carpee
Passing on the spurs tradition to my son Ozzie
- Jun 9, 2003
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I think he is a better winger than full back
Bale is a winger, no he is a full back etc. blah blah blah
- Thread starter carpee
- Start date
I think he is a better winger than full back
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
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But I am not talking about personal opinions. It is not my opinnion that Bale is a full-back, or that he is a better full-back than a winger. It is a fact.
Simple:
Bale says he is a full-back;
Bale says he sees his future as a full-back;
Bale practices on his defending in training to make himself a better full-back;
'Arry says he see him predominantly as a full-back;
'Arry says he see his future predominantly at full-back;
'Arry has him practice defending in training to make him a more effective full-back;
The Club list him officially as a full-back (check the OS).
Now, at no popint in those seven statements of fact have I said 'I think', or 'I want' or 'I believe'. They are seven facts coming directly from the people who matter, saying that he is a full-back...he can also play on the wing, and play there very effectively, but that is a different issue. The fact (FACT) which I stated in my original post, is that he is BY DEFINITION a full-back...i.e. the people who matter definie him as a full-back. I wasn't responding to anyone's post who siad that their opinion was that Bale would be a better winger than full-back; or that we should convert Bale from a full-back to a winger. I was specifically responding to those, who despite this being explained to them several times, still persist in referring to Bale as though he were BY DEFINITION a winger, when he is BY DEFINITION a full-back. Get it:shrug:
guy
SC Supporter
- May 31, 2007
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Sorry SP but can you please just leave the Bale debate alone!!!!
Everyone has their own opinion on which he's best position is, your posts (almost rants!) are not going to change anyones opinions.
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
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This just shows that you have neither read nor understood my posts (rants:roll
, because I am not discussing opinions. In fact my intransigence on this comes only from the fact that quite a while ago some posters said Bale WAS a winger, and I explained to them that there is a difference between what they want and what the definition applied to him at the moment (full-back) is. If everyone just accepted that he is a full-back who can play on the wing and then stated their opinions I wouldn't even have got involved. In fact, I asked the MODS at the time to make it a sticky, so I wouldn;t have to keep repeating myself (often to the same people), who are given this factually explanation and then still insist on saying "Bale IS a winger", rather than "I would prefer Bale to play on the wing".And the sad fact is that after explaining this dozens of times you feel compelled to demonstrate that you still haven't understood it. And then you blame me for getting frustrated:shrug:
I repeat, I have no object to anyone elsse's OPINION as to what his best position is, and am not concerned that I can't change their OPINIONS. But he is by definiition a fulol-back who can play on the wing, so when folk say he is a winger as though it were a fact in order to defend their argument that he SHOULD be a winger, they are being factually incorrect, and I have every right ot point that out.
Don;t like that, tough...don't accuse me of ranting or trying to change other peoples opinions. Try and read my post and understand it, eh!
guy
SC Supporter
- May 31, 2007
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This just shows that you have neither read nor understood my posts (rants:roll
And the sad fact is that after explaining this dozens of times you feel compelled to demonstrate that you still haven't understood it. And then you blame me for getting frustrated:shrug:
I repeat, I have no object to anyone elsse's OPINION as to what his best position is, and am not concerned that I can't change their OPINIONS. But he is by definiition a fulol-back who can play on the wing, so when folk say he is a winger as though it were a fact in order to defend their argument that he SHOULD be a winger, they are being factually incorrect, and I have every right ot point that out.
Don;t like that, tough...don't accuse me of ranting or trying to change other peoples opinions. Try and read my post and understand it, eh!
FAARRRRKK I knew including the word opinion would get you!
mg:
Bale doesnt have a defined position, have you not noticed he's played the last what 5 or 6 games as a midfielder???? He can play both, thats my OPINION, thats obviously Bale's OPINION and Harry's OPINION too, otherwise he wouldnt have played half his spurs games there. Why is he defined as a LB? He's defined as a left sided footballer. Why does it matter anyway.
And no, I dont read your posts anymore on this subject because every bloody one says exactly the same thing!!! BORING, MOVE ON
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
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FAARRRRKK I knew including the word opinion would get you!
