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Time to drop the 4-2-3-1?

razzmaster

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2008
2,312
13,056
To play 433 you need solid attacking FBs and excellent DM to cover them and Ndombele/ GLC when they push fwd

We don't have a great RW either. Lamela gets injured far too often

And yeah I think our problem is not in the basic lineup

That's why I literally said we need 2 new full backs, a new dm and a right winger in the post you part quoted
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
I’d be looking at
Gazzaniga; Walker-Peters, Sanchez, Vertonghen, Sessegnon; Winks, Dier; Lo Celso, Ndombele, Son; Kane

Vorm, Foyth, Davies, Tanganga/Skipp, Sissoko, Lamela, Moura/Parrott.

Whilst that’s laid out as a 4231 to start, but could flex very easily to 3421/3412 with Dier dropping into a back 3, Ndombele pairing up with Winks in the middle of the park. Less need for an out and out DM with a back 3. Son could tuck in alongside Lo Celso as AM, or partner Kane up top with Lo Celso in the No 10 role. You could argue Walker-Peters and Sessegnon could be lightweight on the flanks, but with the Dier able to patrol, they should be ok.

Alternatively, that could switch to a 433/4321/4312 in a similar way.
Would you sell Dele Alli?
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
At the moment I don't think the formation is our concern.

We are getting destroyed in the full back positions. Poch needs to find our best option out of Aurier, Davies, Sessegnon, KWP, Foyth, Vertonghen, Rose and Dier.

In midfield we need to get the blend right. We have players with a couple of strengths but limitations and new talented players who appear unfit.

Then up front we have talented players but aren't looking clinical.

These issues are about personnel over formation.
This formation addresses all those things you mentioned
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,936
This formation addresses all those things you mentioned
It just doesn’t. When the players aren’t performing, lack effort and the manager is struggling for tactics to suit the personnel then no formation becomes a magical fix.

Pure fantasy.
 

frost14

Smell my cheese
Aug 22, 2017
94
164
It just doesn’t. When the players aren’t performing, lack effort and the manager is struggling for tactics to suit the personnel then no formation becomes a magical fix.

Pure fantasy.
Yea I agree with this to be honest.

I think 433 would be spurs best system with a few additions (RB-DM) but changing now would be pretty pointless in my opinion, its way beyond that by the looks and sounds of things coming from ITK.
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
It just doesn’t. When the players aren’t performing, lack effort and the manager is struggling for tactics to suit the personnel then no formation becomes a magical fix.

Pure fantasy.
formation is apart of tactics, the players are performing partly down to a lack of effort but also down to the roles they have.

you said fullbacks are an issue and need to be sorted out > moving to a 4-3-3 with defensive fullbacks gives the defence more stability. They no longer have to get forward because width will be provided by the wingers who are now being asked to actually be on the wing

part of the reason they’re getting “destroyed is because they are always up and asked to provide width”

midfield like I’ve already said in the original post, we have four solid option for the 3 man midfield, ndombele/glc are already creative and putting them in a 3 man midfield where they are not the holding player frees them up and doesn’t give them as much defensive responsibility like they would have in a pivot.

same situation with winks, could see him as a 6 or one of the two players ahead. As a 6 he’s going to be asked to do what he does already and he won’t be tasked with being creative. Same if he was to play as an 8 less defensive responsibility then he would have in a pivot.

Sissoko similar situation, make the job simpler for them. As a number 6 he’d get asked to break up play and shift the ball to whoever is in front. Right now the midfield is struggling because whoever is in the pivot is being asked to defend and be creative.

Kane plays in 3 man front line for England and does well there give him the same situation...son is always dangerous and giving him the responsibility to take chances and more shots as a LW won’t be a problem for him...whoever is at RW (Lamela, Lucas, Sessengon possibly) just has to support sonny and Kane
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,988
81,936
formation is apart of tactics, the players are performing partly down to a lack of effort but also down to the roles they have.

you said fullbacks are an issue and need to be sorted out > moving to a 4-3-3 with defensive fullbacks gives the defence more stability. They no longer have to get forward because width will be provided by the wingers who are now being asked to actually be on the wing

part of the reason they’re getting “destroyed is because they are always up and asked to provide width”

midfield like I’ve already said in the original post, we have four solid option for the 3 man midfield, ndombele/glc are already creative and putting them in a 3 man midfield where they are not the holding player frees them up and doesn’t give them as much defensive responsibility like they would have in a pivot.

same situation with winks, could see him as a 6 or one of the two players ahead. As a 6 he’s going to be asked to do what he does already and he won’t be tasked with being creative. Same if he was to play as an 8 less defensive responsibility then he would have in a pivot.

