Player Ratings v WBA

[ShelfSide18]

I can see exactly why AVB wants Moutinho.

Livermore and Sandro receive the ball head down, take a touch or two, then head up and move it on usually quite safely and conservatively. It slows us down. Problem is right now he hasn't got anything else to choose from. Personally I'd choose JJ over Livermore, he's more dynamic, but he needs to rebuild his career elsewhere because he's no chance at Spurs. Moutinho is a very capable, 2 footed, technically excellent footballer who's happy to move the ball on quickly, often first time AND he's very disciplined without the ball as well. With him and decent Ade back up I think we'd be a shoe in for 4th. A wing forward would be the cherry on top.

I think this is key, I've noticed how our CBs are splitting these first 2 games and Sandro/Livermore have dropped between them to pick the ball up, but as you say they aren't great at seeing the early pass, moving it that little bit quicker, or creatively forward. It can just be that split second that can determine whether you can catch the oppo out of shape. When VDV gets the ball he just sees things that bit quicker than the rest, and often sees things that don't exist to the likes of Sandro and Livermore. It's not that they are bad on the ball (allthough Sandro was sloppy on saturday in possession), but they are more economical. If it's Moutinho picking the ball up in between the CBs and building from there, then that will add a big dimension to our play, as will having Verty playing from the back too. If we get Moutinho, keep VDV and hopefully get, as you say, a wide forward type then we'll eat up those dropped points no problem.

I guess the issue under HR was that when we played with just Sandro as a spoiler in the middle we weren't drilled well enough off the ball to make the most of having VDV/Mod in the middle, but when we played 2 spoilers we were left with economical passers like Sandro and Parker on the ball and we plodded around a bit (Sunderland away springs to mind). Hopefully with AVBs attention to detail off coaching off the ball work we can function with VDV and Moutinho (I hope) centrally without being wafer thin like we were under HR - be nice to have the best of both worlds.

 

[steve]

I think it's partly vision Shelfy but also technical ability with both of them. If Livermore (or Sandro) passes it more than 25 yards (and it doesn't happen very often) he's very cautious before doing so and very anxious afterwards. They're careful passers, deliberate and methodical because they don't trust themselves technically to do what Mod or VDV can.

Moutinho is an excellent one touch player and sees it before the ball comes like you say - he hasn't got Mods grace or guile on the
ball but that shouldn't detract from what he can do very well. I totally agree that he could be played with VDV and Parker/Sandro because he's much better off the ball than Modric and is happy to do the defensive stuff and well.

It's a shame we look like missing out on him and I don't agree at all that Dembele is the right compromise as he's a very different player who plays a very different way - I'm not against picking him up but as well as Moutinho not instead of.

I forgot to mention the higher line we played Saturday too which seemed a compromise on what he did at Chelsea. It worked mostly but caused problems later on as the players struggled a bit. Without pressing the midfield and fullbacks so well second half it puts the back 4 under pressure and with Lukaku about they got themselves into trouble sometimes. Not a worry yet but will be if it happens regularly.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think it's partly vision Shelfy but also technical ability with both of them. If Livermore (or Sandro) passes it more than 25 yards (and it doesn't happen very often) he's very cautious before doing so and very anxious afterwards. They're careful passers, deliberate and methodical because they don't trust themselves technically to do what Mod or VDV can.

Moutinho is an excellent one touch player and sees it before the ball comes like you say - he hasn't got Mods grace or guile on the
ball but that shouldn't detract from what he can do very well. I totally agree that he could be played with VDV and Parker/Sandro because he's much better off the ball than Modric and is happy to do the defensive stuff and well.

It's a shame we look like missing out on him and I don't agree at all that Dembele is the right compromise as he's a very different player who plays a very different way - I'm not against picking him up but as well as Moutinho not instead of.

I forgot to mention the higher line we played Saturday too which seemed a compromise on what he did at Chelsea. It worked mostly but caused problems later on as the players struggled a bit. Without pressing the midfield and fullbacks so well second half it puts the back 4 under pressure and with Lukaku about they got themselves into trouble sometimes. Not a worry yet but will be if it happens regularly.

Yes I'll go along with that Steve.

