The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE GOODBYEEE EDITION 3rd September 2014

[Hoopspur]

I'm confused, we're buying an emu?

No he's going to Hull.......

 

[Booney]

Agree with all the messages of thanks and support for another belting thread but I'd like to extend the well-wishing out to a certain Steve Bruce. He seems to single-handedly kick-start our transfer spending and ITK each window. Even if we don't have a transfer budget of our own, it's nice to have some of Hull's to play with.

We've got until January to see if we can interest him in an afro-sporting midget left back with a questionable work ethic.

 

[Norvern Munkey]

Why? Rod and Emu would be like Ardiles and Villa all over again.

Don't think Rod's too hot in any aerial contests is he?

 

[CowInAComa]

I agree with plenty of that but just want to take issue with the "better investment" or "last window of Redknapp" and "Moutinho" stuff.

I agree that those investments and at other times, investment in the right player could have made a footballing difference.

The problem is, that will always be a truism in football. Not just for us but for almost every team, every year. At some point you have to draw a line, and wherever you draw that line you will always be that one signing away from the quantum improvement.

I would have loved Moutinho and think he would have made a huge difference. But I understand that no single purchase is worth compromising financial security. And even if we'd signed him and he improved us our rivals with more money would just go out and buy more weapons. And we are never going to win an arms race.

But what a bizarre time and place to draw the line in both instances (last window of arry/post CL qualification window).

I have no disagreement with us pulling out of the Moutinho, MS deals etc when we were being held over a barrel, but to not pull the trigger in that window after CL qualification and Arrys final jan window was just plain silly and I think a little shortsighted.

 

[Mr Pink]

I agree with plenty of that but just want to take issue with the "better investment" or "last window of Redknapp" and "Moutinho" stuff.

I agree that those investments and at other times, investment in the right player could have made a footballing difference.

The problem is, that will always be a truism in football. Not just for us but for almost every team, every year. At some point you have to draw a line, and wherever you draw that line you will always be that one signing away from the quantum improvement.

I would have loved Moutinho and think he would have made a huge difference. But I understand that no single purchase is worth compromising financial security. And even if we'd signed him and he improved us our rivals with more money would just go out and buy more weapons. And we are never going to win an arms race.

Again its back to judgement isn't it? So whilst at the very end of the window the numbers for Moutinho were looking too high but why leave your most crucial signing to the last minute when you've already committed so much from the transfer pot?

Why blow money on people like Dempsey and Siggurdsson - perhaps those funds could of made the Moutinho deal more viable?

Or perhaps money ball decisions, taken by Committee, have priority over the manager getting his key man in place to ensure the playing system is viable etc.

Our squad management has seemed strange at times. Having a deep squad is obviously important if you're taking all competitions seriously etc but we really do have a habit of buying a certain standard of player and stock piling them. Moreover we're buying players and not knowing were to play them in terms of what systems suit them etc - Holtby, Paulinho etc

Committee led always seems to be the way and that's what's restricting the managers we appoint IMO. Doesn't help that we're changing managers frequently of course.

We need a playing style/identity so that everyone is familiar with how we play and what are needs generally are for it.

I understand various people have to be involved in overseeing a transfer and contemplating the merits of various deals but surely the manager has to be the loudest voice in terms of suitability providing said player can be done within reasonable financial constraints.

Too many cooks for me has always felt like the real problem.

 

[Jospur]

Again its back to judgement isn't it? So whilst at the very end of the window the numbers for Moutinho were looking too high but why leave your most crucial signing to the last minute when you've already committed so much from the transfer pot?

Why blow money on people like Dempsey and Siggurdsson - perhaps those funds could of made the Moutinho deal more viable?

Or perhaps money ball decisions, taken by Committee, have priority over the manager getting his key man in place to ensure the playing system is viable etc.

Our squad management has seemed strange at times. Having a deep squad is obviously important if you're taking all competitions seriously etc but we really do have a habit of buying a certain standard of player and stock piling them. Moreover we're buying players and not knowing were to play them in terms of what systems suit them etc - Holtby, Paulinho etc

Committee led always seems to be the way and that's what's restricting the managers we appoint IMO. Doesn't help that we're changing managers frequently of course.

We need a playing style/identity so that everyone is familiar with how we play and what are needs generally are for it.

