Sporting Director

dontcallme

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Except that is literally the opposite of what we have been doing for the last few years. When we couldn't get Poch's no 1 targets we didn't get anyone and all the alternatives he rejected, which is how we ended up where we are today.
I just don't understand why we can't buy our number one target everytime. I mean every other club does don't they?
 

Havre

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Looking at the signings Lyon have made the last couple of years I'm not really that impressed.
Which DoF around consistently delivers better than everybody else?

Arnesen was supposedly a magician. Obviously he had a limited budget, but except for Carrick nothing of what he brought in was anything special (not that Robinson, Mendes, Davis, Edman, Dawson etc. were bad, but it is not like that window stands out as anything special).

Comolli was supposed to be a great scout. Now I believe he did OK even if he clearly wasn't able to build a balanced squad. In terms of individual players bringing in Berbatov and Modric was half decent.

Baldini was another great. Can't see I think we did better under him than anyone else.

Then you got message board favourites like Monchi. Is he consistently beating the market?

The key for me is to have a DoF and a manager that are on the same page - or if not "same page" so at least where there is some common understanding. Too much randomness in football transfers to just pick a sporting director based on past record and assume it will just extrapolate. Not saying there isn't difference in quality between them, but so so hard to tell who are the good and who are the less good ones.
 

brendanb50

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Which DoF around consistently delivers better than everybody else?

Arnesen was supposedly a magician. Obviously he had a limited budget, but except for Carrick nothing of what he brought in was anything special (not that Robinson, Mendes, Davis, Edman, Dawson etc. were bad, but it is not like that window stands out as anything special).

Comolli was supposed to be a great scout. Now I believe he did OK even if he clearly wasn't able to build a balanced squad. In terms of individual players bringing in Berbatov and Modric was half decent.

Baldini was another great. Can't see I think we did better under him than anyone else.

Then you got message board favourites like Monchi. Is he consistently beating the market?

The key for me is to have a DoF and a manager that are on the same page - or if not "same page" so at least where there is some common understanding. Too much randomness in football transfers to just pick a sporting director based on past record and assume it will just extrapolate. Not saying there isn't difference in quality between them, but so so hard to tell who are the good and who are the less good ones.
Very well put.

The objectives change from club to club as well. What may have suited recruitment for a smaller Lique 1 club could be very different to one in the Bundesliga or the PL. As you've said, the only real certainty you need to focus on is ensuring the manager and the director are both on the same page, have a decent working relationship and focus on the priorities of the playing squad (more manager perhaps) and the club overall (arguably more the director).
 

dontcallme

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Very well put.

The objectives change from club to club as well. What may have suited recruitment for a smaller Lique 1 club could be very different to one in the Bundesliga or the PL. As you've said, the only real certainty you need to focus on is ensuring the manager and the director are both on the same page, have a decent working relationship and focus on the priorities of the playing squad (more manager perhaps) and the club overall (arguably more the director).
Exactly.

We hired Arnesen and a huge thing was made about him bringing Brazilian Ronaldo to PSV. We had an ageing squad and didn't have huge funds. Within 3 windows his signings turned us from lower mid table to 5th best in the league. We made a profit on almost all his signings. I think a lot of the revision of his time with us doesn't take into account where we were as a club at the time.

I remember when he left he spoke of how big a job it was at us and I always wonder what would have happened if he'd stayed for the challenge.

But ultimately there is a difference in the quality of the leagues and as a result the buying strategy has to change. In France the league quality is lower and young players get a lot more game time. In the Prem no clubs play a high number of young players so the buying strategy has to change.

We often get excited about DOF's abroad with good youth buying records but it is harder to implement in the Prem.
 

brendanb50

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Exactly.

We hired Arnesen and a huge thing was made about him bringing Brazilian Ronaldo to PSV. We had an ageing squad and didn't have huge funds. Within 3 windows his signings turned us from lower mid table to 5th best in the league. We made a profit on almost all his signings. I think a lot of the revision of his time with us doesn't take into account where we were as a club at the time.

I remember when he left he spoke of how big a job it was at us and I always wonder what would have happened if he'd stayed for the challenge.

