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Is there a way back this time?

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,906
78,643
The question will be 'short term' or 'long term' and with Jose being in charge short term suits him more.

So that means that he'll need a good number of players for now. I mentioned in another thread he needs to replicate his transfers at Inter. In his second season his record was;

Spend: 87m
Outgoings : 97m

With a good mixture of experience (Lucio, Eto'o) and players who'd shone for smaller teams (Milito, Motta).

A lot of these signings included swaps and a bit of extra cash thrown on top.

It may not be the best strategy, and I would always prefer a more defined strategy such as signing a lot of young potential with a couple of bigger buys, but the market will be volatile and most clubs won't be spending big. The ITK and media stories suggest this is what we're looking to do and I imagine that's cause we've had encouragement as others looking to do the same.

If we get it right it could work.

For example, Lucas will have many admirers across Europe therefore some clubs may be fooled into swapping him for one of their unfavoured players or even a decent player, thinking they are getting an upgrade.

However, there are problems with this. If Levy gets caught inbetween, signing a load of Jack Clarke types who Jose has no intention of using and only brings one or two bigger players then I imagine it'll go awry next season and Jose will be gone.

Then there's the risk that, Jose gets his way and brings in bigger and older players (Sanchez types) it doesn't go well and we are stuck with an old squad. That'll take a good two years to sort out with a new coach.

Alternatively, Jose could get the players he wants, we do well but are stuck with older players again when we come down. But at least we would have had some joy.

I think its more likely, we will bring in a couple of older and experienced players 25+, Levy brings in 3-4 younger players and tells Jose that's his lot. We struggle, Jose gets impatient and we have a new coach by January. But at least he has some young players to work with.
 

TorontoYid

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2013
1,640
1,691
Whatever happens, something needs to change. Relying on teams we should be destroying to beat themselves with own goals is just pathetic.
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,351
38,294
The question for years (or until we win something) will be, should we have just stayed with Poch through this season and given him a chance to turn around IF Jose ends up finishing outside of Europa spots? What would the difference really have been to stay with him? We wouldn't have gotten relegated one way or the other and if we are finishing mid table, perhaps we should have stuck with him through the rough time - which had gotten very, very bad too.
People keep forgetting just how fed up Poch was getting though. Something had to give.
 

stevenurse

Palacios' neck fat
May 14, 2007
6,089
10,022
That OP is such a rollercoaster of emotions. It kind of gives me hope that we've been here before, and we'll come again. But at the same time I cant help but get the depressing thought out of my mind that it doesn't really matter.

Chelsea have cycles were they're shit, but the next season win something big, be it the league, Champions League, Europa league etc. If our equivalent is a 4th place finish then christ that's a sad state of affairs. I'm not saying its not realistic. We're probably the 6th best team in the league anyway, at best. Still, cursed to still be chained to these useless ***** forever
 

BuckeyeSpurs11

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2013
1,116
3,459
That OP is such a rollercoaster of emotions. It kind of gives me hope that we've been here before, and we'll come again. But at the same time I cant help but get the depressing thought out of my mind that it doesn't really matter.

Chelsea have cycles were they're shit, but the next season win something big, be it the league, Champions League, Europa league etc. If our equivalent is a 4th place finish then christ that's a sad state of affairs. I'm not saying its not realistic. We're probably the 6th best team in the league anyway, at best. Still, cursed to still be chained to these useless ***** forever

by the way, look at Chelsea’s academy. Had a transfer ban and somehow got stronger!

Tammy Abraham, Mason Mount, Ruben Loftus Cheek, Tomori, Reece James, Hudson-Odoi, BillyGilmour, bought Christensen at 19 so maybe he shouldn’t count. Now they’re spending the money and doing what we should have done after finishing 2nd.
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
by the way, look at Chelsea’s academy. Had a transfer ban and somehow got stronger!

I don't know why it's still being said like it's a mystery. Team cohesion trumps individual talent. That's how Leicester won the league, and it's show Sheffield United are doing so well. Blooding players who have played together for years already has obvious advantages, but it's the entertainment/casual fan impact that has convinced people that real life is like FIFA Ultimate Team, and that somehow buying players is instant success. There are minimal cases of that being true.
 

BuckeyeSpurs11

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2013
1,116
3,459
I don't know why it's still being said like it's a mystery. Team cohesion trumps individual talent. That's how Leicester won the league, and it's show Sheffield United are doing so well. Blooding players who have played together for years already has obvious advantages, but it's the entertainment/casual fan impact that has convinced people that real life is like FIFA Ultimate Team, and that somehow buying players is instant success. There are minimal cases of that being true.

Pointing out that it’s what we should aspire to - we brag about the academy for some reason, we have 4 academy players? Kane, Winks, Skipp and Tanganga. For a club with our transfer strategy, we should be a conveyor belt of talent.
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Pointing out that it’s what we should aspire to - we brag about the academy for some reason, we have 4 academy players? Kane, Winks, Skipp and Tanganga. For a club with our transfer strategy, we should be a conveyor belt of talent.