Bale doesnt have a defined position, have you not noticed he's played the last what 5 or 6 games as a midfielder???? He can play both, thats my OPINION, thats obviously Bale's OPINION and Harry's OPINION too, otherwise he wouldnt have played half his spurs games there. Why is he defined as a LB? He's defined as a left sided footballer. Why does it matter anyway.
And no, I dont read your posts anymore on this subject because every bloody one says exactly the same thing!!! BORING, MOVE ON
Bale has a defined position just like everyone else, it is full-back, hence the number of quotes from himself and 'Arry saying it is. he can also play on the wing...but that doesn't stop him from being a full-back. In fact, until himself and the club say he is now a winger, and play him there regularly, he will be a full-back. Just like Kaboul is a central defender who has played the last two games as a full-back, and before that in central defence...is your pee brain following this:shrug:
Hence, the lengthy argument, over and over again, (that I didn't want to have to make - hence asking the MODS for a sticky), to explain to the less cerebral members of the site (that's you), that an opinion about where Bale should play (which we are all entitled to) is not in any way related to the way in which he, the manager and the club define him, which is as a full-back - and therefore, de facto, he IS a full-back. For anyone, therefore, to say he IS a winger, as opposed to saying they would like him to be a winger (a perfectly reasonable opinion) is in fact erroneous.
It is an academic argument...if you don't have the wit for academic arguments then I suggest you keep out of them, and leave the adults to talk in peace (I don't know, couldn't you go play with a pop-gun or something - all fatal injuries would be an added bonus).
It started because somebody said Bale IS a winger and then insulted (INSULTED) other members of the site for actually pointing out the FACT that he is a full-back. I feel it is only right to clarify these matters. If you do not, then may you forever live in a World where matters are not clarified, and ensuing violence offers you a painful entrance and exit to each and every day.
Here is hoping you never have to read one of my posts again...as I will surely never have to read yours as my next act is to give you a -1 for being a retard and then put you on IGNORE.
guy
SC Supporter
- May 31, 2007
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How are your posts about Bale at all witty? You repeat the same shit ad nauseum. Im pretty certain I could find 20 posts of yours from the last 2 months all very long, which repeat the same thing over and over. There's nothing academic about it.:stupid:
And you talk about being an adult and then resort to childish insults, hmmm big man
BuffaloSid
Active Member
- May 23, 2004
- 1,533
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cant help thinking that those quotes and FACTS are a little out of date.;-
Bale has played his best games as a wide midfielder
Bale has played most of his recent games as a wide midfielder
Bale looks and plays like a world class wide midfielder
Bale has looked vulnerable as a fullback
Players develope and change positions( Hudd CB to CM, Sol winger to CB..sure Bale came here as a full back but hes proven to be more useful to the team as a wide midfielder.
very sorry if this doent fit in with how you would like Krancjar or modric to play but recent displays have Bale playing very very well as a wide midfielder and not very well as a fullback. FACT
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
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But I'm not talking about where Bale has played or how he has performed.
I keep on saying it is an academic argument. It is a bout the use of langauge. And that is what I do. it is what I am trained to do. And the FACT that in numerous interviews, and on the OS, Bale is categorised as a full-back. So, when someone said, a while ago, that he WAS a winger (n.b. not I would like him to be a inger - which is opinion and therefore perfectly valid, and something I can either say I agree with or disagree with, but not that it is wrong), I had/have every right to say it is wrong.
He is a full-back who can also play on the wing. I am open to describing him as a left-sided player. If the club decide to transform him into a winger permanently it is fine with me, as he is a terrific player, either way. But at this precise moment he is a full-back who can also play on the wing, and has done so (primarily due to an injury crisis). have to totally disagree with your asseessment that he has not played well at full-back (though, as it is an opinion, you are entitled to hold it, no matter how wrong I think it is).
Nothing you say does (or even can change the FACT that he is a full-back who can also play on the wing).
Basically, members who don't actually understand how academic debate works, or how langugae is used, have confplated two seperate issues:
1) The argument I am making, which is an academic arguement about the use of language - which it is literally impossible for them to be correct on;
2) The right they have to state their opinion, which I have never denied, or attempted to infringe upon.
Sadly, when it comes to people like Guy, they usually prejudice themselves by saying they havn't actually read my posts - which seems a bit strange, but, okay.
