Jose Mourinho

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

In what way were we officially the worst team that has played in the PL in whatever time period you want to artificially create for your argument ?
Try and show it with some numbers, hint, you won't be able to

One very quick search has given me this to work with. Give me enough time and I'll find something more concrete as I have read it somewhere, I just need to find the key words required to do so on Google:

From 90min.com if you wish to take a look. As mentioned I'll find something that demonstrates what I'm. Saying as the numbers over the time from what I highlighted make for worse reading. I'll have to do good up where I read that though.

Position	Team	Points	Goal Difference	Goals Scored
1	Manchester City	43	+27	33
2	Liverpool	41	+29	39
3	Aston Villa	34	+16	29
4	Norwich City	31	+10	31
5	Sheffield United	29	+12	22
6	Arsenal	26	+6	24
7	Crystal Palace	26	+5	26
8	Chelsea	26	+5	22
9	Everton	25	+8	19
10	Leicester City	25	+7	23
11	Newcastle United	23	+4	22
12	West Ham United	23	+1	24
13	Wolverhampton Wanderers	21	0	15
14	Manchester United	19	-3	19
15	Southampton	18	-6	20
16	Burnley	17	-3	21
17	Bournemouth	16	-5	23
18	Tottenham Hotspur	15	0	18
19	Watford	13	-13	19
20	Brighton & Hove Albion	13

Edit, found this just now as well : Will post other things if required once I have more than 2 minutes to do a quick google search.

 

[Trotter]

One very quick search has given me this to work with. Give me enough time and I'll find something more concrete as I have read it somewhere, I just need to find the key words required to do so on Google:

From 90min.com if you wish to take a look. As mentioned I'll find something that demonstrates what I'm. Saying as the numbers over the time from what I highlighted make for worse reading. I'll have to do good up where I read that though.

Position	Team	Points	Goal Difference	Goals Scored
1	Manchester City	43	+27	33
2	Liverpool	41	+29	39
3	Aston Villa	34	+16	29
4	Norwich City	31	+10	31
5	Sheffield United	29	+12	22
6	Arsenal	26	+6	24
7	Crystal Palace	26	+5	26
8	Chelsea	26	+5	22
9	Everton	25	+8	19
10	Leicester City	25	+7	23
11	Newcastle United	23	+4	22
12	West Ham United	23	+1	24
13	Wolverhampton Wanderers	21	0	15
14	Manchester United	19	-3	19
15	Southampton	18	-6	20
16	Burnley	17	-3	21
17	Bournemouth	16	-5	23
18	Tottenham Hotspur	15	0	18
19	Watford	13	-13	19
20	Brighton & Hove Albion	13

Please do, you won't be able to, and by the way net goal difference of all teams should be zero, not plus 140 odd, and don't forget to put in the dates you are comparing from and to, as above makes no sense if you are including all games that Poch managed this season.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

Please do, you won't be able to, and by the way net goal difference of all teams should be zero, not plus 140 odd

Net goal difference 140? What do you mean by that unless there's a typo I'm unaware of

Thoughts on this?

 

[Trotter]

Net goal difference 140? What do you mean by that unless there's a typo I'm unaware of

Thoughts on this?

Well if you add up the goal difference column in the table you posted, it comes to about 140, which makes the whole thing irrelevant, with 5 teams having negative goal difference, and those being very small.
By all means provide something to back your statement up (you won't be able to, however you try and cook it) but at least let it have a semblance of reliability.
Yes I am aware we lost the most of other premier league teams in 2019, 5 of them came in the Champions League though (Bayern x2, Man City, Ajax and Liverpool, 2 of which we still won the tie in, and another 2 of which we qualified through group in anyway), and despite losing quite a few in League in period to end of May 2019, we still qualified for Champions League again.

I could just as easily point out that of our last 5 managers our Points per game order is Sherwood, Pochettino, Villas-Boas, Redknapp, Mourinho, which unlike yours would be backed by stats and not taking random periods to suit an argument into account, but I won't as the comparison is irrelevant.
Why are you trying to do stats (and failing) to try and diminish our previous manager ?

 

[Dr Benson]

It's not totally unrealistic to suggest that Mourinho might bring us the FA-cup trophy this season. We need a bit of luck and Son and/or Kane back as soon as possible then.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

Well if you add up the goal difference column in the table you posted, it comes to about 140, which makes the whole thing irrelevant, with 5 teams having negative goal difference, and those being very small.
By all means provide something to back your statement up (you won't be able to, however you try and cook it) but at least let it have a semblance of reliability.
Yes I am aware we lost the most of other premier league teams in 2019, 5 of them came in the Champions League though (Bayern x2, Man City, Ajax and Liverpool, 2 of which we still won the tie in, and another 2 of which we qualified through group in anyway), and despite losing quite a few in League in period to end of May 2019, we still qualified for Champions League again.

We aren't talk about Goal difference are we? We were talking about league form, predominantly revolving around points accumulated.