We should be, but we've just let go of a manager who basically did nothing with pretty much a generation of decent talent. We may not know what really happened, but we had the bulk of the England U17 and U19 squad for some time, and they had no chance to develop.

It would have been nice if that summer he didn't want to sign anyone was a precursor to a season of filling in gaps with some youngsters. Instead, we flogged our key players until they broke.
 

TheHodFather

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
536
1,545
If you ignore the caretakers there seems to be a bit of a pattern going on with our managers going back to the Jol era.

We had some good times and played some good footie under Jol.
The next permanent manager was Ramos. Didn't really work out.
After Ramos came Harry, and we had some good times and played some good footie under him.
The next permanent manager was AVB. Didn't really work out.
And after AVB the next full time manager was Poch, and we had some bloody great times and played some bloody great footie under him.
And of course he was replaced by Jose...
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
The question will be 'short term' or 'long term' and with Jose being in charge short term suits him more.

So that means that he'll need a good number of players for now. I mentioned in another thread he needs to replicate his transfers at Inter. In his second season his record was;

Spend: 87m
Outgoings : 97m

With a good mixture of experience (Lucio, Eto'o) and players who'd shone for smaller teams (Milito, Motta).

A lot of these signings included swaps and a bit of extra cash thrown on top.

It may not be the best strategy, and I would always prefer a more defined strategy such as signing a lot of young potential with a couple of bigger buys, but the market will be volatile and most clubs won't be spending big. The ITK and media stories suggest this is what we're looking to do and I imagine that's cause we've had encouragement as others looking to do the same.

If we get it right it could work.

For example, Lucas will have many admirers across Europe therefore some clubs may be fooled into swapping him for one of their unfavoured players or even a decent player, thinking they are getting an upgrade.

However, there are problems with this. If Levy gets caught inbetween, signing a load of Jack Clarke types who Jose has no intention of using and only brings one or two bigger players then I imagine it'll go awry next season and Jose will be gone.

Then there's the risk that, Jose gets his way and brings in bigger and older players (Sanchez types) it doesn't go well and we are stuck with an old squad. That'll take a good two years to sort out with a new coach.

Alternatively, Jose could get the players he wants, we do well but are stuck with older players again when we come down. But at least we would have had some joy.

I think its more likely, we will bring in a couple of older and experienced players 25+, Levy brings in 3-4 younger players and tells Jose that's his lot. We struggle, Jose gets impatient and we have a new coach by January. But at least he has some young players to work with.
This will hurt the levy haters but Inters signings in Mous second season were a result of the president, Massimo Moratti, and not Mou. I was an inter fan at the time and here’s the story...

In his first season at Inter Mourinho bought Quaresma for €25m and Mancini for €15m at a time when those were good sums. They seem tiny now but at the time, Quaresma especially, was a decent chunk. The aim was to play a 433 with those two players being speedy wingers playing off Ibra. It didn’t work. He soon abandoned it and €40m worth of talent played a bit part role.

Moratti took things into his own hands for the second season and Mourinho did the rest with a bunch of steely South American veterans who were ready to die on the pitch.

Mourinho deserves a lot of credit but he had 8 captains on that pitch and he cannot claim credit for the transfers.
 

rossdapep

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2011
21,906
78,643
This will hurt the levy haters but Inters signings in Mous second season were a result of the president, Massimo Moratti, and not Mou. I was an inter fan at the time and here’s the story...

In his first season at Inter Mourinho bought Quaresma for €25m and Mancini for €15m at a time when those were good sums. They seem tiny now but at the time, Quaresma especially, was a decent chunk. The aim was to play a 433 with those two players being speedy wingers playing off Ibra. It didn’t work. He soon abandoned it and €40m worth of talent played a bit part role.

Moratti took things into his own hands for the second season and Mourinho did the rest with a bunch of steely South American veterans who were ready to die on the pitch.

Mourinho deserves a lot of credit but he had 8 captains on that pitch and he cannot claim credit for the transfers.
Thanks! I didn't realise the background behind that. Still, surely the lure of playing for Jose in that time must have meant some sort of contribution?

Well I certainly can't see Levy going on the offensive to bring in players the same way Morrati did. I imagine he'll be happy to bring in 2 or 3 rather than have a big shuffle around.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,986
81,917
If you ignore the caretakers there seems to be a bit of a pattern going on with our managers going back to the Jol era.

We had some good times and played some good footie under Jol.
The next permanent manager was Ramos. Didn't really work out.
After Ramos came Harry, and we had some good times and played some good footie under him.
The next permanent manager was AVB. Didn't really work out.
And after AVB the next full time manager was Poch, and we had some bloody great times and played some bloody great footie under him.
And of course he was replaced by Jose...
Thing is under Jol and Ramos we had a DOF and made good purchases.

Redknapp had a lot of say in transfers and put a team together well.

Since then the transfer setup seems to have fallen apart.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Thanks! I didn't realise the background behind that. Still, surely the lure of playing for Jose in that time must have meant some sort of contribution?

Well I certainly can't see Levy going on the offensive to bring in players the same way Morrati did. I imagine he'll be happy to bring in 2 or 3 rather than have a big shuffle around.
I’m sure you’re right. Mourinho was at the peak of his powers then. And Moratti was nuts so you’re probably right !
 