But none of this alters the fact that I am arguing point 1, which it is literally impossible for me to be wrong on, and they have misinterpreted that as me arguing point 2, which is not the case, and reacted with outrage as someone who is attempting to deny them their (apparently obsessive) sacred right to hold an opinion.
I do hope you are keeping up with this.
I have never said folk can't believe that Bale would make a better winger than full-back (which is an opinion, and not something I wish to touch upon);
I have never said that folk can't aspire to see this opinion converted into reality (which is also an opinion, and not something I wish to debate);
I have never said that players can't permanently change their positions - believe me, at my age, and the amount of time I have been watching football (coupled with the fact that I have an obscenely massive memory and the qualifications to suggest I am more than a little intelligent), that would be highly illogical.
The problem is I have stated these things several times in numerous posts. It is just that the people who have claimed these are the very things I am doing usually coincide with the ones who state that they haven't actually read my posts.
Hey, I'm easy, if you don;t have an acedmic bent, doesn't bother me. But it doesn when folk who clearly don't understand what I am saying (usually because they don't seem to have a clear understanding of the difference between fact and opinion), decide that I am trying to deny them their right of opinion, andreact with outrage to something I ahven't actually said.
Just for the record, I will state my position 1 more time:
Every player is designated a position in the team.
Gomes is a goalkeeper. He was once a striker (believe it or not - until the age of 19), but was then converted into a goalkeeper. UNtil he was converted into a goalkeeper, he reamined a striker - YES? So, if someone had felt like he would make a good goalkeeper (which is, of course, an opinion), and had said so, it wold have been a statement of opinion, and in no way would it have affected the FACT that at the time of making that statement, Gomes was still a striker. Yes, this has happened with many players: I myself pionted out to other members of this forum that THudd began his career as a central-defender. It may be that a player can, and frequently does, play in more than one position - but in these cases, they still usually have their primary position. At WHL for instance, we saw Fergie putting Fletcher (a central midfielder, by designation), on the wing - that did not mean Fletcher had usddenly been transferred into 'designatio: winger'. It meant he is a versatile player, who for reasons of tactics or injury, can fill in at other positions. As I explained to Guy, and, sadly, you don't seem to have taken the hint, Kaboul is categorised as a full-back - YES? And yet, in the lst two games he has played as a right-back? And the last time he played before that, he played in central midfield. Is anyone who is failing miserably to understand the nature of this debate claiming that Kaboul is now a right-back/central midfielder? NO! So, clearly, a player is not 'designated' by his most recent games - he is designated by himself and his club. In the case of Bale we have this situation:
He has said he is full-back;
He has stated that he sees his future as a full-back;
He has stated that he has ben training to improve his defensive capabilities to make himself a better full-back;
'Arry has stated that Bale is primarily a full-back;
'Arry has stated that he sees Bale's future primarily at full-back;
'Arry has stated that he has been working on the defensive side of Bale's game to make him a better full-back;
The OS lists Bale as a defender (go see for youself, it is true).
Now, at the time when Bale had played every single game since his return at full-back (and incredibly brilliantly, some seem to forget this), a poster said "Bale IS a winger", (this is a statement of fact) Now if that poster had said "I would like to see Bale converted into a winger", it would have been a statement of opinion, and hence something I can either agree with or disagree with, but not something I can say is wrong. But that was not what was said. So, I pointed out that in view of the 7 statements I presented, which are all facts, it should be taken as fact that Bale is a full-back, who can also play on the wing. I said it was wrong to say he IS a winger. I never said "you may not hold an opinion that you would prefer him to be a winger". I did not say "If you hold an opinion that you would prefer him to be a winger you are wrong" - as that is a matter of opinion, and therefore something I can agree or disagree with, but not something I can say is wrong. I then went on to explain that, if 'Arry played Bale regularly on the wing, and both the player, and the manager, issued statements that Bale was now a winger, he would be a winger. At this time it would be factually correct to say that Bale IS winger who was once a full-back, and can still play there. At that hypothetical time, it would then become wrong of m, or any else, to say he is a full-back. Just like it would be wrong now to say Gomes IS a striker, although he once was. But that will never alter the fact that at the time the arguement arose, and even now, Bale is still officially designated a full-back...and so it is factually incorrect to say he is a winger.
