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Underinvestment in Players

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
The thing is we all know how the summer will go. Miss out on our top targets due to Levy fucking about with the negations and then in the last week of the transfer window we will bring in the scraps left over that the other real big clubs don’t want.

The claim I’ve seen in the last transfer window and last summer that we have one of the best scouting networks in the world still makes me laugh.
Of course nothing will change any player's that get recruited won't happen until the last couple of weeks and yes it will be scraps again, the likes of wolves and west ham will out spend us.
 

Spurs72

Don't Call It A Comeback
May 20, 2008
565
484
I said this same thing in a Match Thread like a month ago, we do not have enough bodys out there to call on in times of need, not nearly enough Investment in the Club. Today was a time of need, Burnley was a time of need,Crystal Palace was a time of need, imagine if Son never cameback when he did, you need to be able to call on a fresh player, How's Janssen or N'koudou doing Poch
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
Dembele sale :X3::poop:

What an absolute idiot decision - as loads on here said at the time

As always, penny wise pound foolish.

LEVY YOU ARE AN IDIOT
The same Dembele who's literally only just made his debut because of injury issues, was nearly out of contract, hadn't been fit enough to perform well for us in some time, and would apparently only have stayed had we offered him a fairly long contract despite said issues? I don't think we'd be in a different position at all. Even today - would people have been calling on him to start having just been declared available, ahead of Dier or Sissoko? I highly doubt it. It's all very well to say in hindsight he might have made a difference, but in reality we'd have less money available to invest and he probably wouldn't have started a league game since early December.
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
Here to say the new stadium does not have a cheese room

And the complaining about us investing in those premium and corporate facilities just shows a total lack of any business sense. Corporate revenue is one of two key areas we lag behind our rivals in. And it can pretty much only be increased in dedicated, new-build stadia. The likes of Chelsea struggle despite their success because their grounds are dilapidated. So when we're building a new ground, you want us to not spend the small additional amount to make those facilities top notch, when they could mean tens of millions in extra revenue for generations to come?! You'd have to be absolutely insane. Those facilities likely have the best return out of any part of the stadium, they're even more important than the capacity increase, of course we're going to make them as best we can and future proof as much as possible.
 

Hoddle&Waddle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,337
17,565
The same Dembele who's literally only just made his debut because of injury issues, was nearly out of contract, hadn't been fit enough to perform well for us in some time, and would apparently only have stayed had we offered him a fairly long contract despite said issues? I don't think we'd be in a different position at all. Even today - would people have been calling on him to start having just been declared available, ahead of Dier or Sissoko? I highly doubt it. It's all very well to say in hindsight he might have made a difference, but in reality we'd have less money available to invest and he probably wouldn't have started a league game since early December.
The point is we didn't replace him, even though we knew Wanyama was out long-term.

That was just utter madness.
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
The point is we didn't replace him, even though we knew Wanyama was out long-term.

That was just utter madness.
Which is a very different matter to the decision to sell him. I find it nearly impossible to see the argument for keeping him. The question is whether there's someone out there we could have realistically got in that would have improved the squad over Oliver Skipp. And I think from the outside it's nearly impossible to tell on that one. We just don't have any idea how the finances are after the stadium issues. Especially if in January we didn't even know whether it'd make the start of next season. We could have been facing revenue dropping off a cliff with very few corporate/premium sales, on top of however big the bill is for the delay. If it turns out they're fine then I'd agree that one more experienced player should have been signed for rotation at minimum even if they weren't a world-beater. But my inclination given that over the long-term we've beaten any reasonable expectation is to trust the club that they wouldn't make such a simple and obvious mistake.
 

Saoirse

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
6,143
15,550
The more I think about it actually the more it makes sense. Over the long term we've been keeping our net transfer spend at effective zero. This was very, very sensible for two reasons. Firstly, it's meant that we can pay for much of the stadium without financing. This not only avoids the interest on that portion, but likely the interest on the remainder too since we're talking about a lower, and therefore lower-risk, sum. Secondly, it's meant that while doing this we've still had the space to substantially increase the wage bill. It's less exciting than transfers, but it's meant we've been able to keep almost the entire squad from the 86 point season together, the only exception being Walker. I'd take that over a situation where we had to sell a couple of players - Kane? Dele? - as we couldn't meet their wage demands, but would be able to have a ~£40m net spend to replace them. Players of the same quality would also have unaffordable wages, so it'd be Bale all over again with a scattergun of players who may or may not work.

