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Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189

Spurs' Pipe Dreams

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2011
20,008
32,728
I don’t think my post can be called reactionary at all.

My view is Poch has done an excellent job overall and Ali is right that this is a difficult time.

I don’t believe in putting all the blame on Levy anymore than Poch.

I do believe that Poch is not managing the current situation well though that alone is not reason to fire him.

I am on the fence with regards to sacking him. I err on the side of firing as I believe very few managers turn things around when performances are bad for such a long time. I also don’t believe the players that want to stay are busting a gut for him which is a worrying sign.

You put up an article, I assume so we could read it and discuss it. So why get defensive over the fact you didn’t write it?

I got 3 replies and so tried to reply to all, rather than write out 3 separate ones, apologies if I came across curt or short.

Yours was one that was discussing the article rather than attacking Pochettino and I should have replied separately to yours.

Performances have been fairly poor for a year, which the article discusses but during that year we've also had a CL final beating Man City over two legs and an Ajax 2nd leg 2nd half which can only be described as magical.

Kane obviously wasn't fully fit yesterday after an illness and a full 90 mins on Wednesday, I lost count of the times that instead of going up for challenges from long clearances he was still coming back from offside, giving the Sheff Utd defender a free header and allowing them to keep possession, that's on Poch for not having a back up and Levy for not allowing the funds to get one but is easily sortable.

There have been glimpses this season of where we are going and the 3 signings have all been positive although I think Ndombele gets a bit of an easy ride on his defensive side because he's so very good on the ball but I digress.

The next month and Christmas is when we will really see where we will end up this season, we've had Arsenal, Liverpool and Man City away in these opening months and only 1 defeat in there, it's the home form that is the major problem but the new stadium cannot be discounted as a factor, it takes time to adjust, it did for Wembley (the last time people were saying the same things about Poch and the team).

I just feel that the eternal negative posters (why I don't go in the match threads anymore) are just so very tiring that even when we are doing well they pick on individual players mistakes. United fans are the worst, they feel they still have a god-given right to be winning everything and some (not all) Spurs supporters (due to the relative success of the last few years) have fallen into that trap.

Look, I cheat...I've written about it before, I celebrate the wins and meh the losses 35+ years of supporting Spurs and I know that we will have waxes and wanes, that there will be dips to go with the peaks. I used to take the losses to heart, I used to let it affect my mood but 22 millionaires being coached by a millionaire and owned by a billionaire is so far away from me individually having any influence that screaming into the void about Sissoko being shit or Dier's terrible passing yesterday is all pretty pointless and so I enjoy football and Tottenham winning and let the losses go, I'll still be supporting and hoping Tottenham win against West Ham though.

That all being said if we had managed to get Eriksen, Toby and Jan on new contracts and signed a RB to balance Rose we may have actually had a real chance this season but we didn't so I'm not angry, just accepting that this is where we are and considering where we have come from and the stadium we now have, the long term future doesn't seem too bad.

Sorry for the rambling reply but I'm just at the point in which this season may be a disappointing one but making massive changes to a formula that has seen us move into CL regulars, just doesn't sit right, especially when you consider that whoever we get instead probably won't be better than what we already have, Pochettino is only 47, that's only 5 years older than me and 10+ years into a possible 30+ year career, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho just from the PL all had rebuilding seasons and the 3rd who's won everything has been sacked loads, sometimes the grass isn't always greener
 
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Spurs' Pipe Dreams

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2011
20,008
32,728
My answer to your two questions, SPD is:
  1. I honestly can't see who we could realistically get who could replace Poch and first replicate and then build on what he's done
  2. He would succeed at another club, I have little doubt.
The problem, or rather, what has turned this into a huge problem, rather than just a significant one is Poch's public persona and pronouncements.

If he hadn't suddenly developed this hot-and-cold, moody persona in press conferences and, most pertinently, hadn't spouted that bollocks about leaving if we won the CL, even if he said it in jest, I think a certain section of the fans wouldn't be quite so vocal in their condemnation.

