The high press...

[sloth]

An excellent article looking at the effectiveness of the high-press, which teams use it, which coaches use it, and which leagues. There's also a focus on Pochettino which makes it relevant for us:

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/07/defensive-metrics-measuring-the-intensity-of-a-high-press/

 

[sloth]

Here's a follow up article: http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnatio...stats-mauricio-pochettino-statistical-profile

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I love statsbomb. Their pieces on Soldado are seriously eye opening.

 

[sloth]

I love statsbomb. Their pieces on Soldado are seriously eye opening.

I haven't read it. Care to post?

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I haven't read it. Care to post?

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/03/the-spanish-inquisition-roberto-soldado/

 

[Bulletspur]

I do not know for others but I do find such long articles like the opening very tedious to read as I think they can be summarized better. I am sure the contents have merit but I started to lose interest by the second paragraph, where it hadn't even start to address what the topic was about. The author should go straight to the subject instead of making unnecessary points

 

[sloth]

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/03/the-spanish-inquisition-roberto-soldado/

From my perspective that's a brilliant article, mainly because you almost never hear analysts talking about the role random fortune plays in performances, and for me it's a massive factor, in fact my biggest bug-bear with football analysis, political, social, whatever analysis, is that people always have to find some kind of human agency as the sole or most important reason why.

 

[sloth]

I do not know for others but I do find such long articles like the opening very tedious to read as I think they can be summarized better. I am sure the contents have merit but I started to lose interest by the second paragraph, where it hadn't even start to address what the topic was about.

It's quite technical, and that doesn't float everyone's boat, but stick with it and it turns out interesting.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

From my perspective that's a brilliant article, mainly because you almost never hear analysts talking about the role random fortune plays in performances, and for me it's a massive factor, in fact my biggest bug-bear with football analysis, political, social, whatever analysis, is that people always have to find some kind of human agency as the sole or most important reason why.

I'm not sure, I kind of view random fortune/luck as something that we just haven't figured out how to quantify yet/don't have the necessary variables

 

[wiggo24]

Really good piece.

Pressing high seems like a no-brainer to me. The higher you win the ball, the higher the chance you score quickly.

If you have players that are fit enough, defending from the front can be seriously effective imo.

 

[Good Doctor M]

Really good piece.

Pressing high seems like a no-brainer to me. The higher you win the ball, the higher the chance you score quickly.

If you have players that are fit enough, defending from the front can be seriously effective imo.

That's why I worry Sandro and certainly Dembele aren't going to be quite right for Poch. I'm not sure if players that pick up so many niggles will see much playing time. To play a high line like that you really need all your players to be 100% fit.

 

[Shea]

http://www.statsbomb.com/2014/03/the-spanish-inquisition-roberto-soldado/

I'd like to see this article some how try to qualify these stats by looking at the type of chances he was presented with as opposed to just a chance in a certain area

Seeing as Soldado plays off the shoulder of the defender and creates space quickly looking for a ball played at the right time in the right area surely not all chances are created equally for a fox in the box type of striker

It's all well and good saying that he had the same amount of chances in the same areas last year in a Spurs shirt as he did the season before in a Valencia shirt and the only difference was his own ability to get them on target and indeed score them but I don't believe this tells the whole story

From my own eyes I saw many of his chances being presented to him by players who were unable to anticipate his movement and simply reacting to it and or blindly playing a ball into the area in the hope he would make something of it

This would mean he would have to take his in the box chances while challenging or under pressure from the defender or while stretching for the ball or with less time and space to get his shot away

If while playing for Valencia his team mates were more in tune with his movement and able to anticipate where he would be when they play the pass rather than waiting for his run or just hitting a hopeful ball in then his movement will have left his defender behind and created space for him to take the chance unchallenged and with the ball well within his centre of gravity so the chance will be a far better chance because he is unchallenged and not stretching for the ball in spite of the fact that statistically it would simply count as a chance in a certain zone of the pitch he was unable to get on target

Watching his goals for Valencia he frequently scored by making a short burst run to peel off his marker and create space because his team mate knew where he would be and played it where he wanted it so his shot was unopposed, not being closed down and he did not have to engage in a physical battle with his defender.

That means two chances from penalty spot area - one taken after a ball played into the right place at the right time just as he made his movement vs one that was lobbed in by a winger with his head down for him to challenge with his defender to win are far from equal chances even though they would be statistically the same on that chart that the article uses to analyse his respective seasons at Valencia and Spurs

I don't think he suddenly became a poor finisher or forgot how to get the ball on target - though I am sure there were issues with confidence that did play a role in this and it was evident during the Sherwood reign when he actually was getting better chances and striking without composure - I think its more to do with the fact that at Spurs even though he was getting chances in a similar place with similar frequency the quality of chances he was presented with were inferior to that he was given at Valencia due to our lack of anticipation of his movement

Ade profited from the type of chances Soldado had been getting because he had the physical presence to make something of a hopeful ball into the box while Soldado struggled to do so and required a more intelligent pass from a player capable of recognising the move he's about to make and playing the ball as he loses his defender for that split second to make the space

I'm still hopefully that playing with the likes of Erkisen and Lamela more frequently will result in them all being on the same wavelength and his in the box movement leading to him profiting with a greater quality of chances as these intelligent players can read his run and play the right ball at the right time with the right weight leading to his resurrection as a top goal scorer.

