Spot The Difference

[kendoddsdadsdogsdead]

Personally I don't take much from pre-season, good or bad. Including individual player performances. I honestly have no preconceptions over potchitino. Lets wait and see. I do think people over stat the effect of managers. if Sherwood was so disastrous and potchitino has philosophy/structure/cohesion and those words actually mean anything out there on the pitch then he should comfortable add another 10 points in theory. Personally I still don't think our players are good enough to reach/get near top four and it will be interesting if the new manager gets the same stick.

 

[scat1620]

For me the two main aspects of difference between MP and AVB are (and both are clearly evident even in the handful of pre-season outings we've had under Pochettino):

1) Under Pochettino we are playing more directly and at a much higher tempo: passes are going forward rather than sideways, and the team is moving the ball (and themselves) much more quickly than they did under AVB.

2) Under Pochettino we're actually pressing high up the pitch in matches on grass, rather than just paying lip-service to the concept of a pressing game in PR interviews.

These traits are (IMO) very clear and visibly noticeable when comparing the two managers, and I'm genuinely a little surprised that the OP hasn't noticed the same. Onions.

 

[TaoistMonkey]

We were shit defensive and offensively under AVB.

Our defensive was epic before injuries set in.

I've posted this before.

 

[fUnKy]

The interesting thing for me was Holtby... always dropping into the space left by the full backs either side. Not sure if it was just cover but he had an awful lot of possession in those areas. Agree with the fundamentals. Defensively very similar i just hope that we move the ball quicker and with more ambition in the final third. Saints also had some games last year where they looked toothless and unable to penetrate.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Our defensive was epic before injuries set in.

I've posted this before.

Myth. Our defence was breached multiple times in pretty much all the games we played under AVB and it was down to poor defending.

 

[Good Doctor M]

Our defensive was epic before injuries set in.

I've posted this before.

I know, some people have short memories. Our defense under AVB initially was the tightest in the league. It was always with AVB about lack of goals.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

There wasn't much wrong with AVB's theory that a bit more pressing and a lot more change-of-pace wouldn't have solved. To my eyes, what went wrong with the first half of last season was that the players had been drilled into a hesitant, safety-first style of attack, which slowed down the closer we came to the penalty box. What it needed was for there to be an instant change-of-pace the moment a gap appeared, but the players had clearly been coached to preserve possession as the top priority.

The direct result of that was that we created a lot of half-chances and no penetration. The direct result of that was a ridiculous number of 25m pot-shots, each following 90 seconds or more of patient possession outside the penalty box, followed by a loss of patience. The direct result of that was a team that became progressively more frustrated and nervous as each goalless first half proceeded and never, ever scored an early goal.

I would submit that the indirect result of all that was that the defence, after conceding the first goal when we should really already have been in the lead, would get unnerved and, when playing against high quality opposition, would promptly concede two or three more soft goals.

This explains the consistent theme of last season, which was reliable gathering of points, usually by small margins of victory, against all but the best opposition, contrasted with hammerings at the hands of every team with the flair to exploit our hesitancy and defensive nerves.

If Pochettino's use of the same formation includes pressing and, perhaps even more important, acceleration of movement and passing as we get closer to the goal, then we should see a different, more ruthless and effective attack.

But it is still an approach that will concede goals, as is suggested by the absence of clean sheets during pre-season. If you play a high defensive line, you will concede goals and blaming individual defenders will not help to explain or cure this (I expect that I will come back to this point multiple times as the season progresses). It was conspicuous that Southampton had the best defensive record in the league over the first couple of months of last season - and we had the second best. Gradually, other teams found out how to play against their system (and ours) and they conceded more goals, especially late in games.

I'm hoping that the difference for us this season is that we will have those of our players who can combine to score 2-3 goals a game being turned loose to make real chances, right from the start of matches, such that we will not always be guarding a 0-0 or 1-0 scoreline with increasing nervousness in the second half.

 

[Good Doctor M]

There wasn't much wrong with AVB's theory that a bit more pressing and a lot more change-of-pace wouldn't have solved. To my eyes, what went wrong with the first half of last season was that the players had been drilled into a hesitant, safety-first style of attack, which slowed down the closer we came to the penalty box. What it needed was for there to be an instant change-of-pace the moment a gap appeared, but the players had clearly been coached to preserve possession as the top priority.

