Let's All Laugh At... Let's all wonder what's going on at United?

Rout-Ledge

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I'm not sure I buy your analysis about the best foreign players not wanting to join United anymore.

Who did they bring in from abroad during Fergie's years who were big names in world football? Veron is the first one who springs to mind. The best ones were mainly UK based already. Van Nistelrooy came from Holland so that doesn't really count.

Di Maria and Falcao this time last year (and probably still now) are two of the biggest names in world football. They just didn't work out very well.
 

DubSpurs

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Let's all spend more time wondering what's going on at Tottenham Hotspur.

We needn't be concerned with the likes of Utd, L'Pool, Arsenal or Chelsea. Once again they're way out of our league after this window
 

Armstrong_11

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Sorry but arsenal had a cráp window....

Man Utd took a huge risk in a young French player. Only time will tell.

For the Madrid case.... Let's not forget the amount of money ️We are talking about. If Madrid had a good start to the season, I am sure they won't mind wait next season for DDG. But they kinda need a boost only a big name will bring.
 

Riandor

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I think the de Gea issue is a big cock-up personally. I seriously doubt Man United try to troll Real Madrid, it just went all south for really stupid reasons and it will burn Man United more than Real, because Real will pick him up on a free or really cheaply in January.

To me this reeks of typical LVG. His signing strategy has always been borderline strange, just ask Bayern fans and I reckon it was LVG who wanted to wait until the last day before finally agreeing to let him go, maybe out of old spite against RM or something daft.
 

E.L.Strict

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I think the problems started under Fergie. It seemed to me that in his last couple of seasons he lost interest in building for the future - something he'd always done seamlessly. Despite winning the title in his last season, the side itself looked pretty average in places, with defenders and midfielders that could do a job but weren't likely to sustain any level of form for too long.

By the end Fergie was championing some real dross like Cleverley, so I think he'd either lost the will to plan for the club's post-Fergie days, or just lost the ability to identify good players.
I totally agree with this. I've focused on events since 2003 as that was when Chelsea got their money and United's signings really started to become poor. That summer they signed Ronaldo (great signing), Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba and Bellion, for example, also losing Beckham and Veron.

The bolded bit stands out to me because I distinctly remember writing United off for the title at the beginning of that season (12/13).

I think the last season they won the league they had their worst squad for as long as I can remember. As ridiculous as that sounds, the rest just weren't up to it that year.
Annoyingly I can't find a lot of the things I had saved from that time, but have a look at this example as one interpretation of United's success: How much of an outlier has United's season really been? <---Link. There are probably some statisticians on here who can easily see the weaknesses in that analysis, but I think it is interesting overall.

So what about the TSR of United? Well last year I wrote a post that, based on their TSR, United were a team due to see a decline in performance. An update of that plot, including this seasons data, is below.

Through 32 games they’ve scored 80 points, despite the fact that with a TSR over the season of 0.539 we’d expect them to have scored only 53. That’s an enormous difference and we can look look at this in a couple of ways. Firstly I’ve taken every team who’ve played a stretch of 32 games and had a TSR between 0.529 and 0.549 (n = 97, mean TSR = 0.539). The number of points that they score is shown in the distribution plot below.

The maximum points scored by any team in this group is 71 and if I’d run this analysis at the start of the season I’d have told you the odds of a team scoring 80+ points over 32 games whilst having a TSR of 0.539 was a 5,000-1 long-shot. In other words there’s statistical significance here – United are doing something to affect their performance which TSR cannot explain.

...

So should the model be bent to incorporate United, is this just a freak season in terms of, or is the integrity of the data we’re using fundamentally undermined as an unavoidable consequence of humans making the recordings? This is by no means an exhaustive list but they’re the questions at the forefront of my work right now.
I think there are a couple of other interesting things about that season. These are stats I have in the context of demonstrating how Arsenal were incredibly lucky to finish (1 point) above us. I think they also show that it was United's dominance of the lesser teams that got them the title.

Final top 5: United 89, City 78, Chelsea 75, Arsenal 73, Spurs 72.
Games against top 5: City 14, Chelsea 14, United 11, Spurs 11, Arsenal 5 (lol)
Games against other: United 78, Arsenal 68, City 64, Chelsea 61, Spurs 61

It would be interesting to see these stats for all the seasons, maybe reducing a top 5 to a 4 or 3 if other teams have many less points. I only have two seasons for champions, those being Chelsea in 05/06 who got 21 points from equivalent games leaving them with a total of 70 points from other games, and Arsenal's unbeaten season in 03/04 where they got 18 points from the equivalent games leaving them with 72 points from other games. A quick count suggests that last season Chelsea ended up with 74 points from other games.

78 points is a pretty huge total, and I think United would need to repeat that in order to have a chance at the title again. They have already dropped almost half of that against teams you would consider to be "other" this season. The question is can they get a decent number of points against Chelsea, City, Arsenal, and imo Liverpool? I think they will need 15+ points from these games to have a chance at the title, especially considering smaller teams aren't afraid of playing them anymore. They might beat Liverpool a couple of times, but I would fancy their opposition in the other games.


