The beginning of the end...

[PLTuck]

If I was an employee of a manager who constantly spoke of being brave and showing commitment and togetherness, and then started talking about possibly leaving for pastures new in pressers, I'd start to wonder if he was full of shit. Once that seed is sown it can be really corrosive as then confirmation biases take hold and other things the manager says are questioned.

I'm speaking a little from experience (not in the football world) of managers saying one thing and doing another. Previously highly thought of managers are now not as highly thought of and less intently listened to. Slowly but surely team morale sinks and no doubt productivity is reduced and in football this only ever seems to end one way.

Goddamn I hope he turns this around. I couldn't bear to see him at Utd or Chelsea, or any PL club.

 

[thebenjamin]

Can't believe how many people are willing to tank Poch. The mind absolutely boggles. Got us into the CL 4 years running with a net spend of £10M and a wage bill less than Everton's. He's the most over-performing manager in world football. We're on a poor run, yes, but everyone knows there are clear reasons for that. And some of those are Poch's fault, but others are out of his control. But let's not return to the Tottenham basket case who sacked their manager every time performance levels drop a little, because we're so entitled that we feel we deserve to be seeing better football. Our standards are high because Pochettino put them there.

And talk of Mourinho is just absolute stupidity. The club has spent a long time trying to create an identity - that we are a club that leans heavily on its academy and develops young players. An identity that sees us play high energy, creative attacking football (yes it has lapsed recently but our identity is there). Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of everything that Tottenham is. Defensive football, a chequebook manager who relies completely on signing established, ready made players in their late 20s or early 30s for premium transfer fees, who are half decent for 2 / 3 years before their value plummets to zero. Every interview and press conference is Mourinho throwing his players under the bus because they didn't do what he told them to. He creates a war behind the scenes within 5 minutes everywhere he goes because that is how he operates - he is a conflict based manager. I literally couldn't think of a worse fit in world football than Tottenham Hotspur and Jose Mourinho.

 

[Coco-1101]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...problems-lie-might-mauricio-pochettino-solve/

Media starting to pick up on it.

Good. It will increase pressure on poch and he might leave and that will makes you and other s happy.

 

[mpickard2087]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided with real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

But you need to look further forward still, people talk about the defensive record and immediately focus on the midfield and defence and assume it's what they're doing. As I have said over numerous threads now, when you want to hold a high line and (presumably, still) press teams then the most important part of the defence is at the front.

What we see now is teams in those initial phases of play either getting an easy pass out to the open man, or players just advancing forward with the ball, and the cm2 and back four just having a huge workload, having to go and engage other people's men and then constantly scrambling about. It is much easier for a centre mid, a full back, even a centre back to step out and break up play when the press is organised and intense, pressuring and funnelling the opposition into our traps.

We just aren't compact any more and have huge gaps to exploit, our defensive structure has just disintegrated over the last two or three seasons. Instead of being one unit, the norm now seems to be six, maybe seven doing any real defending whilst we have three or four stood in advanced positions, either putting in a token trot or even just standing about, waiting for us to get the ball back.

The attack is the first line of the defence, if that isn't fixed and we don't get it organised and have individuals willing to run and put the work in this will continue. We've seen people like Dier and Wanyama, experienced defensive shields, made to look like pub players in this set up at the back end of the year. Totally exposed and unable to cope.

 

[Wadec]

If I was an employee of a manager who constantly spoke of being brave and showing commitment and togetherness, and then started talking about possibly leaving for pastures new in pressers, I'd start to wonder if he was full of shit. Once that seed is sown it can be really corrosive as then confirmation biases take hold and other things the manager says are questioned.

I'm speaking a little from experience (not in the football world) of managers saying one thing and doing another. Previously highly thought of managers are now not as highly thought of and less intently listened to. Slowly but surely team morale sinks and no doubt productivity is reduced and in football this only ever seems to end one way.

Goddamn I hope he turns this around. I couldn't bear to see him at Utd or Chelsea, or any PL club.

The last line is so accurate. This situation will drive Poch so much I hope it is us reaping the rewards not another team.

 

[BENNO]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...problems-lie-might-mauricio-pochettino-solve/

Media starting to pick up on it.

Definitely worth a read.

 

[Japhet]

On a side note, I still think people are reading a bit too much into the Newcastle game. We've struggled for years against teams who put 10 men behind the ball - even in the 'glory days' of 16/17 - and without Ndombele, Eriksen, Alli or Lo Celso we were always going to have a tough time. If we played that game 10 times over we'd probably still win it 5 or 6 times - granted that's not good enough but it wouldn't have caused such an uproar on here. Even teams like Liverpool and City, with all their attacking riches, often find it tricky to break down 8/9 men camping on the edge of their box - that's just football.