The direct result of that was that we created a lot of half-chances and no penetration. The direct result of that was a ridiculous number of 25m pot-shots, each following 90 seconds or more of patient possession outside the penalty box, followed by a loss of patience. The direct result of that was a team that became progressively more frustrated and nervous as each goalless first half proceeded and never, ever scored an early goal.

I would submit that the indirect result of all that was that the defence, after conceding the first goal when we should really already have been in the lead, would get unnerved and, when playing against high quality opposition, would promptly concede two or three more soft goals.

This explains the consistent theme of last season, which was reliable gathering of points, usually by small margins of victory, against all but the best opposition, contrasted with hammerings at the hands of by every team with the flair to exploit our hesitancy and defensive nerves.

If Pochettino's use of the same formation includes pressing and, perhaps even more important, acceleration of movement and passing as we get closer to the goal, then we should see a different, more ruthless and effective attack.

But it is still an approach that will concede goals, as is suggested by the absence of clean sheets during pre-season. If you play a high defensive line, you will concede goals and blaming individual defenders will not help to explain or cure this (I expect that I will come back to this point multiple times as the season progresses). It was concpicuous that Southampton had the best defensive record in the league over the first couple of months of last season - and we had the second best. Gradually, other teams found out how to play against their system (and ours) and they conceded more goals, especially late in games.

I'm hoping that the difference for us this season is that we will have those of our players who can combine to score 2-3 goals a game being turned loose to make real chances, right from the start of matches, such that we will not always be guarding a 0-0 or 1-0 scoreline with increasing nervousness in the second half.

Well played sir.

 

[formlesswater]

The attacking philosophies seem much different. Under AVB, we passed between the CB's until the other team got bored, and hoped that Bale could produce a miraculous long shot goal. Pochettino seems to want to move the ball forward quickly. We saw more through-balls against Schalke then in any game I can remember under AVB.

 

[luka loopy]

Second half had much of the problems we saw last season imo. But the guy has only been in the job 5 minutes so he needs time to work on things. We looked all over the place at the back once Kaboul went off, lets hope he stays fit.

In the second half though the game seemed to fizzle out, I think the number of substitutions took its tole. Unless we have a complete disaster with injuries I doubt there will be a time in the season where we have a Fryers - Dier CB partnership. Both far to inexperienced IMO.

 

[dontcallme]

Both Poch and AVB like a high energy pressing game. But there's so much more to management than simply trying to implement a playing style.

AVB handled big ego players like Ade and BAE very badly which was detrimental to the team. He was also unpopular at Chelsea among the players. Read the reports from Southampton players on how happy they were under Poch.

Also watching Southampton a fair bit last season showed me a team with players showing very intelligent movement. Rodriguez, Lambert and Lallana were creating a lot of chances between themselves.

Compare that to how rigid we were under AVB. Every player had a very defined role which stifled them and we just weren't creating enough good chances.

 

[StartingPrice]

There wasn't much wrong with AVB's theory that a bit more pressing and a lot more change-of-pace wouldn't have solved. To my eyes, what went wrong with the first half of last season was that the players had been drilled into a hesitant, safety-first style of attack, which slowed down the closer we came to the penalty box. What it needed was for there to be an instant change-of-pace the moment a gap appeared, but the players had clearly been coached to preserve possession as the top priority.

The direct result of that was that we created a lot of half-chances and no penetration. The direct result of that was a ridiculous number of 25m pot-shots, each following 90 seconds or more of patient possession outside the penalty box, followed by a loss of patience. The direct result of that was a team that became progressively more frustrated and nervous as each goalless first half proceeded and never, ever scored an early goal.

I would submit that the indirect result of all that was that the defence, after conceding the first goal when we should really already have been in the lead, would get unnerved and, when playing against high quality opposition, would promptly concede two or three more soft goals.

This explains the consistent theme of last season, which was reliable gathering of points, usually by small margins of victory, against all but the best opposition, contrasted with hammerings at the hands of every team with the flair to exploit our hesitancy and defensive nerves.

If Pochettino's use of the same formation includes pressing and, perhaps even more important, acceleration of movement and passing as we get closer to the goal, then we should see a different, more ruthless and effective attack.

But it is still an approach that will concede goals, as is suggested by the absence of clean sheets during pre-season. If you play a high defensive line, you will concede goals and blaming individual defenders will not help to explain or cure this (I expect that I will come back to this point multiple times as the season progresses). It was conspicuous that Southampton had the best defensive record in the league over the first couple of months of last season - and we had the second best. Gradually, other teams found out how to play against their system (and ours) and they conceded more goals, especially late in games.