Therefore, it makes sense that we spent nothing as it is given that even with the Dembele sell we've had a net spend in the Poch era since Lucas signed. If the stadium's financial issues have been on the worse side of the scale, then that effectively seals it. All that's left to do is ask what's gone wrong? For me, that's not just the stadium. It's the inability to move on signings who haven't worked out. On that count we seem to have hit a perfect storm as - they have higher wages than they used to, other teams are learning that top-level castoffs aren't the best investment, and the players are less and less willing to drop a level or two having failed with us. Buying players for the sake of it is the opposite of a solution to this. I can entirely see why they thought the best course of action was to hold tight, use the likes of Skipp as well as 'failed' signings (like Sissoko, who's come good as a result of this choice!), and save the money for once the stadium's done, our spending power is greater, and we can actually afford and entice better players to the club.

I think a large part of this is that fan's expectations are probably unrealisticly high right now. By all accounts the goal given to Poch was to have us in a position where we could finish in the Top 4 once we'd moved in. He achieved this years early and kept it up, to the extent that even still being in the race in early March is now deemed a failure by many fans, when under the original plan that would have been an overachivement. Unfortunately, this success doesn't really outweigh the structural issues stopping us from really strenghthening the squad - just providing enough to mostly keep together that very good squad we unexpectedly and cheaply assembled. The other contributing factor to it for me is the increase in ST prices to the most expensive in the world. I do think that one, long-term, is a mistake - it will make it much harder to attract new fans as well. And the revenue increase from it is really pretty small, again not enough to change the big picture by any substantial amount.
 

13VanDerBale13

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2011
14,269
33,647
its amazing we are in the position we are with ZERO signings in a WHOLE SEASON, should we finish outside the top 4 we can hardly be surprised can we? from the position we were in yes maybe so, but in a full season i would say these results were always likely due to our lack of depth, in midfield particularly
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
The more I think about it actually the more it makes sense. Over the long term we've been keeping our net transfer spend at effective zero. This was very, very sensible for two reasons. Firstly, it's meant that we can pay for much of the stadium without financing. This not only avoids the interest on that portion, but likely the interest on the remainder too since we're talking about a lower, and therefore lower-risk, sum. Secondly, it's meant that while doing this we've still had the space to substantially increase the wage bill. It's less exciting than transfers, but it's meant we've been able to keep almost the entire squad from the 86 point season together, the only exception being Walker. I'd take that over a situation where we had to sell a couple of players - Kane? Dele? - as we couldn't meet their wage demands, but would be able to have a ~£40m net spend to replace them. Players of the same quality would also have unaffordable wages, so it'd be Bale all over again with a scattergun of players who may or may not work.

Therefore, it makes sense that we spent nothing as it is given that even with the Dembele sell we've had a net spend in the Poch era since Lucas signed. If the stadium's financial issues have been on the worse side of the scale, then that effectively seals it. All that's left to do is ask what's gone wrong? For me, that's not just the stadium. It's the inability to move on signings who haven't worked out. On that count we seem to have hit a perfect storm as - they have higher wages than they used to, other teams are learning that top-level castoffs aren't the best investment, and the players are less and less willing to drop a level or two having failed with us. Buying players for the sake of it is the opposite of a solution to this. I can entirely see why they thought the best course of action was to hold tight, use the likes of Skipp as well as 'failed' signings (like Sissoko, who's come good as a result of this choice!), and save the money for once the stadium's done, our spending power is greater, and we can actually afford and entice better players to the club.

I think a large part of this is that fan's expectations are probably unrealisticly high right now. By all accounts the goal given to Poch was to have us in a position where we could finish in the Top 4 once we'd moved in. He achieved this years early and kept it up, to the extent that even still being in the race in early March is now deemed a failure by many fans, when under the original plan that would have been an overachivement. Unfortunately, this success doesn't really outweigh the structural issues stopping us from really strenghthening the squad - just providing enough to mostly keep together that very good squad we unexpectedly and cheaply assembled. The other contributing factor to it for me is the increase in ST prices to the most expensive in the world. I do think that one, long-term, is a mistake - it will make it much harder to attract new fans as well. And the revenue increase from it is really pretty small, again not enough to change the big picture by any substantial amount.
A late and surprising response from your good self Mr chairman:joyful:
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
That's what its always been.

This thing about players wanting to play at big stadiums and it's going to get us to the next level is over exaggerating the facts.

Players want money and ambition in a club on the pitch. The stadium is abit further down the priroties I would've thought?

None of the Chelsea players care that they play at that shithole Stamford Bridge every week.