That would be the 'kind' analysis

The unkind one would be to suggest that a failing Utd after he left would burnish his rep & ego & put an even brighter shine on his years there
Haha, I do believe is in part why they don't have Mourinho as manager right now.


I'm not sure I buy your analysis about the best foreign players not wanting to join United anymore.

Who did they bring in from abroad during Fergie's years who were big names in world football? Veron is the first one who springs to mind. The best ones were mainly UK based already. Van Nistelrooy came from Holland so that doesn't really count.

Di Maria and Falcao this time last year (and probably still now) are two of the biggest names in world football. They just didn't work out very well.
I see what you're saying and I do agree that their best transfers have been from within the Premiership. However before Wenger I would argue that foreign imports didn't have the same impact at the top end of the league as they do now. Up to 2000 the top scorer was almost almost always English. Since then not one has been English. You could also argue that United have had a core of top British players and have only had to supplement this over the years, even until as recently as a few seasons ago. I think the significance of Sterling going to City is pretty huge in this respect, as well as the eventual destinations of Stones and (gulp) Kane.

So I agree that United have never really signed the biggest names in world football, but that was partly due to the fact that they could wait for players to prove themselves in the league before being able to sign them unopposed. The last player who fit this criteria was Van Persie, imo, and before that Berbatov.

Since foreign transfers have become more important United have been left behind. Robben, Essien and Ballack are good examples of this imo, especially Ballack who was an extremely high profile free agent at the time. I feel like proven players such as Fabregas and now Pedro would previously have only been going to United.

Di Maria and Falcao are decent examples against this, but they still joined in the context of no-one better wanting them. For me this is more about United not being the big dog anymore. They have lost all of their preferred markets for transfers.
 

HobbitSpur

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I honestly think that Rooney is the most over rated player ever in English Football. People hang on to his goal scoring record, yet I feel that we are comparing Apples (Rooney) with Oranges (Others). The golf between Man U & England and the opposition they have faced has been far greater than when Charlton (Utd & England), Lineker, Greaves etc played.

Secondly, and for me the greatest evidence for the Emporors New Clothes charade surrounding Rooney is that apart from United no one else has come in for him. Even when he was throwing his toys out, there was no interest from Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG, Bayern, Chelsea, no one. The only person that has any confidence in his ability seems to be him, and his sponsors (riding on the advertising coat tales that they have created themselves).

I honestly believe that anyone of reasonable ability that had been given the runs in Teams that Rooney has had would have surpassed his records.

Rooney may become England's biggest Goal Scorer, but he will never become England's Greatest Goal Scorer.
 

Gbspurs

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I honestly think that Rooney is the most over rated player ever in English Football. People hang on to his goal scoring record, yet I feel that we are comparing Apples (Rooney) with Oranges (Others). The golf between Man U & England and the opposition they have faced has been far greater than when Charlton (Utd & England), Lineker, Greaves etc played.

Secondly, and for me the greatest evidence for the Emporors New Clothes charade surrounding Rooney is that apart from United no one else has come in for him. Even when he was throwing his toys out, there was no interest from Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG, Bayern, Chelsea, no one. The only person that has any confidence in his ability seems to be him, and his sponsors (riding on the advertising coat tales that they have created themselves).

I honestly believe that anyone of reasonable ability that had been given the runs in Teams that Rooney has had would have surpassed his records.

Rooney may become England's biggest Goal Scorer, but he will never become England's Greatest Goal Scorer.
It's not Rooneys fault the rest of the squad are shit and England are a bunch of legends.

Have a look at this comparison.



Pretty damn close. I know the haters say Rooney has never done it in a big tournament, and they are right, but he has scored a lot of goals in competitive football. Next argument is all his goals are against pig farmers, but the same can be said for Charlton.

If he breaks the record be deserves the acclaim IMO.
 

Lilbaz

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It's not Rooneys fault the rest of the squad are shit and England are a bunch of legends.

Have a look at this comparison.



Pretty damn close. I know the haters say Rooney has never done it in a big tournament, and they are right, but he has scored a lot of goals in competitive football. Next argument is all his goals are against pig farmers, but the same can be said for Charlton.

If he breaks the record be deserves the acclaim IMO.
Charlton wasn't a striker though. Put him against greaves or lineker.
 

Gbspurs

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Charlton wasn't a striker though. Put him against greaves or lineker.
But then Rooney also isn't a striker like those 2 were. Pointless comparisons anyeay. I'm sure Lineker and Greaves would have broken the record if they played the same amount of games but ultimately they didn't.

Rooneys longevity deserves respect also.
 

HobbitSpur

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Pretty damn close. I know the haters say Rooney has never done it in a big tournament, and they are right, but he has scored a lot of goals in competitive football. Next argument is all his goals are against pig farmers, but the same can be said for Charlton.

