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Why are we so slow?

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've literally seen cows flip sides of fields while eating with more voracity and urgency than we do most of the time. It is embarrassing how slow we are to move the ball forward, and how collectively slow we are in the attacking positions. How one side can be so lacking in pace and aggression at this level, with our resources, is utterly beyond me.
 

Arthur Hucksake

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2013
664
943
It's the job of the middle pair to recycle possession and it it to the forward 3 creators. More often than not, Eriksen ends up dropping deeper to do it because the two don't have a clue. This limits our options in the final third giving opposition time to settle.

We look better with Mason playing because he doesn't wait about and joins the forward march.

There are lots of better players at this role out there, but it involves spending.

Stambouli, Bentelab, Dembele, Capoue, Paulinho all sit in the other part of the pair and we only have Mason for the other role.

Look at Bielsa's notes for a better idea of the concepts of possession recycling and faster closing down. When executed properly, it makes for exciting football.

We just don't have the players yet.
 

Shea

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2013
7,711
10,930
For one the teams we play frequently get men behind the ball and negate any potential for quick breaks in to the space behind them - we didn't lack pace against Chelsea at home for example, nor against City away (ok we got murdered but as and when we did attack we were able to do so at pace due to the space they left by attacking us)

We're also disjointed, not a unit. People don't play the right passes at the right time enough and the off the ball players don't make the right off the ball runs

We also lack a player to set the tempo, get the ball moving and allow the players to run off the ball and stretch opponents and create space for others (plus the players required to read the runs and know what is going to happen as well as having the ability to execute the right passes)

On top of that - the most simple explanation is we lack enough players with raw pace

I at least like the fact that the Chelsea game showed the potential for the future - with Kane leading the line and players like Chadli and Erkisen attacking being supported by fall backs like Rose. I know believe we're only a player or three away from having a very good team once we gel as a squad and evolve under the new coach and his tactics.......before I was thinking there was no light at the end of the tunnel and the damage done by the Bale window and poor reinvestment would take years to undo and all us to come again
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
It's the job of the middle pair to recycle possession and it it to the forward 3 creators. More often than not, Eriksen ends up dropping deeper to do it because the two don't have a clue. This limits our options in the final third giving opposition time to settle.

We look better with Mason playing because he doesn't wait about and joins the forward march.

There are lots of better players at this role out there, but it involves spending.

Stambouli, Bentelab, Dembele, Capoue, Paulinho all sit in the other part of the pair and we only have Mason for the other role.

Look at Bielsa's notes for a better idea of the concepts of possession recycling and faster closing down. When executed properly, it makes for exciting football.

We just don't have the players yet.

Absolutely and entirely spot on, every word.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,105
47,061
Sadly I just don't think we've had good enough midfielders since Modric left.

All of our current midfielders are average when it comes to passing the ball quickly and incisively. And I include Mason and Bentaleb in that even though they've been the best of a bad bunch.
 

JohannTHFC

Active Member
Aug 2, 2014
795
1,293
We still need to replace Modric. That's the problem with our speed (in fact 90% or more of our current problems are down to lack of quality midfield players). Obviously we will most likely never have a player as good as Modric again but it's very, very strange that the club didn't even buy a players with similar traits to him instead opting to stockpile mediocre, hulking, slow midfielders who can't pass the ball.

Hector Herrera looks a good midfielder for Porto, albeit I've only seen him play in a couple of Champions League matches but he looked good and I heard good things about him. I think his value would be at least £18m at this stage but definitely looks like a player we should keep our eye on.
 

shelfboy68

Well-Known Member
Jun 14, 2008
14,566
19,651
Sadly I just don't think we've had good enough midfielders since Modric left.

All of our current midfielders are average when it comes to passing the ball quickly and incisively. And I include Mason and Bentaleb in that even though they've been the best of a bad bunch.

I think it might be better if erikson was played centrally rather than wide as i think he was brought in to replace modric.
 

lenny7

Don't worry. Bill Murray.
Jan 28, 2011
11,103
39,441
It's not pace we lack. It's purpose we lack. It's almost at times we just keep the ball for the sake of it, our possession stats are incredible but it makes for an eyesore and a fairly indifferent season.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
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It's not pace we lack. It's purpose we lack. It's almost at times we just keep the ball for the sake of it, our possession stats are incredible but it makes for an eyesore and a fairly indifferent season.

Both, but yes you are right that we do lack purpose and will to have a go.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
We still need to replace Modric. That's the problem with our speed (in fact 90% or more of our current problems are down to lack of quality midfield players). Obviously we will most likely never have a player as good as Modric again but it's very, very strange that the club didn't even buy a players with similar traits to him instead opting to stockpile mediocre, hulking, slow midfielders who can't pass the ball.

Spot the fuck on. AVB had two summers to do it, and plenty of funds, but we only piled up these lethargic logs who aren't really even that great defensively. Just stupid decisions.
 