I then explained that, even if Bale went on to play some games on the wing, it would not prevent the arguement I have presented above as being 100% corerct. And yet as soon as Bale played some games on the wing, there were posts saying, "You see, Bale is a winger". Which just seems academically, like, about Grade 8. And now, people like you, who weren't even privy to the original argument, are jumping on board and telling me that Bale IS a winger, just because he has played a few games there, and failing to realise either the academic nature of the argument, or that fact that it arose when Bale wasn't even playing on the wing - no matter that the fact he has played a few games on the wing due to an injury crisis doesn't, as yet, mean that he is definitively a winger.
What makes it even more hilarious is that folk are stating outright that they haven't read my posts, and staing I have said things I haven't said and not said things I have said - and even ignoriing it when I copy/paste to show that they are wrong.
They then wander why I insult them, and put them on ignore:shrug:
So, okay, this is what I am going to do, because I am absolutely sick of this:
I will ask the MODS (or a more cerebral nature - some of them have academic qualification, two) to read this, and if I am absolutely wrong, I will surrender my membership.
Good enough for you?
nailsy
SC Supporter
- Jul 24, 2005
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SP - Academically you're right, Bale is classed as a LB by the club so by definition he is a left back. The problem is most people on here aren't going to get into discussions about language. When they see Bale play where he did against City they see one of the best wingers in the league so they say 'see he's a winger'. They aren't saying the club is wrong in their definition of him, just to them they think that's his best position.
Judging by the way Harry compared him to Ashley Cole before the Chelsea match I think we'll be seeing him play there next season.
Judging by the way Harry compared him to Ashley Cole before the Chelsea match I think we'll be seeing him play there next season.
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
- 32,568
- 10,280
1) Thank you.
2) But I have said, here and elsewhere, if they don't understand the nature of the argument, or don't want to get into that arguement, why not just accept what is blatantly obvious and switch to saying "My opinion is", rather than "he is".
As I've said, I actually asked the MODS to make a sticky on this, as I could see it running and running, across sevferal threads, and I really didn't want it to...and if you scroll back, you will see 'Guy' actually having a go at me (ME FFS) because I am daring to be right on several different threds. As I also said, they are popping up on various threads saying "see Bale IS a winger". it is the one thing I didn't want to happen, I find it immensely taxing, and at the same time I'm getting the blame for it.
And it seems like a really sorry state of affairs that the price of participating in a forum is that foklk are allowed to repeatedly say something which is factually incorrect, and if you try and correct them you get 'hazed' (okay, maybe not hazed
). But it is like, after stating in every single post that I am not saying folk can hold an opinion about Bale contrary to mine, I have gone down in mytho-history as "SP, the great trampler of the liberties of SC". Really, though, it is very frustrating. I've ttried to cater for the fact that not everyone is as academically able as I am, or, dare I say, intelligent, so I have tried to explain that I understand that Bale is playing on the wing at the moment and that makes them think he is a winger. But they still keep coming back with more and more and more.I ask you, if people are misquoting you from posts even when you show that that is so, and at the very same moment stating that they haven't actually read your posts, what on earth is the point in participating - you can't even neg-rep them for doing something blatantly retarded as they just neg-rep you back, tit-for-tat, which surely just perversts the whole point of having a repping system altogerther - so what is the point?
Adam456
Well-Known Member
- Jul 1, 2005
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StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
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Well, obviously, I'm not actually treating a post on a football forum as an academic article I am going to be graded, on, am I!
I didn't ask amyone to grade, and to take into account the amount of typos and the use of spacing.
In fact, the main reason for my frustration, is that the whole process is taking up the whole of me time - explaining more and more succinctly, for people who are actually admitting that they don't actually read my posts. It therefore defies logic to suggest I take even more time, to to make the spacing perfect and eliminate typos.
Just on the content, am I correct or not?
For the record, are you academically qualified, or just being facetious?
Oh, well done, Adam, laughing at the facetiousness, but ignoring the fact that he is agreeing that you have been wrong from the start of this debate that you just will not let go, even though you are wrong (though you at least have the grace to do it with good humour).
tommyt
SC Supporter
- Jul 22, 2005
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I do agree with you on the content of your arguement SP - whole-heartedly in fact. I was trying to inject a touch of humour.