If he breaks the record be deserves the acclaim IMO.
I cannot believe that you say that the level opposition that Charlton played against is similar in standard to Rooney. You only have to look at the qualification groups we face to see the lack of class Rooney has faced, and the fact that he has never scored in a World Cup Final speaks volumes.
 

Lilbaz

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I cannot believe that you say that the level opposition that Charlton played against is similar in standard to Rooney. You only have to look at the qualification groups we face to see the lack of class Rooney has faced, and the fact that he has never scored in a World Cup Final speaks volumes.
Even the home nations were tough. The likes of best for northern ireland, john charles for wales.
 

HobbitSpur

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But then Rooney also isn't a striker like those 2 were. Pointless comparisons anyeay. I'm sure Lineker and Greaves would have broken the record if they played the same amount of games but ultimately they didn't.

Rooneys longevity deserves respect also.
If we hadn't been blinded by the powers that be (press, Marketing & PR) and wasn't turned out to be out Talisman, I am sure that he would not have been first on the team sheet every game and therefore would not have as many caps.
 

Gbspurs

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I cannot believe that you say that the level opposition that Charlton played against is similar in standard to Rooney. You only have to look at the qualification groups we face to see the lack of class Rooney has faced, and the fact that he has never scored in a World Cup Final speaks volumes.
He has never played in a world cup final so why should he score in one?

Also England's biggest win since Rooney started was 6-0 against Jamaica. Charlton got Hattricks in an 8-1 Victory against USA, a 9-0 win against Luxembourg, a 8-0 win against Mexico and 8-1 win against Switzerland. He also played in a 10-0 win against USA scoring once. Tough opposition?
 
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HobbitSpur

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He has never played in a world cup final so why should he score in one?

Also England's biggest win since Rooney started was 6-0 against Jamaica. Charlton got Hattricks in an 8-1 Victory against USA, a 9-0 win against Luxembourg, a 8-0 win against Mexico and 8-1 win against Switzerland. He also played in a 10-0 win against USA scoring once. Tough opposition?
I meant Final"s", my bag ;)

Rooney hasn't even scored one Hat Trick which against some of our dubious oppositions says even more (did he score one of the six against Mexico)

I am not knocking anyone else's opinion, just as I will never be turned on mine. IMO Rooney is severely overrated and a lot of the time we may have done better if he wasn't playing (we should have done a lot better when he has played some of the time).
 

Lilbaz

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He has never played in a world cup final so why should he score in one?

Also England's biggest win since Rooney started was 6-0 against Jamaica. Charlton got Hattricks in an 8-1 Victory against USA, a 9-0 win against Luxembourg, a 8-0 win against Mexico and 8-1 win against Switzerland. He also played in a 10-0 win against USA scoring once. Tough opposition?
Probably just as tough as some of the teams we've played just we make it fucking difficult for ourselves because we are shit. Including Rooney.
 

Gbspurs

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I meant Final"s", my bag ;)

Rooney hasn't even scored one Hat Trick which against some of our dubious oppositions says even more (did he score one of the six against Mexico)

I am not knocking anyone else's opinion, just as I will never be turned on mine. IMO Rooney is severely overrated and a lot of the time we may have done better if he wasn't playing (we should have done a lot better when he has played some of the time).
He has scored in world cup finals. Only one mind so not really worth note.

I think I just feel he gets a rough deal because people have a habit of romanticising the past to the detriment of the present. Whilst Rooney may not have reached his potential in an England shirt the record is still an achievement that countless others have failed to achieve in similarly favourable circumstances.

All I can hope for is that a true legend breaks the record soon (only 48 to go Harry!!!)
 

Lilbaz

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He has scored in world cup finals. Only one mind so not really worth note.

I think I just feel he gets a rough deal because people have a habit of romanticising the past to the detriment of the present. Whilst Rooney may not have reached his potential in an England shirt the record is still an achievement that countless others have failed to achieve in similarly favourable circumstances.

All I can hope for is that a true legend breaks the record soon (only 48 to go Harry!!!)
Romanticising a world cup winner and possibly the most talented footballer this country has ever produced?
Rooney is overhyped by sky as are all english players because they are trying to sell premiership football to us. He is a decent player but has not really had any competition for his place in the england squad. We also play more internationals these days as there are more countries in europe and entering the world cup.
 

Gbspurs

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Romanticising a world cup winner and possibly the most talented footballer this country has ever produced?
Rooney is overhyped by sky as are all english players because they are trying to sell premiership football to us. He is a decent player but has not really had any competition for his place in the england squad. We also play more internationals these days as there are more countries in europe and entering the world cup.
I'm not attempted to play down Charlton achievements but to suggest they are substantially harder than Rooneys is romanticising. I'm not talking about the World Cup. That's a separate achievement and something Rooney will never do.

Not sure how playing more international is relevant considering they played the same amount of games.
 
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