They care that they all get paid £200k per week and win titles almost every season.
 

riggi

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2008
48,487
104,719
None of the Chelsea players care that they play at that shithole Stamford Bridge every week.

They care that they all get paid £200k per week and win titles almost every season.

Ding ding bingo.
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
Our transfer policy is fucked too.

N'koudou? N'Jie? Janssen?

Now when we get linked with Jarrod Bowen or Jack Clarke we get Poch saying we're categorically not interested in those players - or even that he'd never heard of them, like Bowen.

Few years ago we'd have snapped them both up already. Whatever happened to buying young and British?
 

Stavrogin

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2004
2,361
1,474
I said this same thing in a Match Thread like a month ago, we do not have enough bodys out there to call on in times of need, not nearly enough Investment in the Club. Today was a time of need, Burnley was a time of need,Crystal Palace was a time of need, imagine if Son never cameback when he did, you need to be able to call on a fresh player, How's Janssen or N'koudou doing Poch

But conversely, when we had our massive injury crisis we ground out good results.

Surely, that was when the squad showed its depth?

The injuries have been horrendous but there's more going on this season than that. What stands out to me is that we seem to giving away a lot of good chances, far more than previous years and far more so than our opponents. Why is that?

In most cases it's pretty clear. Teams sit back, we commit men forward, we make little headway until someone commits a poor individual error and then we're out of position and way too open.

So there's two problems: Players seem to be making (usually unforced) individual errors at a higher rate than previously and our central midfield is less capable of responding and constricting the opposition when something goes wrong. Dier/Dembele and Dembele/Wanyama were far more rigid and reactive duos than Winks/Sissoko (despite both doing well this season).

Why are we making so many stupid errors? Why did Lloris become so eratic? etc. There are so many potential reasons but hopefully we'll get over it soon.
 

Gb160

Well done boys. Good process
Jun 20, 2012
23,646
93,314
And even then it will just be a token statement. The club wouldnt suffer from an empty ground financially due to tv money. It would be embarrassing for them though.

The West Ham thing is more effective but it won't happen. We will just all grumble and then sing about poch being magic when we beat a big team.
This.
A couple of years ago, some blokes tried to organise a 'Levy out' protest outside the ground, I laughed and took the piss because the turnout was 2, and it looked pretty daft.
But at least these two fellas had the bollocks to actually do something about what they believed in.

Nowadays people think writing a few words on a micro blogging site, or complaining anonymously on a message board is actually going to achieve something...it's mental.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
It could just be that after three great seasons we are now just having a bit of a worse season. It does happen. Utd until they sacked Mourinho. Arsenal both of the last two seasons. Chelsea every other season (though this is the second in a row unusually for them). Ultimately, being good at football is difficult. That’s why they do it and we watch it. Sometimes it just doesn’t go well.

This is the exact same lot that three weeks ago we’re going to challenge for the title, we haven’t just become terrible in that time. The manager hasn’t suddenly forgotten how to do is job in under a month. We’ve just hit a bad spell, probably our worst in his five years in charge. Now we need to respond by going to Anfield and winning.
 

cider spurs

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2016
9,399
23,731
I'm not getting too drawn into this. I understand the fundamentals of having competition for starting berth's, the notion that a few signings could've seen adequate opportunity for rotation and player rest.

What I would like to mention again is the lack of application at times.

Rose has been out for a period this season, often rotated with Davies, and about to be match free for 3 weeks.

He can't be that fatigued to produce such a brainfart as yesterday. Nor am I accepting he's rusty.

It's about application, focus and desire. I can handle if a player is limited in ability, but feck me, when earning over a £million a year, I'd expect the basics to be a given.

I'm not looking for scape goats either, Rose has also performed well at times this season.

No, this can be aimed at many, plenty who seem to go through the motions in games without really pushing themselves.

I'm not saying our players go out to purposely lose, but I do think that they could show more application, desire and focus to win at times.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,891
45,040
During a summer transfer window the main focus of the club should be that window, last summer it most definitely was not. Last summer it was the stadium and when the man front and centre of the transfer campaign is also the man completely engrossed in the stadium project something is going to give and it did. I expected last summer to the beginning of a more aggressive transfer policy with the club being prepared to increase the spend on fees and wages but it didn't happen, this summer it has to happen, there really is no alternative now so whilst I accepted that circumstances done for us last summer that cannot happen again. This really is the time, we cross the Rubicon and go for it or we go backwards. Personally I have to believe Daniel Levy realises that.
 
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