 

[Giovanni]

I cant WAIT to see the high press once perfected at WHL against the big boys, it will have the lane rocking!!!!! Seriously though if we can be clinical with chances this season then we are going to score bucket loads with lamela, eriksen and lennon buzzing around behind soldado!!!!! Lennon to FINALLY step up this year is my bet, hes going to finally show us the real azza thay he should have become 3 years ago!!!!!

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I'd like to see this article some how try to qualify these stats by looking at the type of chances he was presented with as opposed to just a chance in a certain area

Seeing as Soldado plays off the shoulder of the defender and creates space quickly looking for a ball played at the right time in the right area surely not all chances are created equally for a fox in the box type of striker

It's all well and good saying that he had the same amount of chances in the same areas last year in a Spurs shirt as he did the season before in a Valencia shirt and the only difference was his own ability to get them on target and indeed score them but I don't believe this tells the whole story

From my own eyes I saw many of his chances being presented to him by players who were unable to anticipate his movement and simply reacting to it and or blindly playing a ball into the area in the hope he would make something of it

This would mean he would have to take his in the box chances while challenging or under pressure from the defender or while stretching for the ball or with less time and space to get his shot away

If while playing for Valencia his team mates were more in tune with his movement and able to anticipate where he would be when they play the pass rather than waiting for his run or just hitting a hopeful ball in then his movement will have left his defender behind and created space for him to take the chance unchallenged and with the ball well within his centre of gravity so the chance will be a far better chance because he is unchallenged and not stretching for the ball in spite of the fact that statistically it would simply count as a chance in a certain zone of the pitch he was unable to get on target

Watching his goals for Valencia he frequently scored by making a short burst run to peel off his marker and create space because his team mate knew where he would be and played it where he wanted it so his shot was unopposed, not being closed down and he did not have to engage in a physical battle with his defender.

That means two chances from penalty spot area - one taken after a ball played into the right place at the right time just as he made his movement vs one that was lobbed in by a winger with his head down for him to challenge with his defender to win are far from equal chances even though they would be statistically the same on that chart that the article uses to analyse his respective seasons at Valencia and Spurs

I don't think he suddenly became a poor finisher or forgot how to get the ball on target - though I am sure there were issues with confidence that did play a role in this and it was evident during the Sherwood reign when he actually was getting better chances and striking without composure - I think its more to do with the fact that at Spurs even though he was getting chances in a similar place with similar frequency the quality of chances he was presented with were inferior to that he was given at Valencia due to our lack of anticipation of his movement

Ade profited from the type of chances Soldado had been getting because he had the physical presence to make something of a hopeful ball into the box while Soldado struggled to do so and required a more intelligent pass from a player capable of recognising the move he's about to make and playing the ball as he loses his defender for that split second to make the space

I'm still hopefully that playing with the likes of Erkisen and Lamela more frequently will result in them all being on the same wavelength and his in the box movement leading to him profiting with a greater quality of chances as these intelligent players can read his run and play the right ball at the right time with the right weight leading to his resurrection as a top goal scorer.

It is also entirely possible that defenders mark you more tightly in the Premier League, and are also allowed to get away with a lot more here than defenders are allowed to get away with in La Liga. I think this is most evident at set pieces where the 'jostling' in the box in the EPL is far more physical than in Spain.

 

[TheGreenLily]

As far as I am concerned, the press can suck my cock...

 

[Shea]

It is also entirely possible that defenders mark you more tightly in the Premier League, and are also allowed to get away with a lot more here than defenders are allowed to get away with in La Liga. I think this is most evident at set pieces where the 'jostling' in the box in the EPL is far more physical than in Spain.

Yea this is true

I did see numerous occasions when Soldado would make a well timed run and not be played in though - he loses his man a lot in the box but does not get the ball played at the right time and the right weight

I remember seeing Valencia play Swansea in the Europa (ok I know Swansea aren't exactly the most physical of defensive EPL teams) but the difference between Valencia and us in our respective attacking plays was the way they got numbers in the box and knew each others runs (I could instantly see how/why Soldado thrived with them)

We were never set up to play to his strengths under AVB and he was very isolated while crosses and long shots were coming in and he was restricted to chances where he would have to fight physically with bodystrength to win with battle to even get a chance

This is why Ade was so effective once he came in - he had that physical presence that could make the most of these poor crosses and hopefully balls into the box

Later into Sherwood's reign we did start finding Soldado with space in the box at which point for one reason or another his finishing was poor and he was resorting to hitting it as hard as he could with no placement JD style - which worried me as to his character being too old and experienced to lack confidence in his own ability and suffer such poor form

I do agree that the defending in EPL is somewhat different and more physical but you only have to look at the top players in teams like Arsenal to see how they make space in the box and their players make passes to make the most of this space to see that it's possible to be a striker of this style and still be successful in our league - you don't have to be a battering ram to score goals.

