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Player Watch - Tanguy Ndombele

Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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It’s pretty well established that when Mourinho returned to Chelsea, De Bruyne had just had a great loan at Werder and wanted to make it permanent. Mourinho said no, that he needed him, and De Bruyne started the season in the side, but didn’t do much and once he was dropped he was unable to get his place back ahead of Hazard, Lampard, Willian, Schürrle, Oscar and Mata (who also left in January). Mourinho wanted to keep him but made it clear that De Bruyne would have to prove he deserved to play ahead of the others, and De Bruyne asked to leave as he wanted to be first choice there and then.

Off the back of these sales, Mourinho pushed for Salah specifically to be bought to replenish the stocks in creative positions, that same January. The plan was for the young winger who’d lit up the Swiss league to come in, learn, develop and push to become first choice. However, the start of the next season (in which Chelsea won the 14/15 title, which vindicates any decisions) he barely featured ahead of Fàbregas, Hazard, Oscar, and Willian so was given a loan in the January 15 transfer window to Fiorentina, where he did well. He was meant to stay for 18 months till summer 16, but Roma batted their eyelids at him so he refused to go back to Fiorentina and Chelsea obliged his wishes to see out his Italy stint in Rome. By the time that loan ended, Mourinho had been sacked after a poor start to 15/16 and Salah was allowed to join Roma permanently.

Both Salah and De Bruyne were in their twenties and established internationals by the time Mourinho got hold of them. They were just behind players who were at that point better than them and were not willing to wait for the opportunity. History shows they were right not to wait given how their respective careers have evolved, but the 14/15 League and League Cup success vindicates Mourinho’s preference to play other players, two of whom, Oscar and Hazard, were the same age and find themselves very much amidst the many examples of Uber talented young players who, by buying into Mourinho’s demands, excelled under his management.


I think that also demonstrates that Mourinho is very much focussed on the 'here and now' and not overly bothered about what might be in a couple of season's time. That is in no way a criticism because we've suffered badly from having teams in the past with 50% current star players and 50% gaping holes. If players like Hojbjerg come in at reasonable fees and we can plug some of the gaps I think we'll be all the better for it instead of waiting to sign more star players which always creates issues around finances, availability and their desire to play for us. We're then always in the situation of needing a couple more bits of the jigsaw. In the past we've plugged the gaps with very speculative recruits who have overall been expensive flops. I remember a story about Bill Nicholson who was asked something about the 'luxury' players we had. He replied that the 'luxury' players were the ones that were drawing wages but never got on the pitch because they weren't good enough. Never a truer word.
 

wrd

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Aug 22, 2014
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I think that also demonstrates that Mourinho is very much focussed on the 'here and now' and not overly bothered about what might be in a couple of season's time. That is in no way a criticism because we've suffered badly from having teams in the past with 50% current star players and 50% gaping holes. If players like Hojbjerg come in at reasonable fees and we can plug some of the gaps I think we'll be all the better for it instead of waiting to sign more star players which always creates issues around finances, availability and their desire to play for us. We're then always in the situation of needing a couple more bits of the jigsaw. In the past we've plugged the gaps with very speculative recruits who have overall been expensive flops. I remember a story about Bill Nicholson who was asked something about the 'luxury' players we had. He replied that the 'luxury' players were the ones that were drawing wages but never got on the pitch because they weren't good enough. Never a truer word.

I get the impression that the way Jose is going about the summer business is winning over a lot of fans, I know he wasn't your first choice but are you feeling more optimistic due to his approach to the window?
 

Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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I get the impression that the way Jose is going about the summer business is winning over a lot of fans, I know he wasn't your first choice but are you feeling more optimistic due to his approach to the window?

I think he's doing a very good job as our manager and is (surprisingly) working within Levy's boundaries. I think he'll address our weakest areas pragmatically which will make us stronger, whereas Poch seemed intent on letting stuff go bad to prove his point. I also think he's shown some really nice tactical approaches after the lockdown whereas prior to it there was a load of absolute dross dished up - so, positives there. I haven't changed my opinion of him as a person though, and we'll have to wait and see how he handles himself when things aren't quite so rosy. Hopefully it won't come to that.
 

BringBack_leGin

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Jul 28, 2004
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I feel filthy agreeing with you! I was not a fan of the appointment but have accepted it and moved on. Go Jose!