Sissoko similar situation, make the job simpler for them. As a number 6 he’d get asked to break up play and shift the ball to whoever is in front. Right now the midfield is struggling because whoever is in the pivot is being asked to defend and be creative.

Kane plays in 3 man front line for England and does well there give him the same situation...son is always dangerous and giving him the responsibility to take chances and more shots as a LW won’t be a problem for him...whoever is at RW (Lamela, Lucas, Sessengon possibly) just has to support sonny and Kane
Sorry but I genuinely don't believe that simply changing our formation will resolve all our issues.

It can improve certain aspects but our current issues go much deeper.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
formation is apart of tactics, the players are performing partly down to a lack of effort but also down to the roles they have.

you said fullbacks are an issue and need to be sorted out > moving to a 4-3-3 with defensive fullbacks gives the defence more stability. They no longer have to get forward because width will be provided by the wingers who are now being asked to actually be on the wing

part of the reason they’re getting “destroyed is because they are always up and asked to provide width”

midfield like I’ve already said in the original post, we have four solid option for the 3 man midfield, ndombele/glc are already creative and putting them in a 3 man midfield where they are not the holding player frees them up and doesn’t give them as much defensive responsibility like they would have in a pivot.

same situation with winks, could see him as a 6 or one of the two players ahead. As a 6 he’s going to be asked to do what he does already and he won’t be tasked with being creative. Same if he was to play as an 8 less defensive responsibility then he would have in a pivot.

Sissoko similar situation, make the job simpler for them. As a number 6 he’d get asked to break up play and shift the ball to whoever is in front. Right now the midfield is struggling because whoever is in the pivot is being asked to defend and be creative.

Kane plays in 3 man front line for England and does well there give him the same situation...son is always dangerous and giving him the responsibility to take chances and more shots as a LW won’t be a problem for him...whoever is at RW (Lamela, Lucas, Sessengon possibly) just has to support sonny and Kane
I would love this formation, we just need someone as good as son on the RW and a 2016 era wanyama. Our backups in these positions leave a lot to be desired though. 4231 really hides our weakness in depth; we play Ams on the wing such as Alli and Eriksen who shouldn't be there but because we play with 3 Ams they float. 4-3-3 you would need like for like replacements on the wing and Son is our only quality player there.


DM - Dier, Wanyama (not good enough)
CM - Lo Celso, Winks, Eriksen (leaving)
CM - N'Dombele, Alli, Sissoko (not good enough)

LW - Son, Sees (unproven for us)
RW - Lamela (more an AM) Lucas (not good enough)
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
Sorry but I genuinely don't believe that simply changing our formation will resolve all our issues.

It can improve certain aspects but our current issues go much deeper.
I’m not saying it will and haven’t claimed that but the first step is to try get the squad playing good football that suits them
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I would love this formation, we just need someone as good as son on the RW and a 2016 era wanyama. Our backups in these positions leave a lot to be desired though. 4231 really hides our weakness in depth; we play Ams on the wing such as Alli and Eriksen who shouldn't be there but because we play with 3 Ams they float. 4-3-3 you would need like for like replacements on the wing and Son is our only quality player there.