I'm hoping that the difference for us this season is that we will have those of our players who can combine to score 2-3 goals a game being turned loose to make real chances, right from the start of matches, such that we will not always be guarding a 0-0 or 1-0 scoreline with increasing nervousness in the second half.

Yup.

The biggest difference between AVB and Poch, that I can see, is that AVB prioritised possession and patient build-up at the expense of tempo, whereas Poch prioritises quick transition from defence/midfield into attack, with a natural by-product being high-tempo.

Yesterday, the game petered out a little. Factors to consider:

For quick transition, one of the most important positions for Poch is the defensive midfielder. Rather than being a player who can relentlessly hunt the ball down and then look for a creative to pass to, Poch likes a player who can gain possession and then immediately pick a good forward pass, giving that quick transition from defence into attack. He has relied heavily on Capoue in pre-season. What was noticeable from the first pre-season game was how quickly Capoue was snapping passes forward rather than looking to find a safe root to an unmarked player in defence/midfield. Here;'s my comment from that match: Seattle Sounders Vs Tottenham: Match Thread. I again noticed this in the Toronto match, again, here's my comment: Spurs vs Toronto FC. Capoue wasn't available yesterday, for whatever reason, and there didn't seem to be anyone quite taking this role - although Bentaleb looked to hit a lot of early passes.

We were still playing, on paper, a lot of what would be our second team in the first half, and third team in the second half.

Schalke are a CL club, yes, both sides had a lot of first teamers absent, but the important thing is that they play a similar style of play. It was interesting to see how Poch's tactics would work against similar tactics - he will be facing different tactical responses with us than he did with the Saints, for the simple reason that we have better players/a better squad and teams will be more wary against us.

We may not have pressed quite as intensely as in previous pre-season games, which the OP seems to have missed,. But, as others have said, we still got the ball into the box much faster, created more chances, scored two goals (so there's a difference right there) and could have had more but for the usual officiating insistence that receiving the ball behind the last defender is the same as being offside (except for when it's Theo Walnut and he is, clearly, about 2 yards off, that is). We defended pretty well, although, as with the offence, seemed to switch off a little late on - allowing them to snatch a consolation than frankly never looked likely (I would be expecting Poch to beat this out of them literally over the course of the season). And after which we stepped it up and could have extended our lead.

Also, not for the first time, Townsend got to the line, looked up and picked out a forward rushing team-mate, rather than getting towards the edge of the area and blasting the ball in the general direction of the goal.

For such early days, under these circumstances, I think that is evidence enough of improvement. I could be wrong on this, but really hope I'm not...obviously

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Yesterday was the first real look I have had of Spurs this season, and of course the first chance to see what the new gaffer is doing as opposed to the previous regimes.

MP has promised flair and everything else that we want to hear and see, but I didn't see much different to what I saw under AVB for instance?

I jut wondered if that was a fair reflection of last night's game and performance, or have the other games shown something different?

People talk about MP bringing high energy, pressing and a high line. But were they not attributes AVB promised?

The similarities of both managers seem quite apparent to me, but what am I missing?

They both use the same formation (both seemingly out of stubbornness too) - with both using inverted wingers and lone striker, as well as the already aforementioned aspects of the game. They have both identified similar weaknesses early on, Dawson, full back and central midfield. They both have similar demeanour in press conferences, although MP is certainly less aggressive and argumentative - but that maybe more to do with the agenda the media had with AVB, and the fact that only recently has MP started speaking in English.

Maybe its just me being my usual pessimistic self, but I feel as though I did exactly two years ago - unsure of the manger, the clubs philosophy and (most worryingly) struggling to identify with our team.

I wish MP and the team my obvious best, but what can/does he bring to the table which AVB didn't?

I think it's a bold post to write, critical thinking or devil's advocate towards Pochettino is not yet widely accepted. Which I understand, he does deserve more time. That being said, I though I spotted some improvements which I enjoyed, and some similarities which I didn't enjoy.

 

[SFCS]

Schalke were set up to be countered with balls in behind the defence and players charging forward. The only comparison I saw to the side under Avb was that they wore the same badge. This was much quicker all over the pitch in every sense.

