The VAR Thread

nailsy

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Are we going a bit full cycle then with the handball rule again.

We had a spell a while back when kicking the ball at a players arm (usually out from body but not always) in the box seemed to get pens awarded.

Then we had to see a clear movement towards the ball with the arm to imply deliberate action, that seemed to stop a lot of the shots/crosses being awarded as pens because more often than not, the arms are out from the body because you're moving/tacking.

Now we seem to be back to the first scenario. I presume it's with the notion that there's movement towards the ball but for me that's not always the case. It's flawed in my view but hey as long as they make it clear - not just for plebs like be but for the officiating clown, that would be great.[/QUOTE]

The not going to happen. The new rules are even worse if you ask me. Do you know what a natural silhouette is? I don't.

Watch how many pens are given next season and watch the rule get rewritten again, the current ruling isn't sustainable and will cause a lot of outrage for unfair handballs - gonna see a lot of penalties next season.
I'm going to have a fantasy football team full of penalty takers next season.
 

brendanb50

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Had to google "natural silhouette football" to give me a chance - but what i read still seems unclear. Best i could guess at the mo is if you're not stood like this (arms at least) then it's outside of the natural silhouette:

 

nailsy

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Had to google "natural silhouette football" to give me a chance - but what i read still seems unclear. Best i could guess at the mo is if you're not stood like this (arms at least) then it's outside of the natural silhouette:

Yeah, it seems to suggest that you need your arms by your sides, which seems totally unnatural when you're running or trying to block a shot of cross.
 

brendanb50

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Yeah, it seems to suggest that you need your arms by your sides, which seems totally unnatural when you're running or trying to block a shot of cross.
Rose yesterday for me was a great example - he's sliding to block a shot, how do you do that with your arms next to or behind your body?

Rules is rules i guess but it's not right. I thought they had it for a while but we're going backwards on this one.
 

Hakkz

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Think it might have been a good idea to just implement an offside review system first and build from there.
Goal line tech and then offside reviews. I would also like to see more dives/obvious malicious tackles be punished post game if the refs miss it during the game.
 

Yid-ol

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Watch how many pens are given next season and watch the rule get rewritten again, the current ruling isn't sustainable and will cause a lot of outrage for unfair handballs - gonna see a lot of penalties next season.
My fantasy football team next year will be as many penalty takers as possible!
 

coopsieyid

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My fantasy football team next year will be as many penalty takers as possible!

Your 'keeper could score you points by saving one/some of their penalties, but also cost you points by saving one/some of their penalties.

 

nailsy

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Rose yesterday for me was a great example - he's sliding to block a shot, how do you do that with your arms next to or behind your body?

Rules is rules i guess but it's not right. I thought they had it for a while but we're going backwards on this one.
The referee yesterday seemed to watch the replay about six or seven times. I'm sure he was thinking 'I know the rules say it's a penalty, but.....'

Agree with you about the rules going backwards as well. If they want to make all handballs a foul why not give an indirect free kick in the box for unintentional handball?
 

JCRD

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The referee yesterday seemed to watch the replay about six or seven times. I'm sure he was thinking 'I know the rules say it's a penalty, but.....'

Agree with you about the rules going backwards as well. If they want to make all handballs a foul why not give an indirect free kick in the box for unintentional handball?

Why did he give Rose the yellow card? It was clearly unintentional even if the stupid rules suggest a penalty regardless of intention
 

paddieu

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I really rated this posting by Mr Drink, but think it will get lost in the Manshitty thread, and deserves to be an ongoing theme, especially as our esteemed manager has spoken out against its current usage.

So let me first move the excellent post to here and then comment on it.

Sorry I cant move all the other responses, as to do that would be to exceed my role as a simple punter here...


I don't think we have a VAR dedicated thread so I will put it here.

I had been slowly coming around to VAR but this game has turned me against it. I thought VAR would be a tool for reducing corruption in football. But now I am not so sure.

The game can still be corrupted. The new targets are not the refs, but the people sitting in the VAR room. The new targets for hints and pressure on what would be the "best" outcome will be them. The implicit, or even explicit in some countries, pressure on what would be best for your career, for the nation, for your bank balance...we know where your kids go to school kind of thing will be the VAR room people.

They now have the power to decisively swing games. IF the VAR people felt any kind of pressure, real or imagined, to help Spurs there is no way they would have flagged up the Rose "handball"...it would have been ignored and no-one would have questioned it. If they felt any pressure to favour Spurs they would have flagged up the Fernandinho elbow to the head...and once played multiple times in slow motion he would have got a red card.

The wholly subjective behaviour of the VAR team favoured City (whistle...shocked face), and there is no come back on them for doing so.

A skilled, and corrupted, VAR team can scan every small detail of a game looking for a moment to intervene if they think it will help to get the "right" result.

I hope there are enough decent people out there who would stand up to pressure. But do we trust UEFA, who constantly change TV payments and competition rules purely to benefit a small handful of clubs...would they care if VAR accidentally helps those same clubs? What about FIFA and Infantino's huge bromance love-in with any and every scumbag dictator out there...do you trust him to stop it being an avenue for "inappropriate" pressure?

I am not sure I am.


Broadly speaking I go along with this.

I've watched some of the Spanish games that have used it, and what struck me was exactly the above - the selective use in favour of the usual big teams. Checking goals is one thing, but failure to check possible penalties for the smaller teams is quite another.

So it was interesting to see the failure to check the penalty Sonny should have had in the first half [ie. where the foul ended up, not just where it started]

And of course even when they checked - eg. Salah's attack on the Porto player, they somehow deemed that not worthy of a red card.