There’s a whole load of managers I’d prefer over Mourinho for a variety of reasons, but I will never hammer a manager until he’s given me tangible reasons to do so, and I’ll always be supportive while we’re overall going in the right direction, even facilitating blips and poor runs. Obviously this lasts different amounts of time in difference circumstances. Additionally, I’ll always argue against a lazy common rhetoric if the evidence suggests otherwise. Wasn’t an attack at all on yankspurs, he’s further from it all than most of us and is slave to not just the bullshit opinions in the UK, but also the way they’re translated by pundits on his side of the pond, more an attack on yet another falsehood which seems to be accepted roundly as fact.

I think that also demonstrates that Mourinho is very much focussed on the 'here and now' and not overly bothered about what might be in a couple of season's time. That is in no way a criticism because we've suffered badly from having teams in the past with 50% current star players and 50% gaping holes. If players like Hojbjerg come in at reasonable fees and we can plug some of the gaps I think we'll be all the better for it instead of waiting to sign more star players which always creates issues around finances, availability and their desire to play for us. We're then always in the situation of needing a couple more bits of the jigsaw. In the past we've plugged the gaps with very speculative recruits who have overall been expensive flops. I remember a story about Bill Nicholson who was asked something about the 'luxury' players we had. He replied that the 'luxury' players were the ones that were drawing wages but never got on the pitch because they weren't good enough. Never a truer word.
Absolutely agreed, but equally Jose has always been tasked with overnight delivery of success as his MO, and he’s always delivered too. More than valuing experience over youth, I think he’s just applied a bit of old fashioned ‘if you’re good enough, you’re old enough’, hence why while certain obvious examples haven’t succeeded under him, other talented young players absolutely have and in some instance peaked under him too (Ozil, Joe Cole and Oscar). It’s just that part of his criteria for being good enough is sacrificing some of your attacking inclination for more off the ball effort, which in turn leaves the unit more solid and means you’ll have more opportunity to attack than if you weren’t putting in the keg work.

Lo Celso twigged. Hopefully Ndombele does too.
 

Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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There’s a whole load of managers I’d prefer over Mourinho for a variety of reasons, but I will never hammer a manager until he’s given me tangible reasons to do so, and I’ll always be supportive while we’re overall going in the right direction, even facilitating blips and poor runs. Obviously this lasts different amounts of time in difference circumstances. Additionally, I’ll always argue against a lazy common rhetoric if the evidence suggests otherwise. Wasn’t an attack at all on yankspurs, he’s further from it all than most of us and is slave to not just the bullshit opinions in the UK, but also the way they’re translated by pundits on his side of the pond, more an attack on yet another falsehood which seems to be accepted roundly as fact.


Absolutely agreed, but equally Jose has always been tasked with overnight delivery of success as his MO, and he’s always delivered too. More than valuing experience over youth, I think he’s just applied a bit of old fashioned ‘if you’re good enough, you’re old enough’, hence why while certain obvious examples haven’t succeeded under him, other talented young players absolutely have and in some instance peaked under him too (Ozil, Joe Cole and Oscar). It’s just that part of his criteria for being good enough is sacrificing some of your attacking inclination for more off the ball effort, which in turn leaves the unit more solid and means you’ll have more opportunity to attack than if you weren’t putting in the keg work.

Lo Celso twigged. Hopefully Ndombele does too.


Agreed, although I'll be pissed off if we bin Foyth and Ndombele (although I'm more ambivalent about TN). I'd have also been pretty pissed off if we'd gone after Willian or anyone else that close to the end of the road on huge wages. I'm quite happy to give JM a wholw season and transfar windows to see where it takes us. In for a penny, in for a pound.
 

jay2040

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Aug 31, 2012
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With uber talented young players? Im not so sure. De Bruyne and Salah are world class and he loaned then sold them off as quickly as he got them.

Did they win a trophy that season? I honestly don't know however players come and go and if they did not fit the team at that point in time its reasonable to move them on.
 

even steven

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Aug 22, 2013
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De Bruyne started the season in the side, but didn’t do much and once he was dropped he was unable to get his place back ahead of Hazard, Lampard, Willian, Schürrle, Oscar and Mata (who also left in January).

Not entirely true. He played a total of 132 minutes in the Prem until Jan... Not really much of a chance to prove himself considering he was imo better than Oscar at that moment in time too, having watched him in the Bundesliga.

It can be spun a lot of ways but he let one of the most promising midfielders go, to then become the best midfielder in the world.

I think we should keep a balanced approach when assessing his handling and judgement of players and he got this one massively wrong imo.
 

BringBack_leGin

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Jul 28, 2004
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Not entirely true. He played a total of 132 minutes in the Prem until Jan... Not really much of a chance to prove himself considering he was imo better than Oscar at that moment in time too, having watched him in the Bundesliga.

It can be spun a lot of ways but he let one of the most promising midfielders go, to then become the best midfielder in the world.