Obviously, it's impossible to expect any person to get it right every single time, but those public persona gaffs are a little like goalkeeper howlers - you could have a perfectly good goalkeeper, who time and again makes routine but good saves and helps the team, but it's their occasional howlers that live on in people's memories and they use that to judge the player on, rather than all the times he's made decent saves.

The whole situation is very dispiriting and confusing.

Too many people make statements of 'fact', when in actuality it's nothing but supposition based on information of uncertain provenance. The number of times I've seen statements like, 'it's clear he's lost the dressing room' or 'it's clear he can't sort this out'. Really? How is it clear? Not one of the people making these statements spends any time in and around the actual club, so they are just supposing. That said, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong.

Likewise, statements like, 'the best manager since blah-blah and some fans want to get rid of him' are equally bad, especially when they are levelled as broadsides against people who are, justifiably, upset with our current performance levels and position in the League. But likewise, they too may not be wrong.

The thing that depresses me most is the itch that so many have to cast blame - as if there has to be a villain of the piece for them to blast their ire at. Few have shown any desire to say that maybe, just maybe, this is a more complicated situation than they realise and that simple, broad 'solutions' like sacking the manager or benching such-and-such or getting rid of the chairman won't actually solve the underlying issues.

I don't know what the best path is. I do know that we aren't doing well right now. I also believe that there is no one root cause behind it and that it will undoubtedly be a combination of factors that are contributing. With that belief, even if Pochettino is one of those underlying issues, I don't see it as likely that getting rid of him is going to solve all the others. I advocate neither his removal nor his retention as I am not informed or qualified enough to make that determination.

I've rambled long enough and, against my in-built desire, not signed off with a firm conclusion. That, to me, demonstrates how complicated the situation is.

See my rambling response above, as you say it's complicated and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. I kinda hoped the meal the players put on for all the staff was the turning point but something's not right and I don't think there's any easy fix.

That being said, results sometimes turn things around and a good performance could magically appear and we go on a massive run (this squad is certainly capable of that imo).

Maybe, Poch hasn't worked the players as hard this year due to previous seasons burnouts or maybe he's worked them too hard, I genuinely don't know, it's weird but out of my control but gives us all something to talk about I guess
 

PLTuck

Eternal Optimist
Aug 22, 2006
15,855
32,964
He doesn't help himself by implying that there are serious issues behind the scenes but he can't talk about them now because he's trying to get everyone to pull in the same direction, but that "one day, I'll speak about it".

If you are on the inside and you know you are one of the people he is referring to, its hardly great motivation is it?

As we saw when he first arrived, a few characters not on board can spread a malaise throughout the squad. As we are constantly told, top end football is very fine margins. A loss of 5% in performance makes a massive difference.

Even though I'm now #pochout, I've never wanted to be wrong so much. I still have this hope that he will turn it around, but the performance yesterday with the fresh lineup seems to show that he can't fix it. The difference in effort and application between the CL and league is stark.

However, if its a choice of keep poch or get Mourhino in, keep poch please.
 

SuperSpurs69

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
668
1,368
Thanks for the replies about an article I didn't write, okay.

Football fans are so reactionary and short-sighted, it's quite funny really.

Pochettino has just entered his 5th season, in the previous 4 we have got CL football whilst underspending all our rivals, we have had 2/3 title challenges (actual title challenges), we had a CL final appearance another final appearance and some semi appearances. We have outperformed on almost every metric given the money we have spent and seen an influx of youth from signings and internally and they have all developed under Poch's tutelage.

Levy carries the blame for the current malaise but in the same breath, we also have a £bn stadium heralded as one of the best in the world.

Yes, we are playing poorly, especially at home but that is kinda expected when you have players who don't want to be there and Levy has failed to let them go. It's also a brand new stadium and that takes time for players to adjust, it also doesn't help when the fans get on players backs.

You all want Poch to go, that's fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion but I will ask you all two questions...who the fuck do we get instead? And do you think Pochettino will fail or succeed at whatever club he takes over at?

Will probably get shot down here but in answer to your 2 questions:

1) short term - jose
2) depends where he goes and how you measure success? If we say trophies then if he were to go to somewhere like real/ajax/bayern for example then yes. Anywhere else probably not.