I'm not excusing our shitty movement and attacking play - that's something we really need to fix - I'm just trying to put a bit of perspective on things. We've been putting in turgid performances like that on-and-off for years, the difference is our questionable midfield and lack of creative players on the pitch meant our turgid percentage football went against us rather than for us.

IMO, our fullbacks are key to us tackling this problem. It seems that they are either banned from putting an early cross into the box or unable to do it. Always trying to get near the byeline is so utterly predictable and allows teams to organise defensively. DeBruyne's early cross for Sterling's goal was devastating but the last time I remember anything similar from us was Aurier's ball to Vertonghen in the CL. If we could fire some early balls into the danger area when everybody is on the move I doubt there's a better striker to be getting on the end of it than Harry Kane.

 

[Gareth88]

Do we need a new captain? Someone in the centre of the pitch who can drive us forward and shell out some much needed words of encouragement or a dig out when players aren't pulling their weight. Maybe Jan? he always seems like he would rinse you if you fucked about, is that what is missing?

 

[Deleted member 29446]

Definitely worth a read.

Paywall.

Anyone?

 

[Styopa]

For the past two seasons I put a lot of our "problems" (in the relative sense) down to playing at Wembley.

Unfortunately the stadium move from old White Hart Lane to Wembley came at a bad time from a footballing perspective. We were really building up a head of steam in the last season at the Lane and were formidable at home. Undoubtedly some of this was due it to being the final season in our old home but it was also the culmination of the two or three years work that had gone into that team. We were young, energetic, full of confidence and pressed high.

When we moved to Wembley our style of play altered. We became slower, less dynamic. Partly for tactical and strategic reasons, partly because of personnel and partly because of a general lackluster and uncertainty around the club. Consecutive transfer windows without new signings contributed to this, as did the new stadium delays.

However I think most of us were ready for that. Any team would have found playing away from home for two seasons a major challenge and anyway Wembley is something of an atmosphere vacuum. I think most people associated with the club too a pragmatic view of the situation and were and happy to make "par" of CL qualification even if the football wasn't always pretty. The implication being things will really come good when we move to our new stadium.

But things haven't come good since we moved back home. Or at least they haven't improved like we all hoped they would. There are no signs we are in process of turning the place into a fortress - we have already lost there twice and rang in some fairly insipid performances even when we have won. Maybe this is forgivable when you consider that historically teams moving stadiums have taken some time to find their feet. Yet the dial was turned up to 11 when we moved back to the Tottenham. After all the frustrations of playing at Wembley returning home was the dawning of a new era - maybe we were all blinded by that and underestimated the scale of transition involved. And perhaps we have underestimated the the sheer amount of energy it took from Pochettino to navigate us through the "Wembley Years".

That said I strongly believe Pochettino can turn this around. If we can become a major force at home again then I think the rest will follow. Somehow we need to a find a way of playing with speed and swagger again. In my lay person's view that means bringing back the high press, using the full backs high up the pitch to supply the width, playing with one dedicated DM and utilising Kane to the best of his abilities which means not playing e.g. Lucas Moura alongside him who take up his space. With the team playing fast and exciting football creating good chances the atmosphere in the stadium will change. That energy will transmit to the players and hopefully the team can start playing with some confidence again.

 

[Flashspur]

The thing is, Poch has flirted publicly with leaving on several occasions, including the whole “I’ll go if we win the champions league” weirdness. Which frankly is a weird thing to say, don’t get the excuses made for him at the time - no one else would have done that. And so then Eriksen does the whole “need a new challenge” before the final, again didn’t see anyone at Liverpool doing that.

For me now Poch doesn’t really have much high ground with the players as they all know he’ll be off soon. It felt like a big “all for one” situation previously but now everyone’s individual agendas are spilling out so I can see why it’s unsettled. But Poch has played a pretty major part in that.

That shit about leaving if he won. Seriously that was abject and cringeworthy but more tellingingly, saying that on the eve of the clubs biggest game not only sent the wrong message to the fans but to the players as well. It was wierd shit of the highest order. The ‘I am staying, no I am going’ BS has been going on for a while. It is totally unprofessional.

He needs to pull his head in and sort matters out on the field and keep his trap shut in the pressers. He needs to find his mojo again.

As for CE, the club has had two years to sort it out. He wanted equal pay with Kane. We said no. We had the opportunity and blew it. I think CE is now past his use by date. The quicker he goes the better. No player is bigger then the club.

 

[Wadec]

Do we need a new captain? Someone in the centre of the pitch who can drive us forward and shell out some much needed words of encouragement or a dig out when players aren't pulling their weight. Maybe Jan? he always seems like he would rinse you if you fucked about, is that what is missing?