I think we should keep a balanced approach when assessing his handling and judgement of players and he got this one massively wrong imo.
Started 2 of 3 opening fixtures in the league, came on three times in the champions league (albeit limited minutes) and started their first three league cup matches. He had chances to impress. Mourinho clearly felt the other attacking midfielders offered more.

Mourinho prerogative wasn’t to play whoever out of Hazard, Lampard, Willian, Schürrle, Oscar, Mata and De Bruyne was going to end up the best 3/4 years later, it was to play whoever was going to win him games there and then. Given that he achieved Chelsea’s first title in 5 seasons the following season, I think the most negative conclusion that could be drawn is that Mourinho could’ve managed De Bruyne’s frustrations better to ensure he didn’t leave, because there is no evidence to suggest that he’d have contributed more than the other creative players Mourinho used, only that he eventually became as good as a couple of them and better than most of them.

Who knows, maybe he’d have switched it on after playing his way into form, but if you’re Mourinho and
  • Abramovch has just spent £50m on Schürrle and William for you, and
  • you’ve already got Mata, Lampard, Hazard and Oscar, the latter two of which costs £50m combined and the four of them each made 30+ league appearances the previous season (well, Lampard 29) with all of them starting 20+ league matches,
  • in a side that finished 3rd and won the Europa league,
how easy is it to make the choice to reduce their minutes for the sake of the bright talent who has barely played at all for Chelsea and was underwhelming in the first few games?

It is true to say that Mourinho allowed an unbelievable talent who has gone on to be a genius of the game to leave. It is also true to say that at the point this happened, he was developing a great side based on attackers who were showing him what he needed to see in order to play them.

Have you considered that failing with Chelsea might even be the reason De Bruyne became the player he is? Kick up the arse he needed perhaps?
 

even steven

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Aug 22, 2013
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Started 2 of 3 opening fixtures in the league, came on three times in the champions league (albeit limited minutes) and started their first three league cup matches. He had chances to impress. Mourinho clearly felt the other attacking midfielders offered more.

Mourinho prerogative wasn’t to play whoever out of Hazard, Lampard, Willian, Schürrle, Oscar, Mata and De Bruyne was going to end up the best 3/4 years later, it was to play whoever was going to win him games there and then. Given that he achieved Chelsea’s first title in 5 seasons the following season, I think the most negative conclusion that could be drawn is that Mourinho could’ve managed De Bruyne’s frustrations better to ensure he didn’t leave, because there is no evidence to suggest that he’d have contributed more than the other creative players Mourinho used, only that he eventually became as good as a couple of them and better than most of them.

Who knows, maybe he’d have switched it on after playing his way into form, but if you’re Mourinho and
  • Abramovch has just spent £50m on Schürrle and William for you, and
  • you’ve already got Mata, Lampard, Hazard and Oscar, the latter two of which costs £50m combined and the four of them each made 30+ league appearances the previous season (well, Lampard 29) with all of them starting 20+ league matches,
  • in a side that finished 3rd and won the Europa league,
how easy is it to make the choice to reduce their minutes for the sake of the bright talent who has barely played at all for Chelsea and was underwhelming in the first few games?

It is true to say that Mourinho allowed an unbelievable talent who has gone on to be a genius of the game to leave. It is also true to say that at the point this happened, he was developing a great side based on attackers who were showing him what he needed to see in order to play them.

Have you considered that failing with Chelsea might even be the reason De Bruyne became the player he is? Kick up the arse he needed perhaps?

Fair points but I truly believe De Bruyne was well on his way to where he is now before Chelsea sold him. He got a nice assist on his debut in the Prem, started one more game, then only went on to make 1 more sub appreances in the league, whilst not even making the bench pretty much every fixture. There was evidence to show what he can do before going back to Chelsea, then directly afterwards when going back to Bremen.

I just think it has to be a concern when looking at this, the way he’s handled some other players in the past and now with our promising talent in Ndombele. I’d hate for us in a few years to look back at Ndombele the way Chelsea fans will look at De Bruyne now.

Ndombele has barely been given the chance in games, even from the bench, much like de Bruyne wasn’t either... That’s no way to try and play yourself into form and have the possibility of reaching your potential
 

BringBack_leGin

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Jul 28, 2004
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Fair points but I truly believe De Bruyne was well on his way to where he is now before Chelsea sold him. He got a nice assist on his debut in the Prem, started one more game, then only went on to make 1 more sub appreances in the league, whilst not even making the bench pretty much every fixture. There was evidence to show what he can do before going back to Chelsea, then directly afterwards when going back to Bremen.