I understand various people have to be involved in overseeing a transfer and contemplating the merits of various deals but surely the manager has to be the loudest voice in terms of suitability providing said player can be done within reasonable financial constraints.

Too many cooks for me has always felt like the real problem.

The one transfer that I found hard to understand was bringing in Darren Bent. If I remember rightly we were already stacked with forwards (Berbatov, Defoe and Keane) and the real need was for a creative midfielder. So why bring in another forward when we needed someone to set up the forwards? Opportunity lost.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Again its back to judgement isn't it? So whilst at the very end of the window the numbers for Moutinho were looking too high but why leave your most crucial signing to the last minute when you've already committed so much from the transfer pot?

Why blow money on people like Dempsey and Siggurdsson - perhaps those funds could of made the Moutinho deal more viable?

Or perhaps money ball decisions, taken by Committee, have priority over the manager getting his key man in place to ensure the playing system is viable etc.

Our squad management has seemed strange at times. Having a deep squad is obviously important if you're taking all competitions seriously etc but we really do have a habit of buying a certain standard of player and stock piling them. Moreover we're buying players and not knowing were to play them in terms of what systems suit them etc - Holtby, Paulinho etc

Committee led always seems to be the way and that's what's restricting the managers we appoint IMO. Doesn't help that we're changing managers frequently of course.

We need a playing style/identity so that everyone is familiar with how we play and what are needs generally are for it.

I understand various people have to be involved in overseeing a transfer and contemplating the merits of various deals but surely the manager has to be the loudest voice in terms of suitability providing said player can be done within reasonable financial constraints.

Too many cooks for me has always felt like the real problem.

I know that there are times when we all question the logic of a signing both on it's own merit and within the dynamics of the group strategy, god knows I have.

But are we really unique in that ? Do we really do that bad a job in this respect ? All things considered.

I've probably watched more top quality players in the last 8 years at Spurs than I did in the previous 28.

If you really think about it, and analyse it, take into account that we are operating on small profit margins, and pretty small net spends often, do we really do that bad in the market ? Or is our performance in the transfer market a major factor in helping us sustain our relative success over the last 6 years ?

As far as the committee goes, I have no problem with it whatsoever. There are literally hundreds of examples of managers proving equally inept at making choices as committees. Redknapp wanted Cole, we ended up with VDV. He also wanted some other very dubious players by all accounts. Rodgers wanted Sigurdsson and Dempsey he failed and eventually their committee got Coutinho and Sturridge. AVB not only wanted Moutinho, he also, by all accounts wanted Hulk. Sherwood's list was even scarier by all accounts.

I'm sure there are times when a manager's choice would have been better than the committee's. But the problem is, a manager has very little financial stake in the investments a club makes on his behalf. Other maybe getting the sack, but even then his contract will often be bought out, and he will shuffle on to another employer, a club will be saddled with that financial obligation (fees and wages) for years to come.

Managers are rarely good scouts, they don't always put in the hours, do a psychological evaluation, ponder how the personality of the player will fit the other personalities in the team.

I genuinely believe that unless a manager has an impressive proven track record at identifying and procuring viable targets he shouldn't be any more than one voice amongst the committee.

The flip side of that is, he should not automatically be held entirely accountable for certain aspects of performance and results.

 

[Mr Pink]

I know that there are times when we all question the logic of a signing both on it's own merit and within the dynamics of the group strategy, god knows I have.

But are we really unique in that ? Do we really do that bad a job in this respect ? All things considered.

I've probably watched more top quality players in the last 8 years at Spurs than I did in the previous 28.

If you really think about it, and analyse it, take into account that we are operating on small profit margins, and pretty small net spends often, do we really do that bad in the market ? Or is our performance in the transfer market a major factor in helping us sustain our relative success over the last 6 years ?

As far as the committee goes, I have no problem with it whatsoever. There are literally hundreds of examples of managers proving equally inept at making choices as committees. Redknapp wanted Cole, we ended up with VDV. He also wanted some other very dubious players by all accounts. Rodgers wanted Sigurdsson and Dempsey he failed and eventually their committee got Coutinho and Sturridge. AVB not only wanted Moutinho, he also, by all accounts wanted Hulk. Sherwood's list was even scarier by all accounts.