I agree with you but zero chance Poch will strip Lloris. Had an opportunity last year and didnt. Think Lloris is firmly behind Poch so cannot see it happening.

 

[Stamford]

If I was an employee of a manager who constantly spoke of being brave and showing commitment and togetherness, and then started talking about possibly leaving for pastures new in pressers, I'd start to wonder if he was full of shit.

Huge problem and why his comments pre the final angered me so much

 

[Shadydan]

Do we need a new captain? Someone in the centre of the pitch who can drive us forward and shell out some much needed words of encouragement or a dig out when players aren't pulling their weight. Maybe Jan? he always seems like he would rinse you if you fucked about, is that what is missing?

An armband isn't going to magically make our players more vocal, there's nothing stopping players from taking responsibility now.

 

[Kingellesar]

Do we need a new captain? Someone in the centre of the pitch who can drive us forward and shell out some much needed words of encouragement or a dig out when players aren't pulling their weight. Maybe Jan? he always seems like he would rinse you if you fucked about, is that what is missing?

I agree we need a leader but I can't see any in this squad, Jan maybe, Kane has tried in the past but I feel it needs to be a CM/CB, like Kompany for City, even when he wasn't playing you knew he was the leader of that squad.

 

[Scott Spur]

Our play has been stagnant for a while, but in my opinion our biggest issue in the 2nd half of last season, when our terrible form began, was our central midfield. We didn't replace Dembele and lost his unique ability to retain possession and beat men in the middle of the park - a position in which he was literally one of the best in the world. We also lost Dier and, for all his failings, we've really missed the positional cover he provided us. We didn't always play great with those 2 in the middle, but they were tall, tough bastards who could defend corners, win headers and cover well. The two of them were a core part of both our defensive solidity and, in Dembele, our ability to break the lines.

In replacing them with Winks and Sissoko we lost that positional discipline and defensive solidity. Winks is a tidy little player but he doesn't really provide anything going forward or defensively - he just keeps the ball ticking over. Sissoko is a great athlete and his runs forward were vital last season but for a club with our aspirations he's simply not good enough at CM. He's a pedestrian passer, loses the ball multiple times a game, and doesn't have a real defensive instinct. If he's not making runs forward, he's not doing much.

In previous seasons we often looked shit against defensive teams, even going back 3/4 years, but the difference was we had just enough of an edge to beat them. Our defence was both rock solid and provided with real protection, and this gave us a base to build from. Now that we've lost that base, the pendulum has swung and games we were winning by small margins we are losing by small margins.

This is where I'm hopeful. Ndombele is a huuuge improvement in this area of the pitch and it's no surprise that he was a the catalyst for our comeback against Villa. He can keep the ball, has vision and makes things happen. If we're to turn this run of bad form around he will be the lynchpin. We might also have to consider bringing Dier back into the team as, for all of Winks' endeavour, I don't think he provides us enough defensive protection and our bad run of form coincides with us not playing a proper CDM. Sissoko should always be a squad player IMO and should not be a first teamer.

Our forward play is a whole other story and also a huge concern as we look limp, uninspired and poorly coached at the moment. However, I think this central midfield issue is THE fundamental reason for our downturn in form over the past year, along with Poch's subsequent obsession with the diamond which has only exacerbated our problems.

Totally agree. I am also convinced that if we gain some stability at the back (by getting a decent midfield pairing) then we’ll naturally invigorate the front line somewhat.

 

[Mr Pink]

Yay - we've got our Tottenham back.

We want our Poch back... Is more appropriate I think lol

 

[Matthew]

Why didn't you said anything at the beginning of last season when we utterly failed in TW. Why didn't you questioned winning mentality of the owners. And now started after just one defeat. Hope you will enjoy free flowing football under mourinho when your wish come true.

erik? you good?

 

[Talkingbouttanguy]

I think Poch feels like he isn't able to gain control and manage the squad in it's curent make up. Players not leaving is a much bigger issue than the players he wanted coming in.

My biggest concern is if Eriksen stays, at this point in time we're a much better team with him in but Poch has no chance of building his second team if he stays and doesn't fully commit.

The derby has come at an awful time but I'm so glad it's away rather than at home, mainly for the fact it'll be our away support the team and Poch hear rather than the mess that is our current home support.

 

[Gareth88]

An armband isn't going to magically make our players more vocal, there's nothing stopping players from taking responsibility now.

I'm not suggesting magically everything will be okay by changing captain. I'm making a suggestion/posing a rationale question. Rather than shipping Poch out the door as the only conclusion or solution to our current slump.