Preventing the spectators from seeing the incidents, either way, also reinforces the potential for corruption.

Deeply disappointing, given my hopes that it could be the way to even up the playing field.

Do we know why Poch doesn't like it, by the way ?
 

carmeldevil

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Rose yesterday for me was a great example - he's sliding to block a shot, how do you do that with your arms next to or behind your body?

Rules is rules i guess but it's not right. I thought they had it for a while but we're going backwards on this one.
Time for Spurs to start looking for defenders with no arms.
 

spursfan77

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I really rated this posting by Mr Drink, but think it will get lost in the Manshitty thread, and deserves to be an ongoing theme, especially as our esteemed manager has spoken out against its current usage.

So let me first move the excellent post to here and then comment on it.

Sorry I cant move all the other responses, as to do that would be to exceed my role as a simple punter here...

I don't think we have a VAR dedicated thread so I will put it here.

I had been slowly coming around to VAR but this game has turned me against it. I thought VAR would be a tool for reducing corruption in football. But now I am not so sure.

The game can still be corrupted. The new targets are not the refs, but the people sitting in the VAR room. The new targets for hints and pressure on what would be the "best" outcome will be them. The implicit, or even explicit in some countries, pressure on what would be best for your career, for the nation, for your bank balance...we know where your kids go to school kind of thing will be the VAR room people.

They now have the power to decisively swing games. IF the VAR people felt any kind of pressure, real or imagined, to help Spurs there is no way they would have flagged up the Rose "handball"...it would have been ignored and no-one would have questioned it. If they felt any pressure to favour Spurs they would have flagged up the Fernandinho elbow to the head...and once played multiple times in slow motion he would have got a red card.

The wholly subjective behaviour of the VAR team favoured City (whistle...shocked face), and there is no come back on them for doing so.

A skilled, and corrupted, VAR team can scan every small detail of a game looking for a moment to intervene if they think it will help to get the "right" result.

I hope there are enough decent people out there who would stand up to pressure. But do we trust UEFA, who constantly change TV payments and competition rules purely to benefit a small handful of clubs...would they care if VAR accidentally helps those same clubs? What about FIFA and Infantino's huge bromance love-in with any and every scumbag dictator out there...do you trust him to stop it being an avenue for "inappropriate" pressure?

I am not sure I am.


Broadly speaking I go along with this.

I've watched some of the Spanish games that have used it, and what struck me was exactly the above - the selective use in favour of the usual big teams. Checking goals is one thing, but failure to check possible penalties for the smaller teams is quite another.

So it was interesting to see the failure to check the penalty Sonny should have had in the first half [ie. where the foul ended up, not just where it started]

And of course even when they checked - eg. Salah's attack on the Porto player, they somehow deemed that not worthy of a red card.

Preventing the spectators from seeing the incidents, either way, also reinforces the potential for corruption.

Deeply disappointing, given my hopes that it could be the way to even up the playing field.

Do we know why Poch doesn't like it, by the way ?
Being in the stadium we’ve no idea what’s being reviewed. I think they have to bring it in and let us know like in cricket.

I agree with what you are saying on the whole. Maybe they should just let the ref decide when he wants VAR to be used rather than the people watching the games making that choice. That would give more control to the refs and also help them to not feel undermined. I think they will start to be especially in the cases where their red cards are over turned. All that does is undermine the referee.
 

Tucker

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Being in the stadium we’ve no idea what’s being reviewed. I think they have to bring it in and let us know like in cricket.

I agree with what you are saying on the whole. Maybe they should just let the ref decide when he wants VAR to be used rather than the people watching the games making that choice. That would give more control to the refs and also help them to not feel undermined. I think they will start to be especially in the cases where their red cards are over turned. All that does is undermine the referee.
Our refs aren’t competent or humble enough to do this. Can you imagine Mike Dean admitting he was wrong in sending someone off? The whole point of VAR is to correct the obvious mistakes that the referee misses.
 

spursfan77

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Our refs aren’t competent or humble enough to do this. Can you imagine Mike Dean admitting he was wrong in sending someone off? The whole point of VAR is to correct the obvious mistakes that the referee misses.
No I can’t, that’s why I don’t think that VAR should have the ability to over turn red cards.

Maybe the PL should try and get refs in who can be more grown up and humble then? The introduction of VAR in England is going to require referees to be trained in its use. I suspect it will be a good 5/6 seasons of playing with VAR before we have officials of using it properly and efficiently.
 

Tucker

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No I can’t, that’s why I don’t think that VAR should have the ability to over turn red cards.

Maybe the PL should try and get refs in who can be more grown up and humble then? The introduction of VAR in England is going to require referees to be trained in its use. I suspect it will be a good 5/6 seasons of playing with VAR before we have officials of using it properly and efficiently.
As we saw at Old Trafford yesterday, the standard of refs is really poor. Many of them just aren’t up to the job of making the big calls with a clear head. I’ve no problem having a guy in an office watching the match on tv to override glaring errors. The implementation of VAR needs work, and yeah I think it will take a few years, but it will get there eventually.
 

spursfan77

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As we saw at Old Trafford yesterday, the standard of refs is really poor. Many of them just aren’t up to the job of making the big calls with a clear head. I’ve no problem having a guy in an office watching the match on tv to override glaring errors. The implementation of VAR needs work, and yeah I think it will take a few years, but it will get there eventually.
I agree it is required. I just think they need to tell us what’s going on in the stadium more and that would be having the incident up on the big screens so we know what the VAR officials are reviewing and looking at. It’s all set up for tv but not for those going to games, which is unfair.
 

UncleBuck

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Best thing to happen in football!😂
That would have stood two seasons ago!
 
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