I'm sure there are times when a manager's choice would have been better than the committee's. But the problem is, a manager has very little financial stake in the investments a club makes on his behalf. Other maybe getting the sack, but even then his contract will often be bought out, and he will shuffle on to another employer, a club will be saddled with that financial obligation (fees and wages) for years to come.

Managers are rarely good scouts, they don't always put in the hours, do a psychological evaluation, ponder how the personality of the player will fit the other personalities in the team.

I genuinely believe that unless a manager has an impressive proven track record at identifying and procuring viable targets he shouldn't be any more than one voice amongst the committee.

The flip side of that is, he should not automatically be held entirely accountable for certain aspects of performance and results.

Loads of good points there BC.

I agree with plenty of that, we get more right than wrong that's for sure. I probably came across a bit critical but I didn't mean to be. I just think there are times when we could be a bit cuter.

I know we arn't privy to the intricacies in terms of decision making but every now and then, with hindsight of course, it does feel we've missed out on a real opportunity.

 

[Hoopspur]

I know that there are times when we all question the logic of a signing both on it's own merit and within the dynamics of the group strategy, god knows I have.

But are we really unique in that ? Do we really do that bad a job in this respect ? All things considered.

I've probably watched more top quality players in the last 8 years at Spurs than I did in the previous 28.

If you really think about it, and analyse it, take into account that we are operating on small profit margins, and pretty small net spends often, do we really do that bad in the market ? Or is our performance in the transfer market a major factor in helping us sustain our relative success over the last 6 years ?

As far as the committee goes, I have no problem with it whatsoever. There are literally hundreds of examples of managers proving equally inept at making choices as committees. Redknapp wanted Cole, we ended up with VDV. He also wanted some other very dubious players by all accounts. Rodgers wanted Sigurdsson and Dempsey he failed and eventually their committee got Coutinho and Sturridge. AVB not only wanted Moutinho, he also, by all accounts wanted Hulk. Sherwood's list was even scarier by all accounts.

I'm sure there are times when a manager's choice would have been better than the committee's. But the problem is, a manager has very little financial stake in the investments a club makes on his behalf. Other maybe getting the sack, but even then his contract will often be bought out, and he will shuffle on to another employer, a club will be saddled with that financial obligation (fees and wages) for years to come.

Managers are rarely good scouts, they don't always put in the hours, do a psychological evaluation, ponder how the personality of the player will fit the other personalities in the team.

I genuinely believe that unless a manager has an impressive proven track record at identifying and procuring viable targets he shouldn't be any more than one voice amongst the committee.

The flip side of that is, he should not automatically be held entirely accountable for certain aspects of performance and results.

^ This is an excellent post.

I think that the 'risk' of a signing is assessed as you have eluded to. Both player wise (mentioned) and certainly also financially. This has to be done now by the committee due to the size of fees involved.

I'm sure the view is taken that if we buy a certain amount of players within a certain price bracket then we really cannot lose that much money on them if they do not work out. We should even sell them for a profit - maybe the Sigurdsson or Sandro effect, and to a certain extent these are bought actually to attain this. A business decision as opposed to a football one. Could be that Stombouli is this or maybe he is seen as an integral part of the team? I'm sure we have learnt greatly from things like Bentley for example, although there is a potential to do so again with Soldado or even Lamela. Having said this I'm sure Levy has structured these deals so as not to put too much risk on the club.

You are correct in saying the quality of players has improved and I see this as an upward curve and that we are buying better quality players than those that have gone before. I hope this is a planned increase in quality and something that we'll continue to do.

Long may it continue and I'm hoping that the general quality carries increasing.

 

[jezz]

But what a bizarre time and place to draw the line in both instances (last window of arry/post CL qualification window).

I have no disagreement with us pulling out of the Moutinho, MS deals etc when we were being held over a barrel, but to not pull the trigger in that window after CL qualification and Arrys final jan window was just plain silly and I think a little shortsighted.

I think Harry was short sighted, he had the chance to get Suarez but said no.
Manager's make whoppers too.