I think Livermore and Sandro are decent enough technically, but I do think it's the way the VDVs/Mods of the world see the space of the pitch in their heads which sets them apart, apart from certain players who have great technique but not the vision and game intelligence to apply it. Livermore puzzles me a bit, because occasionally he can pull out a fabulous ball like he did inside the full back for Lennon - maybe if he trusted his technique a bit more he might show this more often? I've seen enough of him to show me he could be useful squad player, but he needs to do this more often as he does have a tendency to just drift through games, not doing too much wrong, but not adding that much value when we go forward, and not being tenacious or nasty enough when screening the defence. I'll be interested to see his progression under AVB.

I've not seen much of Moutinho at all to comment, but I like what you say in that he's one of these 'half-touch' players which would be great for when we play from deep, just to get that ball moving that split second quicker, and with a bit more intelligence and craft. I can't see us not getting in a CM, just not sure who at the moment if Mouts doesn't come through - but I like the sound of having a middle 3 of a passer/creator/spoiler.

The high line will of course take time, that with the pressing. Noticeable that both games our first halves have been good but we have lost our way in the second. This should be expected I guess, it's a new system and the players are really going to have to buy into it to make it happen quickly which I think they are. It's going to go wrong at times and I just hope AVB instils a belief in his methods because that ultimately is the only way it is going to succeed. Smash Norwich with it and that will be the first step.

 

[steve]

Yes I'll go along with that Steve.

I think Livermore and Sandro are decent enough technically, but I do think it's the way the VDVs/Mods of the world see the space of the pitch in their heads which sets them apart, apart from certain players who have great technique but not the vision and game intelligence to apply it. Livermore puzzles me a bit, because occasionally he can pull out a fabulous ball like he did inside the full back for Lennon - maybe if he trusted his technique a bit more he might show this more often? I've seen enough of him to show me he could be useful squad player, but he needs to do this more often as he does have a tendency to just drift through games, not doing too much wrong, but not adding that much value when we go forward, and not being tenacious or nasty enough when screening the defence. I'll be interested to see his progression under AVB.

I've not seen much of Moutinho at all to comment, but I like what you say in that he's one of these 'half-touch' players which would be great for when we play from deep, just to get that ball moving that split second quicker, and with a bit more intelligence and craft. I can't see us not getting in a CM, just not sure who at the moment if Mouts doesn't come through - but I like the sound of having a middle 3 of a passer/creator/spoiler.

The high line will of course take time, that with the pressing. Noticeable that both games our first halves have been good but we have lost our way in the second. This should be expected I guess, it's a new system and the players are really going to have to buy into it to make it happen quickly which I think they are. It's going to go wrong at times and I just hope AVB instils a belief in his methods because that ultimately is the only way it is going to succeed. Smash Norwich with it and that will be the first step.

Agreed. Pretty sure it was Walker who threaded the pass in behind for Lennon though.

Livermore's ok at everything the problem is he has nothing that is better than that in his armoury. Maybe his temperament which says it all. Sandro can be a piss poor passer at times but his defensive work is top drawer. I have no problem with Livermore being a bench bunny I just don't want him starting every week unless we've got some major injuries.

I'm really starting to wonder about Sig. Was it £8m well spent?

 

[StartingPrice]

Agreed. Pretty sure it was Walker who threaded the pass in behind for Lennon though.

Livermore's ok at everything the problem is he has nothing that is better than that in his armoury. Maybe his temperament which says it all. Sandro can be a piss poor passer at times but his defensive work is top drawer. I have no problem with Livermore being a bench bunny I just don't want him starting every week unless we've got some major injuries.

I'm really starting to wonder about Sig. Was it £8m well spent?

Nah, it was Livermore, M8
He also spreads the play with some gusto at times.
I agree with SS18 - with a bit of top-notch coaching and some confidence in his abilities, I think he can be a useful squad player for us, and we really need to be looking for that from the youth set-up.

 

[steve]

Nah, it was Livermore, M8
He also spreads the play with some gusto at times.
I agree with SS18 - with a bit of top-notch coaching and some confidence in his abilities, I think he can be a useful squad player for us, and we really need to be looking for that from the youth set-up.

The one in behind the fullback that Lennon cut back for VDV? Just watched it again, it was Walker.

 

[StartingPrice]

The one in behind the fullback that Lennon cut back for VDV? Just watched it again, it was Walker.

Both me and SS identified it as Livermore independently, with me, both in game time and on MOTD. He's well within the centre-circle. Is that the one you are talking about? Do you have a clip of it?