That isn't my table by the way, it's via 90mina whichnyou can find onnthe link below:

The Premier League Form Table Over the Last 15 Games Is Grim Reading for Tottenham Fans

It's a new Premier League season, and some teams look to have moved on from their disappointing end to the previous campaign. Others have fallen into all-new...

www.90min.com

If I'm not allowed to post the above link, someone let me know please.

I'm looking at the info now based on all PL teams across the period specified, I'll post to show if it's correct or incorrect either way

 

[Trotter]

We aren't talk about Goal difference are we? We were talking about league form, predominantly revolving around points accumulated.

That isn't my table by the way, it's via 90mina whichnyou can find onnthe link below:

The Premier League Form Table Over the Last 15 Games Is Grim Reading for Tottenham Fans

It's a new Premier League season, and some teams look to have moved on from their disappointing end to the previous campaign. Others have fallen into all-new...

www.90min.com

If I'm not allowed to post the above link, someone let me know please.

I'm looking at the info now based on all PL teams across the period specified, I'll post to show if it's correct or incorrect either way

By all means, and then retract your statement that we were the worst team over whatever period you try and come up with.
I could just as easily say we were the worst team in the country between noon and 3pm last Saturday, and it would have more credance at the moment,

 

[Phomesy]

Why are you trying to do stats (and failing) to try and diminish our previous manager ?

Because some people think they need double down on their A) support for Pochettino's sacking and/or B) Their support for Mourinho in the face of recent results/playing style.

Conversely some who virulently oppose Mourinho's appointment will exaggerate his supposed failings even to the extent of claiming they'd prefer no trophies to any trophy playing under Mourinho.


It's all pretty stupid. But I do find the revisionist attacks on Pochettino far more annoying personally than attacks on Mourinho. Probably because I was there for the Poch era and know what a sea change it was in my life of supporting Spurs. None of which is to be proof he should never have been sacked (results based business after all) but you don't have to shit on everything that we achieved under him just because some guy on the internet is badmouthing Mourinho.

 

[Gb160]

Because some people think they need double down on their A) support for Pochettino's sacking and/or B) Their support for Mourinho in the face of recent results/playing style.

Conversely some who virulently oppose Mourinho's appointment will exaggerate his supposed failings even to the extent of claiming they'd prefer no trophies to any trophy playing under Mourinho.

This thread would be on page 2 if none of the above was posted

 

[Ionman34]

Are they remembered for their trophies or their play?

Put it this way: Nicky Butt won six Premier League titles, three FA Cups, four FA Community Shields, the UEFA Champions League and the Intercontinental Cup with Manchester United.

Will history remember him more fondly than Hoddle who won a couple of FA cups and the Uefa?

I'm not saying winning stuff isn't important - but to suggest how you play the game isn't relevant is quite clearly just as much nonsense as saying it's okay to not bother winning trophies.

Utd fans will definitely remember him more fondly than Hoddle!

But your point is a good one. What I would say is that, whilst quality players are always remembered fondly by their club fans, even worshipped to an extent, the worship is far more likely if they actually win something whilst they are there.

The other thing is, a great player will be remembered fondly, but if he wins nothing with you, then the memories are always tinged with "what if's"

 

[Enzo]

The form table for Mourinho era:

 

[Dr Benson]

The form table for Mourinho era:

View attachment 63887

All games are included in this table, right? FA-cup games and CL? Lost five of 15 games, won eight of them. Not very impressing.

 

[Enzo]

All games are included in this table, right? FA-cup games and CL?

Just the league Doc

 

[Donki]

Yeah


That's that not comparison Gb made was it? He made a blanket statement that only winners are remembered. That is manifestly untrue as evidence by the (perhaps unfair) comparison.

Glenn Hoddle is NOT remembered for the trophies he won because that stat does not reflect his impact on the game.

But to say honnors don’t reflect success is stupid, we see Hoddle as a god, trust me not all other football fans do. Look at Le Tisser you could argue he was the most gifted English player up here with Hoddle and Saints fans would it’s all about perspective bias supporters have to their own. You can’t argue with honours.

 

[Dr Benson]

Maybe this is interesting and informative: https://www.soccertutor.com/newslet...ng-an-Overload-on-the-Weak-or-Strong-Side.pdf

 

[shelfboy68]

But to say honnors don’t reflect success is stupid, we see Hoddle as a god, trust me not all other football fans do. Look at Le Tisser you could argue he was the most gifted English player up here with Hoddle and Saints fans would it’s all about perspective bias supporters have to their own. You can’t argue with honours.

Although a hero at Newcastle shearer would of been considered a bigger success had he gone to utd and bagged loads of trophies.
All the best players throughout history Pele, Cruyff, maradona, Messi, Ronaldo etc have all won top honours either at club, international or both, so yes of course honours go a long way to determine success.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

Well if you add up the goal difference column in the table you posted, it comes to about 140, which makes the whole thing irrelevant, with 5 teams having negative goal difference, and those being very small.
By all means provide something to back your statement up (you won't be able to, however you try and cook it) but at least let it have a semblance of reliability.
Yes I am aware we lost the most of other premier league teams in 2019, 5 of them came in the Champions League though (Bayern x2, Man City, Ajax and Liverpool, 2 of which we still won the tie in, and another 2 of which we qualified through group in anyway), and despite losing quite a few in League in period to end of May 2019, we still qualified for Champions League again.

