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What Our Opponents' Fans Are Saying About Us 19/20

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
Absolutely. I don't think there are many suggesting xG give the perfect overview of how a game was "actually" played. Goals scored is very "black and white" xG just provides some gray into the mix.

Completely agree - it is a good addition to the other stats available and helps paint a picture. Just watching a game can be deceiving too. I watch a lot of games twice and am quite surprised by how much bias I had watching the first time around.
 

Havre

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
829
1,065
Its another pointless statistic which people have become obsessed with. Assists being another one which doesn't tell the full picture

What is pointless about it?

What is the "full picture" of a football game?
 

TheHoddleWaddle

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2013
11,289
20,289
Absolutely. I don't think there are many suggesting xG give the perfect overview of how a game was "actually" played. Goals scored is very "black and white" xG just provides some gray into the mix.
How does it account for a tuft of grass sending the ball off course for an open goal. Or a players lace moving to change direction of a cross, so it ends up in the goal. Theres an infinite number of possible variations, which makes it impossible to say what was an expected goal.

Anyway, massively off topic.
 

Havre

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
829
1,065
How does it account for a tuft of grass sending the ball off course for an open goal. Or a players lace moving to change direction of a cross, so it ends up in the goal. Theres an infinite number of possible variations, which makes it impossible to say what was an expected goal.

Anyway, massively off topic.

That is where probability comes into the picture. xG (at least as a concept) might give a better understanding of a performances (and even more importantly performances over time) than just looking at points. Points should be more random (certainly higher variance) than xG.
 
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whitelightwhiteheat

SC Supporter
Jul 21, 2006
6,517
3,195
Should kane join a team more likely to win trophies, or stay with his boyhood club that he loves?

Slightly differing scenarios. Steve Bull was playing in Division 2. Kane is at least playing top flight football for a club with a chance of winning trophies. Sidenote: Kane will leave if we don't win anything in the next 2 years, in my opinion. And he will deserve to do so and should leave with our blessings to do so, too. I'd hate it if Kane goes his entire career winning fuck all.
 

whitelightwhiteheat

SC Supporter
Jul 21, 2006
6,517
3,195
What is pointless about it?

What is the "full picture" of a football game?

A great example is the Jan "assist" for the Son goal. And another example in the past was Tom Carroll's pass to Gareth Bale on the halfway line against West Ham for that goal he scored against them.

If a goalkeeper rolls the ball out to someone who then dribbles past the entire opposition 4 times before putting the ball into the top corner he would get an assist, regardless of what happened afterwards. So assist stats are not necessarily a true reflection.

People wank over stats too much these days, basically. Too many Football Manager obsessed lads who want to prove whatever point they're trying to make with numbers, rather than highlighting actual footballing abilities. "He must be good, he's got 7 assists. Most on the team. " - So yeah, he got 7 assists, but that doesn't take into consideration the 550 opportunities to create a chance which were fucked up by poor execution or decision making.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Slightly differing scenarios. Steve Bull was playing in Division 2. Kane is at least playing top flight football for a club with a chance of winning trophies. Sidenote: Kane will leave if we don't win anything in the next 2 years, in my opinion. And he will deserve to do so and should leave with our blessings to do so, too. I'd hate it if Kane goes his entire career winning fuck all.

No difference. Bull played for the team he loved, he was happy and he is a legend there. Other people thought he could have done better and won more but he was happy. So was le tissier. People think kane should go to madrid or city but he seems happy here so good luck to him.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
A great example is the Jan "assist" for the Son goal. And another example in the past was Tom Carroll's pass to Gareth Bale on the halfway line against West Ham for that goal he scored against them.

If a goalkeeper rolls the ball out to someone who then dribbles past the entire opposition 4 times before putting the ball into the top corner he would get an assist, regardless of what happened afterwards. So assist stats are not necessarily a true reflection.

People wank over stats too much these days, basically. Too many Football Manager obsessed lads who want to prove whatever point they're trying to make with numbers, rather than highlighting actual footballing abilities. "He must be good, he's got 7 assists. Most on the team. " - So yeah, he got 7 assists, but that doesn't take into consideration the 550 opportunities to create a chance which were fucked up by poor execution or decision making.