 

[steve]

Both me and SS identified it as Livermore independently, with me, both in game time and on MOTD. He's well within the centre-circle. Is that the one you are talking about? Do you have a clip of it?

1st half. Sandro lays it square to Walker - Livermore is standing next to him. Lennon runs Walker puts it inside the fullback, Lennon cuts it back (and falls over), VDV shoots right footed but wide of the near post. It's defo Walker.

On my sky box can't clip it on here.

 

[ShelfSide18]

24 and my eyesight is already going... not quite as bad as a fella at the Emirates a few years back who was berating Jenas for 90 minutes, when he wasn't playing. It was actually KPB.

I'll take your word for it, great to see Walker playing a lovely ball like that though - other than the Newcastle goal(yeah I know quite an exception to make!), been quite impressed with his play so far.

 

[StartingPrice]

1st half. Sandro lays it square to Walker - Livermore is standing next to him. Lennon runs Walker puts it inside the fullback, Lennon cuts it back (and falls over), VDV shoots right footed but wide of the near post. It's defo Walker.

On my sky box can't clip it on here.

In lieu of evidence, I'll take your word for it

I remember doing this with Sandro a couple of seasons ago - don't know if it is my eyesight or the quality of some of these feeds (though I did see it agian on MOTD ).

I take it all back...Livermore is a ...

24 and my eyesight is already going... not quite as bad as a fella at the Emirates a few years back who was berating Jenas for 90 minutes, when he wasn't playing. It was actually KPB.

I'll take your word for it, great to see Walker playing a lovely ball like that though - other than the Newcastle goal(yeah I know quite an exception to make!), been quite impressed with his play so far.

I remember you reporting that on here at the time =

 

[YiddoJames]

Particularly first half Livermore won the ball well on various occasions. He did well defensively.

That seems to have been ignored because people didn't like the midfield balance, which is another matter, and the manager's decision. Not Livermore's fault!

He looked like a player who has improved and grown in confidence from last year to me.

 

[ShelfSide18]

Agreed. Pretty sure it was Walker who threaded the pass in behind for Lennon though.

Livermore's ok at everything the problem is he has nothing that is better than that in his armoury. Maybe his temperament which says it all. Sandro can be a piss poor passer at times but his defensive work is top drawer. I have no problem with Livermore being a bench bunny I just don't want him starting every week unless we've got some major injuries.

I'm really starting to wonder about Sig. Was it £8m well spent?

I doubt once we have brought in a couple of players that Livermore will be anywhere near a first team shoe in, but he has come in and played capably and that is I guess what we need him to do. As I said it will be interesting to see if he does progress under AVB, whether he can unlock that little bit extra.

Sig is a puzzler, but I will reserve judgement for the time being - I'm not even sure what type of player he is just yet, all I know is he's got an eye for goal and y'know, that comes in handy. I don't want him to replace VDV, but I think we should get used to a lot more rotation from AVB, so he will get gametime, and he should plant in a few goals and we may look back on some as the reason we nicked 4th - we need to score a few more from midfield as it is, I just would like to see what he offers the team dynamic other than a useful source of goals.

 

[sbrustad]

In lieu of evidence, I'll take your word for it

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure it was Walker playing that pass too, I think I mentioned it in my ratings anyway. Can't replay it since I didn't record the match.

 

[StartingPrice]

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure it was Walker playing that pass too, I think I mentioned it in my ratings anyway. Can't replay it since I didn't record the match.

SP fumbles for his glasses for future reference

 

[jonathanhotspur]

24 and my eyesight is already going... not quite as bad as a fella at the Emirates a few years back who was berating Jenas for 90 minutes, when he wasn't playing. It was actually KPB.

I'll take your word for it, great to see Walker playing a lovely ball like that though - other than the Newcastle goal(yeah I know quite an exception to make!), been quite impressed with his play so far.

I was reading Windy's analysis of the goal we conceded and he says Walker didn't track Morrison's run into the box. It was a catalogue of errors but Windy was right.

 

[steve]

I was reading Windy's analysis of the goal we conceded and he says Walker didn't track Morrison's run into the box. It was a catalogue of errors but Windy was right.

Walkers done it a few times. Switches off and ball watches at key moments, like at Swansea last season. I think he's got a problem concentrating his attention sometimes. He's tenacious but he lacks thoughtfulness and sometimes composure. A reactive player rather than a thinking one.