But ultimately there is a difference in the quality of the leagues and as a result the buying strategy has to change. In France the league quality is lower and young players get a lot more game time. In the Prem no clubs play a high number of young players so the buying strategy has to change.

We often get excited about DOF's abroad with good youth buying records but it is harder to implement in the Prem.
And to reiterate the point - Arnesen didn't really make as big an impact at Chelsea because the objectives were different.

I agree though - it all soured a bit in the end but we seemed to have a clear strategy (perhaps as a club or due to Arnesen himself) in our transfers during his initial spell. The young British players becoming the core of what we were out there buying brought us up a level with him and Jol running things.

Was gutted when it all fell apart but as you've said, the players bought during that spell went on to either serve us very well or make us money.
 

Havre

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Very well put.

The objectives change from club to club as well. What may have suited recruitment for a smaller Lique 1 club could be very different to one in the Bundesliga or the PL. As you've said, the only real certainty you need to focus on is ensuring the manager and the director are both on the same page, have a decent working relationship and focus on the priorities of the playing squad (more manager perhaps) and the club overall (arguably more the director).
Absolutely.

I am all for the "moneyball principle", but the higher up you get the more you should look for the extraordinary talent. Bringing in someone for 3m that is worth 6m gets you almost nowhere when you are among the top 10 richest clubs in the world, but it might be gold for a smaller team.

To be fair to Levy I do believe we changed gears a bit this summer. Not many brought in two top end players like N'Dombele and Lo Celso (in terms of spend - only Lo Celso being a top end player at the moment). Are we as a club ready to know which of these top end players are good enough? Seemingly not.

That is not only because of Levy, our head scout or a potential new DoF though. Not suggesting these things are extremely specialized, but scouts watching League Two games or Serie B games to find a gem based on those types of games might require a set of difference skills/"eyes" than understanding who is capable of playing CL QFs etc. from "day 1".

DoF or no DoF I am sure we will slowly, but steadily learn to be a team that actually has quite a lot of financial muscle. It is new to us. We can probably never deliver as per fan expectation, but we will become better at spending money correctly. Quite surprising though when you look at any club's expensive signings how often those are rather unsuccessful. Dembele at Barcelona, Pogba at Utd etc. "hit rate" is hardly any better than for that "2nd" tier where you find players like Lo Celso, Salah, Mane etc. (just examples - not suggesting you get better players for 40m than 100, but actually quite shocking how few of the really high end buys end up delivering anything close to what you would expect).
 
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Strikeb4ck

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Looking at the signings Lyon have made the last couple of years I'm not really that impressed.
Really? Those are pretty good signings IMO, especially considering they play in Ligue 1 and aren't really in a position to win it anymore with PSG there. There are some names there that were wanted by bigger clubs for sure.

It's also a 130m profit for them in the last 3 years in terms of net transfer spend, which is impressive.
 

WiganSpur

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This is the perfect time to get somebody in if we can. As they can spend their time putting together an extensive list of players to meet a variety of requirements. Let’s get the jump on other teams for once.
 

Tucker

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He was an amazing Striker on CM 97/98........if that helps.
Shiiiiiiiit I thought that name rang a bell. Finally my dream could be coming true, after all these years, Maurice at Spurs. What a time to be alive.
 

SpunkyBackpack

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This is the perfect time to get somebody in if we can. As they can spend their time putting together an extensive list of players to meet a variety of requirements. Let’s get the jump on other teams for once.
Football Manager 2020 is free at the moment, Levy or Jose could be doing that now.
 

Hakkz

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Really? Those are pretty good signings IMO, especially considering they play in Ligue 1 and aren't really in a position to win it anymore with PSG there. There are some names there that were wanted by bigger clubs for sure.

It's also a 130m profit for them in the last 3 years in terms of net transfer spend, which is impressive.
They can buy cheaper than many others, often taking punts on players that have not worked out at bigger clubs.

The profit they've made mostly come from academy/former youth players such as Lacazette, Tolisso and Fekir.
 

Chirpystheman

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They can buy cheaper than many others, often taking punts on players that have not worked out at bigger clubs.