TheHodFather

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
536
1,545
Thing is under Jol and Ramos we had a DOF and made good purchases.

Redknapp had a lot of say in transfers and put a team together well.

Since then the transfer setup seems to have fallen apart.

Yep, wouldn't disagree with that. Had a look on transfermarkt and according to them our arrivals in recent years are as follows:

13/14 - Lamela, Soldado, Paulinho, Eriksen, Capoue, Chiriches, Chadli
14/15 - Davies, Fazio, Alli, Stambouli, Vorm, Dier, Yedlin
15/16 - Son, Alderweireld, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier
16/17 - Sissoko, Wanyama, Janssen, N'Koudou
17/18 - Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, Llorente, Foyth, Gazzaniga
18/19 - whoops...
19/20 - Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Bergwijn, Clarke

Jury's still out on how the 19/20 arrivals will ultimately be judged, but looking at that list I reckon 15/16 with Son, Alderweireld and Tripper arriving (plus Wimmer who we made a tidy profit on) was arguably the last season where our arrivals were more hit than miss.

EDIT: missed out Gazzaniga..
 

BuckeyeSpurs11

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2013
1,116
3,459
Yep, wouldn't disagree with that. Had a look on transfermarkt and according to them our arrivals in recent years are as follows:

13/14 - Lamela, Soldado, Paulinho, Eriksen, Capoue, Chiriches, Chadli
14/15 - Davies, Fazio, Alli, Stambouli, Vorm, Dier, Yedlin
15/16 - Son, Alderweireld, N'Jie, Wimmer, Trippier
16/17 - Sissoko, Wanyama, Janssen, N'Koudou
17/18 - Sanchez, Aurier, Moura, Llorente, Foyth, Gazzaniga
18/19 - whoops...
19/20 - Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Bergwijn, Clarke

Jury's still out on how the 19/20 arrivals will ultimately be judged, but looking at that list I reckon 15/16 with Son, Alderweireld and Tripper arriving (plus Wimmer who we made a tidy profit on) was arguably the last season where our arrivals were more hit than miss.

EDIT: missed out Gazzaniga..
16/17 and 17/18 were AWFUL. Combine that with 18/19 and it makes sense how we are where we are. When it came time to build, we didn’t do enough. 17/18 at least had Llorente and Lucas clutch goals as a bright spot but overall, not good enough in the market.
 

Cochise

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
4,762
12,519
I do think there is a way back, but I don't think it will be next season that we see anything great happening, more like 21/22. Despite what Mourinho says, I think we do need to get shot of a few of our attackers and improve on them. Lamela and Moura need upgrading and Son needs to find some form.

Those however are secondary to the need for us to find a suitable DM to allow us to get the most from our record signing, a new starting CB and a couple of new fullbacks. So this summer will see more of a focus on sorting those areas out, then the next might be the offence.

So far as something to build off of; I think there are the foundations there. Lloris, Dier, GLC, Kane are all starters. Dele, Son, Bergwijn, N'Dombele, Winks, Alderweireld, Sanchez, Tanganga and Davies are solid options. Then you have players like Sessegnon, Parrott, Skipp, White and Cirkin who are all young and developing.

It's not all doom and gloom, but as everyone else has said, Levy needs to make the right signings for Mourinho.
 

TheHodFather

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
536
1,545
16/17 and 17/18 were AWFUL. Combine that with 18/19 and it makes sense how we are where we are. When it came time to build, we didn’t do enough. 17/18 at least had Llorente and Lucas clutch goals as a bright spot but overall, not good enough in the market.
Yeah. If you ignore the 19/20 batch and ask yourself what proportion of the players genuinely improved us it's pretty grim reading. Big Vic was probably the last one, really (albeit briefly, unfortunately).
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
I will argue that our defence has not looked more solid at all. We let in 3 goals against sheffield utd! We have managed to look solid against teams that are poor and dont press. Lets see how solid we look on Sunday against the scum! We all know that we need some players, but can anybody honestly say that jose is getting the best from the players we have? I mean seriously? If they had no manager at all they would be playing better football!
Spot on. Also it’s easy enough to concede less goals when all you do is defend and hoof the ball! 0 shots on target, fucking 0.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
It’s not hard to solidify a defence if you sacrifice any semblance of attacking impetus. Really, Pulis, Allardyce, Moyes, this is what these guys do. Meat and potatoes management and Jose is trying to sell us magic beans like he’s working a miracle at the moment. It’s horseshit.
It's not magic, but was needed though.

The situation is really not as bad as some people seem to think it is. I haven't always agreed with Levy and ENIC's running of the club, but broadly they have been incredibly successful at running the club. The facilities are up there with the best in the world, and we have become a regular champions league club, even competing for titles. When I started watching Spurs, it was a mid table club, where I was excited about the thought of finishing 7th.

Also there clearly is a way back this time. This is one poor season after how many wonderful seasons? And now the reaction is as if we were getting relegated or something. Like seriously, some fans here make the Arsenal fan base look measured.
 
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