I just think it has to be a concern when looking at this, the way he’s handled some other players in the past and now with our promising talent in Ndombele. I’d hate for us in a few years to look back at Ndombele the way Chelsea fans will look at De Bruyne now.

Ndombele has barely been given the chance in games, even from the bench, much like de Bruyne wasn’t either... That’s no way to try and play yourself into form and have the possibility of reaching your potential
I think that if in two decades of management the worst example of Mourinho dropping the ball with a big talent is a guy who though exceptional now, at that point was behind several established flair players and who wanted to leave Chelsea before Mourinho was even appointed, then we’re ok.
 

even steven

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Aug 22, 2013
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I think that if in two decades of management the worst example of Mourinho dropping the ball with a big talent is a guy who though exceptional now, at that point was behind several established flair players and who wanted to leave Chelsea before Mourinho was even appointed, then we’re ok.

Oh he 100% gets it right more often than not and I’ll back him. But at the same time, he’s not perfect and it’s ok the criticise him when he warrants it.

I think he made a blunder the way he handled De Bruyne and the way Ndombele has been handled post lockdown I don’t think has been good either. Let’s see what happens
 

BringBack_leGin

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Oh he 100% gets it right more often than not and I’ll back him. But at the same time, he’s not perfect and it’s ok the criticise him when he warrants it.

I think he made a blunder the way he handled De Bruyne and the way Ndombele has been handled post lockdown I don’t think has been good either. Let’s see what happens
He may well have made a blunder with De Bruyne but there’s only circumstantial evidence to back that train of thought up, whereas there are many examples of players with similar styles and at similar junctures in their careers investing in Jose’s demands and having great spells under him.

Or, to put it another way, if we end up with success based on Jose putting together a side of players who buy into him, including attacking players, then I could live with Ndombele, who’s shown us a few nice glimpses and a load of faff, become a superstar elsewhere. I’d rather he didn’t, he’s a wonderful talent and I want to see him succeed with us, but ultimately our success with this manager hinges on players doing what he asks them to, not on Ndombele’s flourishing or otherwise. That’s not to say that the two are mutually exclusively, but if it is a choice between the too then based on history, including the De Bruyne story, I’m with the manager.
 

even steven

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Aug 22, 2013
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He may well have made a blunder with De Bruyne but there’s only circumstantial evidence to back that train of thought up, whereas there are many examples of players with similar styles and at similar junctures in their careers investing in Jose’s demands and having great spells under him.

Or, to put it another way, if we end up with success based on Jose putting together a side of players who buy into him, including attacking players, then I could live with Ndombele, who’s shown us a few nice glimpses and a load of faff, become a superstar elsewhere. I’d rather he didn’t, he’s a wonderful talent and I want to see him succeed with us, but ultimately our success with this manager hinges on players doing what he asks them to, not on Ndombele’s flourishing or otherwise. That’s not to say that the two are mutually exclusively, but if it is a choice between the too then based on history, including the De Bruyne story, I’m with the manager.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the last point. I’m not with him on De Bruyne at all.

Also goes into why some brand him a short term manager. Where would Chelsea’s success be now had they kept hold of De Bruyne? Would Real Madrid have won the 3 Champions leagues without Modric after he was branded flop of the year before Mourinho was sacked? What would the state of Man U be right now if Pogba had left when they fell out? As much as a success as he’s been, there have always been doubts around the way he handled some players.

The success of the team will always come first but we need to be careful at the same time here with the way Ndombele is handled.
 

mr ashley

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Jan 27, 2011
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I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the last point. I’m not with him on De Bruyne at all.

Also goes into why some brand him a short term manager. Where would Chelsea’s success be now had they kept hold of De Bruyne? Would Real Madrid have won the 3 Champions leagues without Modric after he was branded flop of the year before Mourinho was sacked? What would the state of Man U be right now if Pogba had left when they fell out? As much as a success as he’s been, there have always been doubts around the way he handled some players.

The success of the team will always come first but we need to be careful at the same time here with the way Ndombele is handled.
Your argument so heavily based on hindsight.

As you know, you could quite easily argue that Chelsea’s success could have been non-existent if they’d relied upon a youthful De Bruyne instead of effective match winners like hazard and Oscar. Which may have led to De Bruyne staying at Chelsea and never getting the chance to function excellently in a Pep system, playing with like-minded players such as David Silva.

You could just as easily argue that Man Utd’s resurgence has been a result of the addition of Bruno Fernandes, and how they’ve become a better unit with Martial stepping up to play CF, and Greenwood making up the third part of their front 3 than anything Pogba has done this season.

