence as to why this is fair assumption? What makes you think the players we have are talented enough to to play top 4 football? We certainly haven't seen anything - tactics aside, even individual moments of brilliance have been absent..

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

No way can you legislate for some of the individual errors in that match. The one where Kaboul decided to let the ball run right across him for Aguero to score or Dawson took an age to find his marker and was bypassed by a simple 1-2. These are mistakes I see in Sunday league football. Tactics have nothing to do with it.

 

[SFCS]

The 6-0 was more the players fault than AVB's, there was a lot of basic errors in defence. Well the 6 side of it was the players fault, I'm not so sure about the 0. We only had 2 good chances of note in the match and that's not enough. It's not the first time that's happened either and this is down to AVB's style he's got us playing.

Between 1-0 and 2-0 we pretty much saw AVB's tactics working. Or working as far as he's concerned. The trouble is we still only created one good chance in that period and we don't have the players that just need one good chance and will score. City can, that's why when Navas had a half chance 14 seconds in he chips it into the top corner with his first touch. What AVB needs to do is either get us pushing forward and playing quicker passes, or figure out how he's going to turn all our sideways passing and possession into goals.

Basically it's the players fault for defending so shit and AVB's fault for setting us up to play boring football that doesn't suit our players or work.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Dawson is crap. Always has been.
Big brave lad. Love him to bits. But made to look like a Sunday league player by top sides.

When everyone is fit is expect him to be dropped.
Rose isn't a quality left back.
Walker is touch n go for me.
The midfield is a bloody mess and so is the forward line.
I don't know who is good and who is bad anymore.
I believe (IMO) that Holtby and Sigurdson aren't good enough.

 

[Scarlet57]

Spurs are at a restaurant and have filled up on bread before the starter has even arrived.

 

[robbiedee]

Yep, i'd say a combination of both. The tactics are limiting/restricting the players in general.

The Man City game was full of defensive errors. We conceded early then responded really well, I wasn't too worried at this point and thought we might get it back level pretty quickly. After the second went in, a lot of heads dropped and more and more mistakes occurred.

I think the rigidity of AVB's tactics are a big part of the problem. I think some our more creative players need that freedom to be just that. Each player should know their role within the team by now. Maybe not against Man U but I'd like to see AVB take the Redknapp approach and sod the plan...let them go out there and run around a bit...I think we'd see a much different performance.

We're bloody brilliant at possession - the problem is we pass it out from the back, we move the ball around slowly up into the opponents 3rd and then in the name of possession move the ball backwards usually back to the defence and sometimes even Lloris. We see this a lot, we have the ball on the left or right flank high up the pitch, all it takes is a decent through ball, a run from Soldado or Paulinho into a space or even our wingers taking on their man but no - we go backwards and start the build up again and it annoys the fuck out of me.

So for my sanity...they should try playing without a plan and see what happens. Thems are my apples.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

Yep, i'd say a combination of both. The tactics are limiting/restricting the players in general.

The Man City game was full of defensive errors. We conceded early then responded really well, I wasn't too worried at this point and thought we might get it back level pretty quickly. After the second went in, a lot of heads dropped and more and more mistakes occurred.

I think the rigidity of AVB's tactics are a big part of the problem. I think some our more creative players need that freedom to be just that. Each player should know their role within the team by now. Maybe not against Man U but I'd like to see AVB take the Redknapp approach and sod the plan...let them go out there and run around a bit...I think we'd see a much different performance.

We're bloody brilliant at possession - the problem is we pass it out from the back, we move the ball around slowly up into the opponents 3rd and then in the name of possession move the ball backwards usually back to the defence and sometimes even Lloris. We see this a lot, we have the ball on the left or right flank high up the pitch, all it takes is a decent through ball, a run from Soldado or Paulinho into a space or even our wingers taking on their man but no - we go backwards and start the build up again and it annoys the fuck out of me.

So for my sanity...they should try playing without a plan and see what happens. Thems are my apples.

It feels to me like our players have been told there is a certain space on the pitch they're allowed to occupy and only that space is allowed.
There's no freedom to roam for anyone.