He can make space for himself in the box, and he has done - if this can be found by his team mates then he can still be successful with us. The problem is with Adebayor we have a striker who doesn't need everything laid on a plate for him in that way and we may decide it isn't worth shaping our whole attack to play to Soldado's strengths because with Ade and indeed Kane or a new signing we wouldn't have to do that

 

[Blake Griffin]

i like the way dortmund press. they wait until the ball reaches a certain area and then all swarm at them, rather than doing it right from the front. i think that way they conserve their energy better whereas others start to die out around the 60 minute mark.

 

[Good Doctor M]

It is also entirely possible that defenders mark you more tightly in the Premier League, and are also allowed to get away with a lot more here than defenders are allowed to get away with in La Liga. I think this is most evident at set pieces where the 'jostling' in the box in the EPL is far more physical than in Spain.

I think this is a myth to be honest, or at least, the premier league's physicality is grossly overestimated. Soldado regularly got goals against all the teams in Spain and I just don't buy the "foreign leagues are full of lightweights and pushovers".

It was clear to me last year that the only player regularly in the team with Soldado who was even close to his level of intelligence was Erikson.

His service last year was pitiful. With Lamela and Erikson in a three with Soldado, I can't see him being anywhere close to as poorly serviced. Even in the US tour you could see that they were making space and looking to play neat balls to feet close to goal. With a combination of poor crossing, a shoot on sight policy from some players and a sterile, laboured build up play, last year, Soldado when I watched him was a frustrated player above all else; he lost a lot of confidence and missed a good few sitters, but the rest of the team and the system we were playing were huge contributing factors.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I think this is a myth to be honest, or at least, the premier league's physicality is grossly overestimated. Soldado regularly got goals against all the teams in Spain and I just don't buy the "foreign leagues are full of lightweights and pushovers".

It was clear to me last year that the only player regularly in the team with Soldado who was even close to his level of intelligence was Erikson.

His service last year was pitiful. With Lamela and Erikson in a three with Soldado, I can't see him being anywhere close to as poorly serviced. Even in the US tour you could see that they were making space and looking to play neat balls to feet close to goal. With a combination of poor crossing, a shoot on sight policy from some players and a sterile, laboured build up play, last year, Soldado when I watched him was a frustrated player above all else; he lost a lot of confidence and missed a good few sitters, but the rest of the team and the system we were playing were huge contributing factors.

I'm not saying EPL defences are better, nor am I saying it is more physical. What I am saying is the defenders in the EPL are given far more leeway than their Spanish counterparts. Set pieces in the UK have practically descended into a rugby scrum at times where if you don't have a handful of your opponents shirt then you're doing it wrong.

One thing that I will say is that there is certainly a correlation between being a top striker in the Premier League and having strength. Now this is not to say that I think that Emile Heskey is the best striker in the world (which is a weird charge that is often levelled at any Soldado detractors), but Suarez and Aguero are really hard to get off the ball. Mayhaps it is not any increased level of 'physicality' in the premier league, maybe it is more of a case of pressure from defenders and having them breathe down your neck.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

I think this is a myth to be honest, or at least, the premier league's physicality is grossly overestimated. Soldado regularly got goals against all the teams in Spain and I just don't buy the "foreign leagues are full of lightweights and pushovers".

It was clear to me last year that the only player regularly in the team with Soldado who was even close to his level of intelligence was Erikson.

His service last year was pitiful. With Lamela and Erikson in a three with Soldado, I can't see him being anywhere close to as poorly serviced. Even in the US tour you could see that they were making space and looking to play neat balls to feet close to goal. With a combination of poor crossing, a shoot on sight policy from some players and a sterile, laboured build up play, last year, Soldado when I watched him was a frustrated player above all else; he lost a lot of confidence and missed a good few sitters, but the rest of the team and the system we were playing were huge contributing factors.

Interstingly, on the subject of physicality:

In La Liga, they dribble more and with more success in the Premier League.
Higher number of challenges in the Premier League, and this is an important factor when we consider the disciplinary data.

Discipline:

La LigaDisciplinePremier League
19Fouls per game17
5Number of Fouls between cards7


More tackles in the Premier League, fewer fouls given and fewer cards shown in relation to the number of fouls given, clearly indicates that the Premier League is more physical than La Liga.

Therefore we consider the data we directly collected to be more reliable, and thus we believe that in the Premier League they run more and more quickly than in La Liga.

Our Data from other Seasons
11072Total Distance covered11174
489High Intensity530

In another study, our conclusion is corroborated and confirms that in the Premier League, they run more, more in high intensity (blue) and more in sprints (see graphic).

Source: http://www.rafabenitez.com/web/index.php?act=mostrarBlog&id_entrada=16&idioma=in

Edit: So actually I do not agree that the EPL being more physical is a "myth" at all. It can't be if you are being challenged 3x as much both on the floor and in the air, being pressured more, and being required to run more. In actual fact I would say that it is pretty solid evidence that the Premier League is certainly more physical than La Liga