I'm not drawing many conclusions from yesterday though. The boring truth is that we won't know how we are going to play until the season starts as few Pl teams will leave themselves as open as Schalke did. But I do hope we continue to see us moving the ball quickly as we have in preseason.

 

[CheeseGromit]

It all in the application
There is no magic formula but it depends on how it is implemented

PS
I think AVB was still hoping for his miracle workers to appear; Hulk Moutinho probably derailed his approach

 

[CowInAComa]

Poch presses far higher up the pitch than AvBs Spurs. Which means turnover is generally in a far more dangerous advanced position and conducive to creating chances as there is not the time to get behind the ball to recover.

 

[shelfboy68]

There wasn't much wrong with AVB's theory that a bit more pressing and a lot more change-of-pace wouldn't have solved. To my eyes, what went wrong with the first half of last season was that the players had been drilled into a hesitant, safety-first style of attack, which slowed down the closer we came to the penalty box. What it needed was for there to be an instant change-of-pace the moment a gap appeared, but the players had clearly been coached to preserve possession as the top priority.

The direct result of that was that we created a lot of half-chances and no penetration. The direct result of that was a ridiculous number of 25m pot-shots, each following 90 seconds or more of patient possession outside the penalty box, followed by a loss of patience. The direct result of that was a team that became progressively more frustrated and nervous as each goalless first half proceeded and never, ever scored an early goal.

I would submit that the indirect result of all that was that the defence, after conceding the first goal when we should really already have been in the lead, would get unnerved and, when playing against high quality opposition, would promptly concede two or three more soft goals.

This explains the consistent theme of last season, which was reliable gathering of points, usually by small margins of victory, against all but the best opposition, contrasted with hammerings at the hands of every team with the flair to exploit our hesitancy and defensive nerves.

If Pochettino's use of the same formation includes pressing and, perhaps even more important, acceleration of movement and passing as we get closer to the goal, then we should see a different, more ruthless and effective attack.

But it is still an approach that will concede goals, as is suggested by the absence of clean sheets during pre-season. If you play a high defensive line, you will concede goals and blaming individual defenders will not help to explain or cure this (I expect that I will come back to this point multiple times as the season progresses). It was conspicuous that Southampton had the best defensive record in the league over the first couple of months of last season - and we had the second best. Gradually, other teams found out how to play against their system (and ours) and they conceded more goals, especially late in games.

I'm hoping that the difference for us this season is that we will have those of our players who can combine to score 2-3 goals a game being turned loose to make real chances, right from the start of matches, such that we will not always be guarding a 0-0 or 1-0 scoreline with increasing nervousness in the second half.

Agree when you play a high line you maybe slightly more at risk of conceding but We also stand more chance of scoring more by forcing the opposition back deeper towards their goal.
Liverpool did this last year which almost gave them the title and they only conceded one or two less than We did but i Guess if We believe in the system and get the players in then we can keep more Clean sheets.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Myth. Our defence was breached multiple times in pretty much all the games we played under AVB and it was down to poor defending.

That is just plain wrong.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

That is just plain wrong.

I'll give you an example. When we beat Cardiff (away) 0-1, Frazier Campbell got behind our defence multiple times and Lloris saved us (as usual) and IIRC, they could have had a penalty...

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Myth. Our defence was breached multiple times in pretty much all the games we played under AVB and it was down to poor defending.

Why do pople write this kind of nonsense without bothering to check it? All it does is to encourage internet myth-making and factoids.

Here's what really happened, although I have restricted my analysis to last season under AVB - I can add the previous season if ayone wants me to bother.

All matches
Played: 26
Conceded 0: 14 (it broke our record for clean sheets - we had 14 in the first 21 matches of the season)
Conceded 1: 7
Conceded 2: 2
Conceded 3: 1
Conceded 4: 0
Conceded 5: 1
Conceded 6: 1

That's 0.96 goals conceded per match. Not exactly 'multiple times in pretty much all the games we played'.

League matches

Played: 16
Conceded 0: 8
Conceded 1: 5
Conceded 2: 0
Conceded 3: 1
Conceded 4: 0
Conceded 5: 1
Conceded 6: 1

That's 1.19 goals conceded per league match.

By mid-November, we had the 2nd (or perhaps 3rd) best defensive record in the league (after Southampton). Then it all went to hell and we conceded 16 goals in 7 matches (11 of them in 2 and 5 in the other 5), following which AVB was out.

Our 'defence' includes Lloris. If 'our defence is breached', that means that we have conceded a goal.