Rose needs to go!

tiger666 · Sep 4, 2013

TaoistMonkey said:
To be honest, the only reason Rose is playing is because Benny's upset AVB. There would be no chance of him starting otherwise. That you have to agree with surely??

Let's not rewrite history. Benny was awful plenty of times as well.

TaoistMonkey · Sep 4, 2013

tiger666 said:
Let's not rewrite history. Benny was awful plenty of times as well.

And yet probably one of the best left backs we've ever had.

tiger666 · Sep 4, 2013

TaoistMonkey said:
And yet probably one of the best left backs we've ever had.

Was he being hailed that after 3 games?

Mr Pink · Sep 4, 2013

TaoistMonkey said:
To be honest, the only reason Rose is playing is because Benny's upset AVB. There would be no chance of him starting otherwise. That you have to agree with surely??

No I don't.

AVB doesn't like Ekotto as a player full stop. Benny is technically very good, but I don't think he was ever going to appeal to AVB. Too lax and not tactically aware enough, not enough grit and intensity - that's why AVB doesn't rate him, IMO anyway. I really liked Benny by the way.

If AVB had not been convinced by giving Rose a shot this year we definitely would of bought another LB. Not easy to come buy, but I'm certain we would of gone for another one. Yes we tried for Coentrao, failing that AVB was happy enough to give Rose the shot.

Don't think that connection is remotely accurate IMHO.

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

ItsBoris said:
Is that because his name is Danny Rose, not Danielle Rosinho?

Nacer Chadli is getting a hard time already, maybe Neil Chapman wouldn't? :LOL:

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

Mr Pink said:
No I don't.

AVB doesn't like Ekotto as a player full stop. Benny is technically very good, but I don't think he was ever going to appeal to AVB. Too lax and not tactically aware enough, not enough grit and intensity - that's why AVB doesn't rate him, IMO anyway. I really liked Benny by the way.

If AVB had not been convinced by giving Rose a shot this year we definitely would of bought another LB. Not easy to come buy, but I'm certain we would of gone for another one. Yes we tried for Coentrao, failing that AVB was happy enough to give Rose the shot.

Don't think that connection is remotely accurate IMHO.

That is surely Rose! Assou-Ekotto was at least aware of his surroundings, Cruyff-turning the fuck out of players every week, Rose actually seems to panic a lot, he has only ever looked comfortable when he has had a head start against a player with half his pace.

Mr Pink · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
I don't know if I trust AVB's judgement in that area. I think AVB's massive flaw is identifying defensive problems. The guy preferred to play Naughton who is clearly uncomfortable at left back over BAE probably because of some vendetta. I know BAE was injured for a while last year, but there were long periods when he wasn't. I also think AVB has gotten himself into a hole by keeping Dawson as captain. He should've had the bollocks to give it to someone who fits the system better, but he hasn't and now we will find Dawson is more often than not the starting CB, when we have 3 other CBs who seemingly fit the high line better.

I have a few Sunderland supporting friends who absolutely rave about him and want him back. I was keen to get him back and have a look at him but he looks exactly the same player who played against Villa and got himself sent off. We laughed when Neville said David Luiz looked like he was being controlled by a kid with a playstation, but Rose is definitely that type of player when it comes to not only his positioning, but his lack of control over his crossing.

Again three games. And for me he looks an improved player than the one we saw season before last. The point is, lets give him a chance before we start deciding he's definitely not good enough, three games isn't a sufficient amount of time to form a definite judgement, it just isn't it.

You may go on about AVB and his flaw in identifying defensive problems, but the fact of the matter is we've been more solid than ever. We've conceded one goal in five games so far this season. He's certainly doing something right in this respect.

Rose's crossing needs to improve, but he's done quite well so far. I like that he's gritty and tenacious, great attributes for this League and he's linked up well with Chadli at times as well.

Way too premature for those who are writing him off already.

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

ItsBoris said:
You're being ridiculous if you think AVB can't identify a defensive liability. It was the guy's fucking job for years under Mourinho! That's literally what he did - analyze opponents and identify weaknesses. You think he can't spot them in his own team, with the added benefit of watching them in training every day?

I'm just going by what I've seen at Tottenham mate. Set piece organisation, particularly at the back end of last year was shit and left back was never addressed last year. We had our best centreback playing there far too often and Naughton is just woeful there. I don't go by former CV, I g by practical application on the pitch.

TaoistMonkey · Sep 4, 2013

Mr Pink said:
No I don't.

AVB doesn't like Ekotto as a player full stop. Benny is technically very good, but I don't think he was ever going to appeal to AVB. Too lax and not tactically aware enough, not enough grit and intensity - that's why AVB doesn't rate him, IMO anyway. I really liked Benny by the way.

If AVB had not been convinced by giving Rose a shot this year we definitely would of bought another LB. Not easy to come buy, but I'm certain we would of gone for another one. Yes we tried for Coentrao, failing that AVB was happy enough to give Rose the shot.