DM - Dier, Wanyama (not good enough)
CM - Lo Celso, Winks, Eriksen (leaving)
CM - N'Dombele, Alli, Sissoko (not good enough)

LW - Son, Sees (unproven for us)
RW - Lamela (more an AM) Lucas (not good enough)

yeah I do kind of agree, those positions would have to be upgraded definitely but in terms of something to get the team moving again I’d like to see us try it out

that’s why I mentioned four solid options for the 3 man midfield, I think Sissoko for now if we were to try this out should stick to being a DM cause loke you said our options there are quite poor. I’d love to see Dele in midfield and have wanted him there since he signed...not sure how’d he do but he’s fit such a specific skill set but I feel like he’s quite athletic not as much as Sissoko but enough to be in the middle of the park

our wingers are not the greatest either but for now I think it could hold up if they’re given strict roles/tasks...I’d like to see Sess on the right Or Son on the right Sess on the left
 

carpediem991

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2011
8,836
20,308
I basically think it is not so much a problem of a system. There are teams that play a 4-2-3-1 succesfully and we did it for a few years.

But if we are thinking about different shapes I would like to see a refreshing 4-4-2 at times to include young Troy who could learn from Harry and use the space when everyones eyes are on H.

Something like:

--------------------------------------Lloris/Gazza--------------------------------------
--Foyth---------------Toby/Dier/Jan-------------Sanchez------------------Davies----
--Lo Celso/Lamela----Sissoko/Winks--------Ndombele-------------------Sess/Son-
--------------------------------Kane---------Parrot/Dele-------------------------------
 

fishhhandaricecake

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2018
18,702
46,941
formation is apart of tactics, the players are performing partly down to a lack of effort but also down to the roles they have.

you said fullbacks are an issue and need to be sorted out > moving to a 4-3-3 with defensive fullbacks gives the defence more stability. They no longer have to get forward because width will be provided by the wingers who are now being asked to actually be on the wing

part of the reason they’re getting “destroyed is because they are always up and asked to provide width”

midfield like I’ve already said in the original post, we have four solid option for the 3 man midfield, ndombele/glc are already creative and putting them in a 3 man midfield where they are not the holding player frees them up and doesn’t give them as much defensive responsibility like they would have in a pivot.

same situation with winks, could see him as a 6 or one of the two players ahead. As a 6 he’s going to be asked to do what he does already and he won’t be tasked with being creative. Same if he was to play as an 8 less defensive responsibility then he would have in a pivot.

Sissoko similar situation, make the job simpler for them. As a number 6 he’d get asked to break up play and shift the ball to whoever is in front. Right now the midfield is struggling because whoever is in the pivot is being asked to defend and be creative.

Kane plays in 3 man front line for England and does well there give him the same situation...son is always dangerous and giving him the responsibility to take chances and more shots as a LW won’t be a problem for him...whoever is at RW (Lamela, Lucas, Sessengon possibly) just has to support sonny and Kane
Good post
 

skaz04nik

Active Member
Oct 14, 2019
124
146
you said fullbacks are an issue and need to be sorted out > moving to a 4-3-3 with defensive fullbacks gives the defence more stability. They no longer have to get forward because width will be provided by the wingers who are now being asked to actually be on the wing

Eh? It's the other way around I think

in 433 FBs are obliged to push forward, that's how you get numerical advantage in the final 3rd

Look at TAA/ Robertson heatmap here, its true classic for 433
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
Eh? It's the other way around I think

in 433 FBs are obliged to push forward, that's how you get numerical advantage in the final 3rd

Look at TAA/ Robertson heatmap here, its true classic for 433

fullbacks in the modern game in any formation are obliged to get forward. Liverpool imo isnt the best example as they actually have fullbacks who are good on both ends, furthermore both are very dangerous with/crossing longballls, they rarely need to get to the byline to be dangerous

then you add to the fact they have a the best CB in the league in van dijk, arguably the best keeper and arguably the best defensive midfiekder it makes it much easier for their fullbacks to get forward. we dont have the same quality which is why ive opted for defensive fullbacks who dont constantly get up and down
 

ravo

SC Supporter
Jun 4, 2004
4,787
2,885
After the weekend, do we think Winks can play the DM/pivot role in a 4-3-3?
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
I still feel 4231 is a much more flexible system our problem stems from having poor CB's (Jan Toby levels have dropped alarmingly) the wingbacks Rose and Aurier have been a joke both defensively and in attack.

433 in general is played by the best teams across Europe but like all systems its not full proof.
 
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