 

[yanno]

As far as the committee goes, I have no problem with it whatsoever. There are literally hundreds of examples of managers proving equally inept at making choices as committees. Redknapp wanted Cole, we ended up with VDV. He also wanted some other very dubious players by all accounts. Rodgers wanted Sigurdsson and Dempsey he failed and eventually their committee got Coutinho and Sturridge. AVB not only wanted Moutinho, he also, by all accounts wanted Hulk. Sherwood's list was even scarier by all accounts.

I'm sure there are times when a manager's choice would have been better than the committee's. But the problem is, a manager has very little financial stake in the investments a club makes on his behalf. Other maybe getting the sack, but even then his contract will often be bought out, and he will shuffle on to another employer, a club will be saddled with that financial obligation (fees and wages) for years to come.

Completely agree. But there's an exception.

Managers are rarely good scouts, they don't always put in the hours, do a psychological evaluation, ponder how the personality of the player will fit the other personalities in the team.

The exception is a player that a manager has managed, watched in training every day of the week, seen his attitude on and off the pitch, knows what a player does well and what they're poor at, and knows whether he'll stick to team orders on the pitch.

And then if the manager says player x that I used to coach at my previous club is better than player y in our current squad for the way I want to play, the question becomes price.

Poch knows the strengths and weaknesses of Schneiderlin, Lovren, Lallana, Shaw, Jay Rodriguez and co. He can increasingly judge them against the strengths and weaknesses of the players he's now coaching and seeing in training & matches at Spurs.

Clearly, Poch sees qualities in Schneiderlin that he doesn't see in Holtby and Sandro. I'm disappointed to see the Beast go, but Poch would have had the inside track on his medical records, as well as style of play.

If the price for Schneiderlin was £27 million, then the club and the Committee may be right to say too much.

As presumably they did with Hulk - a decision I totally agree with.

It may have been posted elsewhere, but here's a Grauniad piece on how much some clubs - eg manure - overpaid for players in the summer window.

 

[dovahkiin]

sort of itk from MillerForEngland on coys:
A little bit of my first and probably only ITK
I just spoke to someone associated with our academy who was really impressed with our U18 Champions Cup success saying it was an excellent performance against a Benfica side not used to losing
I said I was impressed by Chris Ramseys work with the academy and he agreed saying its a shame he's no longer with is
Tim - style was a Sgt Major very authoritative with our squad
Also a big difference between Poch and AVB. After training AVB would leave the players and go straight to his office, Poch spends a lot more time and is closer to the players and they really love working with him
That's all folks

 

[Bulletspur]

The one transfer that I found hard to understand was bringing in Darren Bent. If I remember rightly we were already stacked with forwards (Berbatov, Defoe and Keane) and the real need was for a creative midfielder. So why bring in another forward when we needed someone to set up the forwards? Opportunity lost.

If I remember correctly, Bent was Levy purchase not sanctioned by the Manager, Jol I believe

 

[Japhet]

I don't think Levy has given successive managers long enough to gain his trust which has hurt our transfer dealings. Long serving managers like Wenger and Ferguson are given pretty much free reign to spot their own talent (and we all know some of the blunders they have made) but Levy can't let go of the wheel. I hope he learns and lets Poch do his thing. IMO he could build something good for us.

 

[VegasII]

With all the goat this summer, we never ended up with Goetze.

 

[Grey Fox]

Been away from the site since just before the TW deadline, because of being on the road a lot with work and virus problems with my laptop, so couldn't join in the last day fun or comment since.

Apparently the deal for MS could have been done the week before the deadline if Townsend had gone the other way, but he refused to go so it didn't happen. It is expected we will go back in for him and Rodriguez in January if we can off load a couple more. We are staying in touch with H Moreno too and any offer for him would depend on fitness and form of Kaboul. The club are pretty happy with the business done and it is a very happy place at the moment despite the defeat last weekend.

Just to comment on Bus Conducter's comments above, I agree with most of what he says except for the comment about better quality than years before. I think we are buying too many good but not great players and prior to this window I was being told we were going for quality rather than quantity, but for some reason that never panned out that way and we ended up with too many players of similar style and quality. If you look at our squad there are not too many that would be wanted by our nearest rivals in the top 6 or so having said that I do realise that not every successful team has 11 world class players in it. I think we just need to give Poch a bit of time to see what he can do with what we got, but he is not a magician and certain players seem to dim to grasp what they have to do in the set up, but I guess time will tell.