Don't think that connection is remotely accurate IMHO.

ok. I think Benny isn't playing because of his attitude off the pitch.

Guess we will never know though.

ItsBoris · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
Nacer Chadli is getting a hard time already, maybe Neil Chapman wouldn't?

Oh that would be ugly lol. I think if we signed someone named Neil Chapman for 8 million, we'd have a thread about how shit he is before he even kicked a ball haha.

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

Mr Pink said:
Again three games. And for me he looks an improved player than the one we saw season before last. The point is, lets give him a chance before we start deciding he's definitely not good enough, three games isn't a sufficient amount of time to form a definite judgement, it just isn't it.

You may go on about AVB and his flaw in identifying defensive problems, but the fact of the matter is we've been more solid than ever. We've conceded one goal in five games so far this season. He's certainly doing something right in this respect.

Rose's crossing needs to improve, but he's done quite well so far. I like that he's gritty and tenacious, great attributes for this League and he's linked up well with Chadli at times as well.

Way too premature for those who are writing him off already.

Four games if you count Tblisi, where he made an unbelievable error with nobody around him which resulted in them getting a chance out of nothing.

ItsBoris · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
I'm just going by what I've seen at Tottenham mate. Set piece organisation, particularly at the back end of last year was shit and left back was never addressed last year. We had our best centreback playing there far too often and Naughton is just woeful there. I don't go by former CV, I g by practical application on the pitch.

And our set piece defending was woeful under Harry too, so maybe the correct conclusion is that it doesn't have so much to do with the manager?

And that's not the point anyway, the point was whether AVB could identify a defensively weak player.

Mr Pink · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
That is surely Rose! Assou-Ekotto was at least aware of his surroundings, Cruyff-turning the fuck out of players every week, Rose actually seems to panic a lot, he has only ever looked comfortable when he has had a head start against a player with half his pace.

Cruyff-turning the fuck out of the people without the ball? lol....I'm talking about off the ball. Engaging the space/player and when the opposition have the ball. Concentration was a problem too for him at times.

I loved Benny by the way, and I loved the drop of the shoulder etc....he was technically excellent but he did switch off at times if we are being completely honest.

Mr Pink · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
Four games if you count Tblisi, where he made an unbelievable error with nobody around him which resulted in them getting a chance out of nothing.

ok...a mistake Kendall, it happens. The point is, its still early doors and by in large he's done pretty well.

Nice goal to in that game.

Quacky Mouse · Sep 4, 2013

MR_BEN said:
Not good enough. By a bloody long way.

Never has been.

Never will be.

Piss poor.

you need to go pal

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

ItsBoris said:
And our set piece defending was woeful under Harry too, so maybe the correct conclusion is that it doesn't have so much to do with the manager?

And that's not the point anyway, the point was whether AVB could identify a defensively weak player.

He wanted to shift Dawson out by all accounts, now he's still his captain. I think his first assessment was correct and Dawson is not right for his style (I love Dawson by the way, but not with a high line), but he seems to have gotten attached to the lad. So there's still question marks there for me.

ItsBoris · Sep 4, 2013

Kendall said:
He wanted to shift Dawson out by all accounts, now he's still his captain. I think his first assessment was correct and Dawson is not right for his style (I love Dawson by the way, but not with a high line), but he seems to have gotten attached to the lad. So there's still question marks there for me.

Who was/is the alternative? Last season it was Gallas...

Kendall · Sep 4, 2013

ItsBoris said:
Who was/is the alternative? Last season it was Gallas...

Understood, I don't think I can begrudge him playing Dawson last year, but now we have 3 other CBs and he's still captain. I think the captaincy should've gone to Jan or Lloris this year, they are the only 1st picks in the squad.

BillyWhizz · Sep 4, 2013

Benny was awful when he first joined us, Rose has been average but not that bad. Maybe he just needs to feel comfortable playing for a team at our level, so I hope the crowd gets behind him and helps him settle in.

I don't see how his past is that much different than Walker, who got our immediate support when thrown in the team. Neither were originally fullbacks. Walker was at QPR for half a season, and then a struggling Villa side. Rose just spent a full season at Sunderland.
I think he has better technique and first touch than Walker, but gives away the same amount of needless fouls. Both are quick and strong, but both still need to learn certain aspects of defending. You could even say the same about Rafael at man yoo, most young fullbacks these days aren't great defenders.
He needs some work yes and I wish we'd have bought someone else to replace Benny but he'll get his chance now so lets get behind the lad, create him a song to give him a boost and let him and AVB get on with it.

Re. a song, maybe some sort of play on Seal's 'Kiss From a Rose'?

Francis Gibbs · Sep 4, 2013

rose could end up being ok but no way should be the starting lb in a team chasing top 4.
As an understudy yes but that's why it's so disappointing we didn't sign a specialist lb in the window.

Benny was a good footballer who was too often an average defender

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