If you want to claim that Jose is a short term manager (who wins), then go ahead.
I hope he does, and if that means we lose out on a Skipp, Tanganga or even Ndombele becoming great in place of some significant success (like winning the league), I’ll take that. I’m sure that’s why he’s been appointed.
 

poc

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Aug 6, 2004
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I keep seeing people saying this, but can’t for the life of me remember a single stand out performance from him in a Spurs shirt. Genuine question, why do you think he’s so great?

Talent is nothing if you don’t put the effort in, and we have seen time and again that he simply can’t or won’t put a shift in.

I’m more than happy to give him time to prove me wrong, but I also won’t be mad if the club decide to cash in their chips on this guy.
It’s just while he has his ten minutes of real energy he is able to go past players with relative ease and seems able to create momentum and worry defended which for a lot of the time we find very hard to do. Beyond that 10-20 minutes, he is then blowing out of his arse he becomes a liability.
 

even steven

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Aug 22, 2013
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Your argument so heavily based on hindsight.

As you know, you could quite easily argue that Chelsea’s success could have been non-existent if they’d relied upon a youthful De Bruyne instead of effective match winners like hazard and Oscar. Which may have led to De Bruyne staying at Chelsea and never getting the chance to function excellently in a Pep system, playing with like-minded players such as David Silva.

You could just as easily argue that Man Utd’s resurgence has been a result of the addition of Bruno Fernandes, and how they’ve become a better unit with Martial stepping up to play CF, and Greenwood making up the third part of their front 3 than anything Pogba has done this season.

If you want to claim that Jose is a short term manager (who wins), then go ahead.
I hope he does, and if that means we lose out on a Skipp, Tanganga or even Ndombele becoming great in place of some significant success (like winning the league), I’ll take that. I’m sure that’s why he’s been appointed.

My argument is that we need to be extremely careful with the way we handle the Ndombele situation but yes, hindsight will only tell us whether we’re right to keep hold or sell.

I’ll back José with what he decides to do (keep/sell) but we can’t act like he isn’t capable of getting it wrong sometimes.

We also need to be careful that if we do sell then Levy backs him with a top quality midfielder as a replacement.
 

mr ashley

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Jan 27, 2011
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My argument is that we need to be extremely careful with the way we handle the Ndombele situation but yes, hindsight will only tell us whether we’re right to keep hold or sell.

I’ll back José with what he decides to do (keep/sell) but we can’t act like he isn’t capable of getting it wrong sometimes.

We also need to be careful that if we do sell then Levy backs him with a top quality midfielder as a replacement.
Agree re replacement, I’ve asked the question regarding who in another thread.
But you were talking about De Bruyne as of everything he’s achieved would have automatically happened at Chelsea if he’d stayed. That’s a stretch.
I do think Jose gets way too much stick for his role in both the de Bruyne and Salah situations.
Personally I think the revolving door policy regarding the manager at Chelsea is more to blame for these ‘misses’, because if Jose had been the only person looking to get rid of them both, Emenalo and Abramovich would have probably said no.
So it’s a lazy narrative to pin the blame on Jose.
As has been pointed out, every manager is capable of a duff signing, but the reasons for a player not flourishing in a specific club, under a certain manager, are way to many to predict that lightening will strike twice.
FWIW, I really hope TN stays, and I think Hojbjerg has been signed to make a formidable midfield 3, with Lo Celso completing the trio
 

Japhet

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Aug 30, 2010
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I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the last point. I’m not with him on De Bruyne at all.

Also goes into why some brand him a short term manager. Where would Chelsea’s success be now had they kept hold of De Bruyne? Would Real Madrid have won the 3 Champions leagues without Modric after he was branded flop of the year before Mourinho was sacked? What would the state of Man U be right now if Pogba had left when they fell out? As much as a success as he’s been, there have always been doubts around the way he handled some players.

The success of the team will always come first but we need to be careful at the same time here with the way Ndombele is handled.


There's really no point in liking or disliking particular aspects of how things are shaping up. We're all just along for the ride and hoping for the best. Our opinions on any of it count for absolutely nothing save using this forum as a sounding board. I'm OK with that.
 

Ronwol196061

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Apr 9, 2018
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I think it comes down to three things. One is price,(can we get our money back or not) 2...his reaction to getting a solid DM behind him and third whether JM is still interested in taking a chance
 

Ronwol196061

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Apr 9, 2018
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There's really no point in liking or disliking particular aspects of how things are shaping up. We're all just along for the ride and hoping for the best. Our opinions on any of it count for absolutely nothing save using this forum as a sounding board. I'm OK with that.
Japhet the only thing is that without opinions (and it's all for nowt anyway) what would a blog be?
 
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