The profit they've made mostly come from academy/former youth players such as Lacazette, Tolisso and Fekir.
You forget the 50+m we dropped their way
 

McArchibald

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...
We often get excited about DOF's abroad with good youth buying records but it is harder to implement in the Prem.
Not so sure about that... Look at how Marcel Brands is transforming Everton. Look at how Liverpool have build their squad over the past few seasons since Michael Edwards came in.
It can be done in the Prem but certain conditions will have to be met.
  • There has to be a long term plan and a vision in terms of playing style.
  • It has to encompass the youth setup and scouting apparatus.
  • It needs the DoF to have independence of the board
  • It needs large, sustained funding.
A DoF setup can work. The only reason why it wouldn't at Spurs is because we're stuck with Levy. He will never relinquish sufficient control to allow a DoF to function properly. Moreover, he wouldn't see the need. His sole ambition for the club is to generate enough money to sustain and expand his property empire.
On-field success costs money. That's why we'll never achieve it with Levy at the helm...
 

dontcallme

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Not so sure about that... Look at how Marcel Brands is transforming Everton. Look at how Liverpool have build their squad over the past few seasons since Michael Edwards came in.
It can be done in the Prem but certain conditions will have to be met.
  • There has to be a long term plan and a vision in terms of playing style.
  • It has to encompass the youth setup and scouting apparatus.
  • It needs the DoF to have independence of the board
  • It needs large, sustained funding.
A DoF setup can work. The only reason why it wouldn't at Spurs is because we're stuck with Levy. He will never relinquish sufficient control to allow a DoF to function properly. Moreover, he wouldn't see the need. His sole ambition for the club is to generate enough money to sustain and expand his property empire.
On-field success costs money. That's why we'll never achieve it with Levy at the helm...
You think Liverpool's success has been through their youth buying? Which of their current players helping them win the CL last season and dominate the PL this season were from youth signings?

I didn't say a single thing about not getting a DOF or buying young players but people getting excited about a DOF from France on the basis the teens they bought became big players should understand that developing players from a teen to top pro is hard to do in the Prem.
 

McArchibald

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You think Liverpool's success has been through their youth buying? Which of their current players helping them win the CL last season and dominate the PL this season were from youth signings?

I didn't say a single thing about not getting a DOF or buying young players but people getting excited about a DOF from France on the basis the teens they bought became big players should understand that developing players from a teen to top pro is hard to do in the Prem.
Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you, as my thoughts are more about a DoF-role in general. Because I think we really really need one.
But Liverpool do have some recently acquired youngsters pushing to get into the first team. Like Hoever, Van den Berg, Minamino. And Chelsea of course are now reaping the bounty of their sustained investment in youth.
You need an overall approach, working on the future as well as the present squad. And I can't discern any kind of long term plan or vision at all at our club... That's the worry.
 

dontcallme

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Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted you, as my thoughts are more about a DoF-role in general. Because I think we really really need one.
But Liverpool do have some recently acquired youngsters pushing to get into the first team. Like Hoever, Van den Berg, Minamino. And Chelsea of course are now reaping the bounty of their sustained investment in youth.
You need an overall approach, working on the future as well as the present squad. And I can't discern any kind of long term plan or vision at all at our club... That's the worry.
I agree with the DOF system. It seems to me that despite their varying success the quality of our purchases were at their best when we had Arnesen, Comolli and Baldini.

We can discuss many factors about their time at the club but we need quality players of all ages and we seem to do this better with a DOF.
 

allatsea

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Not so sure about that... Look at how Marcel Brands is transforming Everton. Look at how Liverpool have build their squad over the past few seasons since Michael Edwards came in.
It can be done in the Prem but certain conditions will have to be met.
  • There has to be a long term plan and a vision in terms of playing style.
  • It has to encompass the youth setup and scouting apparatus.
  • It needs the DoF to have independence of the board
  • It needs large, sustained funding.
A DoF setup can work. The only reason why it wouldn't at Spurs is because we're stuck with Levy. He will never relinquish sufficient control to allow a DoF to function properly. Moreover, he wouldn't see the need. His sole ambition for the club is to generate enough money to sustain and expand his property empire.
On-field success costs money. That's why we'll never achieve it with Levy at the helm...
Did Liverpool get "sustained funding" or did they sell over a couple of years their best players for vast sums and then invest it wisely ?
 
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