Shea

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2013
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More so Van der Vaart. We've still never replaced Modric, nor even attempted to.
We've had a gaping hole in our midfield since he left

In that time we've signed Dembele, Capoue, Stambouli and Paulinho in our centre mid areas (ok Paulinho is more of an AM) and not one of them would I be sad to see sold tomorrow, not one of them are even as good as the players promoted from our youth system

It's a major weakness in our squad and its the reason we have fallen behind since Modric left

I can only hope that the youth players keep going from strength to strength and now we have a new manager and a new guy charged with scouting/signing players we can start correcting some of the harm done in the transfer market in recent years
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
We've had a gaping hole in our midfield since he left

In that time we've signed Dembele, Capoue, Stambouli and Paulinho in our centre mid areas (ok Paulinho is more of an AM) and not one of them would I be sad to see sold tomorrow, not one of them are even as good as the players promoted from our youth system

It's a major weakness in our squad and its the reason we have fallen behind since Modric left

I can only hope that the youth players keep going from strength to strength and now we have a new manager and a new guy charged with scouting/signing players we can start correcting some of the harm done in the transfer market in recent years

Agree verbatim except that bit about Paulinho. Is, has not, and will never be an AM. He's only being played there this season to find a way to get him on the pitch, seeing as we're much thinner at AM than we are at CM, and Paulinho is faster than other options Poch could play there from CM and is the antithesis of Poch's fast forward passing from midfield.
 

SFCS

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2013
598
1,285
There's a number of reasons for it.

Firstly, the idea behind playing backwards and sideways is to draw the opposition out. It's not something that's particularly effective in this league but it is used across Europe by good technical sides. The problem with us doing it is partly that the opposition don't usually take the bait but mostly that we didn't have the ability to quickly change the tempo. When top sides in Europe do it they can be passing neatly between their defenders and midfielders, then suddenly they'll pick a pass forward that totally changes the tempo and emphasis of the attack.

I think it is a bit of a hangover from AVB's time when we slip into that these days. When we're up against a side that want to push forward and attack then we generally see the best of our team as the space opens up for us naturally. When we're up against sides that will sit deep, foul and hit balls in behind our defence all game then we see our side run out of ideas.

I totally disagree that we were slow under Sherwood though, it was always end to end, we attack you attack. A bit of a mess at times but I never thought we played the ball slowly.

What we lack at the moment is a bit of coordination between the runners and the player on the ball. I think Pochettino's fine with backwards passes but it's got to go straight forward again, either by the player on the ball bringing it forward or passing it forward. When the game is tight, the good runs from attackers aren't getting spotted and there aren't enough good runs in the first place. We saw in preseason that we can pass it back and then move forward quickly(Mason was particularly good at it) but we keep slipping back into old habits when we have to put in the work to open up a game. We're not miles off, we do get it right at times but we're not entirely confident with it so we go back to what we are comfortable with.
 

BK007

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,136
843
Why does everyone keep putting down Mason/Bentaleb? They're young, they're learning, they're ours.

What we should do instead is get another Modric who'll put up a fuss and fuck us over is exactly what we need.

Great players have to come from somewhere, why not give ours a shot before going gallivanting all over to find specimens like Capoue.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
Why does everyone keep putting down Mason/Bentaleb? They're young, they're learning, they're ours.

What we should do instead is get another Modric who'll put up a fuss and fuck us over is exactly what we need.

Great players have to come from somewhere, why not give ours a shot before going gallivanting all over to find specimens like Capoue.

I don't mean to be a dick, but this is a really shitty interpretation of the points being made here.

No one's saying "oh we want a foreign player," they're simply ruing the fact that we had such an excellent playmaker in midfield and haven't even replaced him with a playmaker, let alone a decent one. Mason is undoubtedly a breath of fresh air as he does look to get the ball forward quickly, and his impact has been immensely appreciated. But he's still not a genuine playmaker who can make things happen with the ball at his feet, someone who can drive the ball right up the gut of the midfield and even attack the box directly if need be. He does it rarely, but not enough and I'm not sure he can work the tight spaces to quite the level we need.
 

formlesswater

Member
Jun 22, 2012
117
186
Spot the fuck on. AVB had two summers to do it, and plenty of funds, but we only piled up these lethargic logs who aren't really even that great defensively. Just stupid decisions.
Levy, not AVB, is the one who botched the Moutinho deal.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
Levy, not AVB, is the one who botched the Moutinho deal.

I don't entirely point the finger at Levy on that deal. AVB put forward some absurd demands for players with fees well beyond what he should have been asking for. At the time of requesting for Moutinho, he was asking for a player more than twice our record transfer fee for the time.

So yes, Levy did say no. But is he really the one to blame for it? If so, then you're also suggesting some parents are poor at parenting for not giving their children every single item those children put on their lists for Santa Claus.
 

DEFchenkOE

Well-Known Member
Feb 13, 2006
10,527
8,052
People always go on about whl being a small pitch, teams playing a 9 man defence etc but what about Arsenal at the old library? I don't know the dimensions of their pitch but everyone seemed to acknowledge it being tiny, and I can't imagine too many teams going there and playing open football either. Yet it still didn't stop the likes of Wright, Anelka, Henry getting multiple chances a game because they moved the ball quick with one and two touches. We don't do this enough.
 
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