If you are getting frustrated by the quality and logic of individual posts i'd suggest taking a minute to think how important this is to you and to others.
Whether I am academically qualified (as you put it) or merely being facetious in neither here nor there - it has no significance.
If you are getting frustrated by the quality and logic of individual posts i'd suggest taking a minute to think how important this is to you and to others.
Whether I am academically qualified (as you put it) or merely being facetious in neither here nor there - it has no significance.
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
- 32,568
- 10,280
Sorry, Tommy - but I've tried to inject humour on numerous occasions, it hasn't been very effective. As you will from my post, above, I recognise that Adam has always managed to be good humoured, frustrating that I find it that he has never understood that all I am asking him to do is to stop saying 'Bale IS a winger' and to start saying "I would prefer it if Bale were converted to a winger". But I've given this formula several times, and 'they' (the amprphous blob mob), still keep on popping up on numerous threads saying 'Bale IS a winger'. Am I wrong, is this Rocket Science?
I was curious as to whether you were academically qualified (or merely being facetious) - obviously the humourous adjunct passed you by.
No, I'm not getting frustrated by the quality and logic of individual posts - normally I just ignore them. But when they are individual posts of folk who want to debate and then say you have said things you haven't said and haven't said things you have said, all the while admitting that they haven't actually read your posts, it is frustrating.
And, as I said, I specifically asked the MODS for a sticky to prevent this running over several threads, and I never start it up, merely respond to others continuing to be wrong. Then posters, like Guy, pop-up and accuse me of going-on-and-on over several threads - whilst admitting to not actually reading my posts. Are you telling me you wouldn't find that frustrating?
WhiteHart4Ever
Well-Known Member
- Feb 18, 2004
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Dude, where did you get your academic training and in what discipline? I'm guessing physics maybe as you seem to be very uncritical about the established rules (i.e. Bale is a fullback because the OS states it). If you want to keep it in academic terms the phenomenon being discussed is not the title on the OS or what Harry said in an interview, it's the actual real life question of whether Bale is a fullback or a winger. Based on actual occurence (that is, where he plays) I'd say he's both. From an academic perspective your argument that Bale is a full back exclusively is repeatedly falsified by him playing LM in a number of games, in fact in the majority of games lately..He might be a fullback, but he is a winger as well. And that's a fact!
:hello:
StartingPrice
Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
- Feb 13, 2004
- 32,568
- 10,280
Think you've read too much into too little, there, actually.
I have stated several times that I understand that he is a player who can play on the wing as well as at full-back. I have stated several times that I have no problem with describing him as a left-sided player who can play on either wing or defence.
Keeping it in strictly academic terms the phenomenon being discussed IS how he is designated by himself, his manager and his club. I have explained all of this in the lengthy post you have (uncritically) quoted: Each player has one primary position, they be able to cover/play in other positions, but they have one primary position. Bale's primary position according to himself, his manager and his club, is full-back. Therefore, to go back to the original argument, when a poster said "Bale IS a winger" (at a time when , since retuurning to the club he had only played at full-back), I responded that he is actually a full-back who (and this is an important bit, as it seems to be the only real content to your post, and I have already countered it in the post you quote) can also play on the wing. So, from the outset I have been acknowledging that he can also play on the wing, whilst stating that his primary position, as delineated by himself, his manager and his club, is at full-back. The most accurate descriptor for him, therefor, as I have given several times, is a full-back who can also play on the wing. indeed, and I hope Adam at least will be honest enough to conced this, I have stated several times that i believe he can be a very good winger. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is that when his primary designation is full-back (are you disputing that?), anyone should state "Bale IS a winger". Not, 'Bale can play on the wing' - which I, myself, have said several times, or 'bale would make a better winger than full-back' - which is a matter of opinion, and therefore, debate - I don't have a problem with any of this.
I have explained all of this in the thread you are quoting, seems to me the onyl way you could have missed it is if you skim read the post, with one eye, at least, in trying (for your own edification) to decipher which academic discipline I attained qualifcations in (on which, nby the way, you are way out).
TBH (and I don't mean this in an antaganistic way), it may help if you read the whole post again...because it seems to me that you have read the intro and then determined that you were going to sho that it was possible to argue academically against it, and then skim-read the rest. I'm guessing you are a philosopher?