Please don't get me wrong, I am eternally grateful for what he has done. Him and Levy have taken us up to the next level, the final level I.e winning league titles and champions leagues is going to require a different approach.

Unfortunately it's plain to see that poch's tactical experience is lacking. When the high tempo pressing game doesn't work he seems to run out of ideas and can't adapt. Now... If he were to turn it around and we finish top 6 and he stays then its going to require Levy and Enic to dig deep and dig regularly.

I love the football we played when we were challenging Leicester and Chelsea, and would love for it to continue but it obviously takes a massive toll on the players. Therefore it would need a regular turnover of players to keep things fresh, and I just can't see levy doing that.

He's done absolutely amazing on a shoestring budget prior to this summer but now we've got to start thinking and operating like the big boys at the top table, that means constant player transfers, getting players in at the start of the window so they get a proper pre-season ( I have no idea why we don't get players on pre-contracts) and, dare I say it, signing players who have that winning mentality who have won titles elseware and that experience will cost money.

For what it's worth, I can see Liverpool being in the same position as us in within the next 2 seasons. The same can't be said for City as they have the resources to constantly rebuild with world class elite players and get world class, title winning managers in.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
When will someone get it that AG is the spin media doctor mouthpiece of the club FFS!
I don't believe that Ally himself is spin, he just reports what his links say and that is the spin. He's always wanted us to do well regardless of who is in command, but when you're close to the club like he is in such a public manner he has to toe the line.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,337
329,027
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.
 

McFlash

In the corner, eating crayons.
Oct 19, 2005
12,740
45,363
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.
If that's the case, I hope to fuck that Levy will not back it.
Without entering guessing games about the player you refer to, it can only be one of about three (maximum) and if that's the case, surely Levy won't gamble on Poch?
If Levy is properly aware of the situation, he's got to see that the problem will only reoccur unless Poch drastically changes his methods... And I just can't see that happening.
 

specspurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2011
391
403
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.
As you're ITK then the truth of the matter is that Daniel Levy really doesn't understand how the football part of the football business works.
Clearly its just the business part that he gets.
I guess though, in the end, even Levy will figure out Poch needs to go, lets just hope he figures this out sooner rather than later.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,957
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.

Well, if that’s the case I wouldn’t be surprised if it comes to a head before West Ham. If it’s Kane then Levy won’t lose him over Poch. No way and he’d be right to side with the player this time. 100%.
 

Yid121

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2008
3,463
3,139
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.
Kane wants poch out then
 

SuperSpurs69

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
668
1,368
Sounds like poch has lost a good chunk of the dressing room then. We've got a great core of 6/7 players to build a title winning team around and we must keep them. If verts, Toby, eriksen, Rose, aurier want to leave let a couple go in Jan, with the rest in the summer as long as they are replaced with upgrades.

If another manager comes in then let them build around kane, son, ndombele, sess, lo celso, and possibly dele, lamela and moura.
 

@WHL

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2016
197
364
It’s like being back in the 90s.
Young, carefree, spurs bottom half of the table, praying for a late klingsmann/linkier goal and thinking as long as we stay up.
 

staticsmile

Member
Aug 31, 2012
37
30
Kane wants poch out then

I can’t speak for any inside information, but he definitely played yesterday as if he couldn’t be bothered any longer. 90 minutes of going through the motions. Just a shadow of the ruthless, shoot on sight striker that showed up every weekend a couple years ago.

Everything at the club feels stale at the moment. No effort, no desire, no fun, and no idea how change it. No one involved seems to be enjoying the game any longer and that’s a huge problem.
 

Gareth88

Well-Known Member
Sep 19, 2017
4,592
6,727
I can tell you all now the rebuild(should Levy back it) will be far bigger than most of you think. Certain players might be saying the right things to the press, but it's not what they are telling their agents. Levy is now aware it's not just the so called "wantaway" players that will be pushing to leave if Poch stays. One player in particular is just not replaceable imo. Levy is aware of how it is, so let's see how this plays out.
Kane
 
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