 

[Syn_13]

Been away from the site since just before the TW deadline, because of being on the road a lot with work and virus problems with my laptop, so couldn't join in the last day fun or comment since.

Apparently the deal for MS could have been done the week before the deadline if Townsend had gone the other way, but he refused to go so it didn't happen. It is expected we will go back in for him and Rodriguez in January if we can off load a couple more. We are staying in touch with H Moreno too and any offer for him would depend on fitness and form of Kaboul. The club are pretty happy with the business done and it is a very happy place at the moment despite the defeat last weekend.

Just to comment on Bus Conducter's comments above, I agree with most of what he says except for the comment about better quality than years before. I think we are buying too many good but not great players and prior to this window I was being told we were going for quality rather than quantity, but for some reason that never panned out that way and we ended up with too many players of similar style and quality. If you look at our squad there are not too many that would be wanted by our nearest rivals in the top 6 or so having said that I do realise that not every successful team has 11 world class players in it. I think we just need to give Poch a bit of time to see what he can do with what we got, but he is not a magician and certain players seem to dim to grasp what they have to do in the set up, but I guess time will tell.

I like what you're saying here GF, but I just hope that Levy and co. also believe in giving Poch time. Regardless of who wanted the players, I'm guessing Levy got a bit fed up with AVB because he couldn't seem to get the best out of the players we brought in. Poch is working with pretty much a blank slate here, and I hope that he is given time to work something out. Sometimes you need to take a step back to see the big picture in order to go forward.

 

[DaSpurs]

I like what you're saying here GF, but I just hope that Levy and co. also believe in giving Poch time. Regardless of who wanted the players, I'm guessing Levy got a bit fed up with AVB because he couldn't seem to get the best out of the players we brought in. Poch is working with pretty much a blank slate here, and I hope that he is given time to work something out. Sometimes you need to take a step back to see the big picture in order to go forward.

Truth, and it's my impression with the signings, along with Trix' comments on them, that they do seem to be giving him a vote of confidence. No panic buys, with clear intent towards planned acquisitions in the future.

I know we didn't sign outright quality, but it's still my view we addressed the pressing needs. I'm extremely comforted by the fact Poch seems to have instantly realized our problems in central midfield, and looks keen on addressing them. This fall should be very interesting, as the man integrates his system and we see the players fleshed out in cups and league play to find those most suitable to his plans. I hope he is aggressive towards this pursuit, as we can then use the January window to possibly move on those who he doesn't feel suit his plans and bring in another couple acquisitions if need be.

 

[Syn_13]

Truth, and it's my impression with the signings, along with Trix' comments on them, that they do seem to be giving him a vote of confidence. No panic buys, with clear intent towards planned acquisitions in the future.

I know we didn't sign outright quality, but it's still my view we addressed the pressing needs. I'm extremely comforted by the fact Poch seems to have instantly realized our problems in central midfield, and looks keen on addressing them. This fall should be very interesting, as the man integrates his system and we see the players fleshed out in cups and league play to find those most suitable to his plans. I hope he is aggressive towards this pursuit, as we can then use the January window to possibly move on those who he doesn't feel suit his plans and bring in another couple acquisitions if need be.

January will be very interesting. The advantage of having a window in Jan is that you can use it to try to rectify things that aren't working out (and to help with injuries), but I tend to find that we rarely take advantage of this. Can't remember many times when we signed someone in Jan who went on to make a difference for the rest of that season. I think Palacios was one. When he first came in it was exactly what we needed and he did the job. Also, I think we signed Krancjar in a Jan window as well, when Modric was out, and he covered really well.

 

[DaSpurs]

January will be very interesting. The advantage of having a window in Jan is that you can use it to try to rectify things that aren't working out (and to help with injuries), but I tend to find that we rarely take advantage of this. Can't remember many times when we signed someone in Jan who went on to make a difference for the rest of that season. I think Palacios was one. When he first came in it was exactly what we needed and he did the job. Also, I think we signed Krancjar in a Jan window as well, when Modric was out, and he covered really well.

Completely agree. Far too many instances of having glaring needs at such points and not addressing them (left winger last winter). Very much hoping we'll use this upcoming one, as despite the fact we addressed our most pressing needs this summer with the new system, we still have a hole or two with potential for more.