I could just as easily point out that of our last 5 managers our Points per game order is Sherwood, Pochettino, Villas-Boas, Redknapp, Mourinho, which unlike yours would be backed by stats and not taking random periods to suit an argument into account, but I won't as the comparison is irrelevant.
Why are you trying to do stats (and failing) to try and diminish our previous manager ?

I'm not dominishing our previous manager, I'm stating that across his last 24 games he accumulated 25 points. At that average we'd have been looking at regulation for a lot of PL seasons.

I loved Poch but I think it's fair to say that a run of form that spans 24 Pl games isn't just a 'random period' as you stated. Daniel Levy felt the same hence why he packed him in.

It'll take me a while to dig that link up but in the meantime I do have this... the form table for every team who task taken part in the PL from the time we lost away to Burnley, when the rot started to set in through to Sheffield United 1-1 draw at home, Pochettinos last game as manager.

23rd February 2019- 9th November 2019, the 24 game period that caused concern:


Liverpool 65 points
Man City 58 points
Chelsea 48 points
Tottenham 25 points (+1 GD)
Arsenal 34 points
Man U 30 points
Wolves 33 points
Everton 35 points
Leicester 46 points
West Ham 29 points
Watford 18 points
Crystal Palace 34 points
Newcastle 32 points
Bournemouth 27 points
Burnley 25 points (-7 GD)
Southampton 23 points
Brighton 24 points
----------------------------
Cardiff 9 PLUS (Championship PL 15, W 5, D 6, L 4 = 21 points) 30 points
Fulham 9 PLUS (Championship PL 16, W 7, D 5, L 4 = 26 points) 35 points
Huddersfield 5 PLUS (Championship PL 16, W 4, D 4, L 8 = 16 points) 21 points

----------------------------
Sheffield United .....PLUS 17 (Championship PL 8, W 4, D 3, L 1 = 15 points) 32 points
Aston Villa....PLUS 11 (Championship PL 8, W 6, D 1, L 1 = 19 points) 30 points
Norwich City.....PLUS 7 (Championship - PL 13, W 9, D 4, L 0 = 31 points) 38 points


Liverpool 65 points
Man City 58 points
Chelsea 48 points
Leicester 46 points
(NORWICH 38 points)
Everton 35 points
(FULHAM 35 points)
Arsenal 34 points
Crystal Palace 34 points
Wolves 33 points
Newcastle 32 points
(Sheffield United 32 points)
(Aston Villa 30 points)
(Cardiff City 30 points)
Man United 30 points
West Ham 29 points
Bournemouth 27 points
Burnley 25 points
TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR 25 points
Brighton 24 points
Southampton 23 points
(Huddersfield 21 points)
Watford 18 points

This isn't the examples or evidence of the link, as mentioned I'll have to dig that particular time period out as I did see something a few months ago.

When you have teams like West Ham, Bournemouth, Newcastle and Crystal Palace getting more points than you/ showing better form over a 3/4 season spell, you need to leave the old manager behind and say thanks for the memories

 

[Donki]

Although a hero at Newcastle shearer would of been considered a bigger success had he gone to utd and bagged loads of trophies.
All the best players throughout history Pele, Cruyff, maradona, Messi, Ronaldo etc have all won top honours either at club, international or both, so yes of course honours go a long way to determine success.

Shearer is the all time top PL goal scorer so that elevates him, can u imagine how much he would have been thought of had Fergie managed to sign him? IMO yes of course he would, especially on an world stage. You rarely hear him spoke about when they talk about world class goal scorers, and he was one.

 

[Metalhead]

Ultimately I think that the majority of us are on the same page in that everyone agrees, even if begrudgingly by some that the man just deserves an opportunity to try and bring success. Some will never take to him but if he gets us winning trophies then that will be the factor that wins out.

 

[Phomesy]

But to say honnors don’t reflect success is stupid, we see Hoddle as a god, trust me not all other football fans do. Look at Le Tisser you could argue he was the most gifted English player up here with Hoddle and Saints fans would it’s all about perspective bias supporters have to their own. You can’t argue with honours.

I never said honours don't reflect success did I? Pretty sure I didn't because it would be nonsensical.

The statement made was (boiled down) that no one remembers playing style. Only trophies.

Le Tissier is more fondly remembered than Nicky Butt.

So is Hoddle.

That is because their medal tally is not a true reflection of their impact on the game.

Therefore the statement is manifestly false (which is not the same thing as saying honours don't matter)

Feel like I'm picking on Butt who was very decent player. You were a champ Nicky and you've got more than enough shiny medals to cry yourself to sleep over