Um, the consideration of the 550 opportunities is what you get from delving deeper into the stats.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
People wank over stats too much these days, basically. Too many Football Manager obsessed lads who want to prove whatever point they're trying to make with numbers, rather than highlighting actual footballing abilities. "He must be good, he's got 7 assists. Most on the team. " - So yeah, he got 7 assists, but that doesn't take into consideration the 550 opportunities to create a chance which were fucked up by poor execution or decision making.
No, but xA does. :D
 

Havre

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
829
1,065
A great example is the Jan "assist" for the Son goal. And another example in the past was Tom Carroll's pass to Gareth Bale on the halfway line against West Ham for that goal he scored against them.

If a goalkeeper rolls the ball out to someone who then dribbles past the entire opposition 4 times before putting the ball into the top corner he would get an assist, regardless of what happened afterwards. So assist stats are not necessarily a true reflection.

People wank over stats too much these days, basically. Too many Football Manager obsessed lads who want to prove whatever point they're trying to make with numbers, rather than highlighting actual footballing abilities. "He must be good, he's got 7 assists. Most on the team. " - So yeah, he got 7 assists, but that doesn't take into consideration the 550 opportunities to create a chance which were fucked up by poor execution or decision making.

That wasn't my question at all.

And this is exactly why one would need more than just goals and assists to evaluate players and team performances. That doesn't mean that it is realistic to come up with x amount of stats that will "explain everything".
 

whitelightwhiteheat

SC Supporter
Jul 21, 2006
6,517
3,195
No difference. Bull played for the team he loved, he was happy and he is a legend there. Other people thought he could have done better and won more but he was happy. So was le tissier. People think kane should go to madrid or city but he seems happy here so good luck to him.

So the fact that Kane has opportunities to win trophies where as Steve Bull did not makes no difference? Alright then...

Kane has also come out and said he wants to be winning trophies. With the rumours surrounding Poch's dismissal and Kane's involvement being that he went to Levy and said he wants to win stuff and it's time for a change. He's happy now - but will he be at age 28 if we're still fumbling around winning fuck all? Maybe he will, I feel bad for him if he is happy. He's a genuine world class striker who deserves to end his career with a stack load of medals and memories of winning stuff. If we can't offer that in the next two years he should go. Anyone who doesn't agree is massively selfish, in my opinion.
 

whitelightwhiteheat

SC Supporter
Jul 21, 2006
6,517
3,195
That wasn't my question at all.

And this is exactly why one would need more than just goals and assists to evaluate players and team performances. That doesn't mean that it is realistic to come up with x amount of stats that will "explain everything".

Maybe just watch a game and enjoy it without worrying about numbers? Is basically what I'm saying.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,957
There are those that use it on Twitter amongst a myriad of other stats to try and objectively analyse football rather than actually watching it, usually coming up with complete guff as the conclusion.

I've read stuff like Harry Kane is a similar level to Danny Ings and Andre Gray - based on stats (obvioulsy not concerned with goals..?!?).

Sucks the joy out of football.

I chuck them in with that group of people who seem to enjoy everything about football other than watching what happens on a rectangle of grass for 90 minutes. It’s the Football Manager generation (of which I’m one, since the first game) who seem to be more interested in stats, transfers, finances etc rather than what going on on the pitch.

Nothing wrong with that if that’s what floats their boats. I just like going to games and watching the match.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
So the fact that Kane has opportunities to win trophies where as Steve Bull did not makes no difference? Alright then...

Kane has also come out and said he wants to be winning trophies. With the rumours surrounding Poch's dismissal and Kane's involvement being that he went to Levy and said he wants to win stuff and it's time for a change. He's happy now - but will he be at age 28 if we're still fumbling around winning fuck all? Maybe he will, I feel bad for him if he is happy. He's a genuine world class striker who deserves to end his career with a stack load of medals and memories of winning stuff. If we can't offer that in the next two years he should go. Anyone who doesn't agree is massively selfish, in my opinion.

It's other people thinking they can do better. Bull was happy, he is a legend, he has a statue and a stand named after him. It's only you that is disappointed. Would he have wanted to win a bucket load of trophies? Ofcourse.

Sol campbell won a lot of trophies. Does anyone give a shit about him?
 
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