Tottenham's tactics too cautious to win title, says Robbie Savage

idontgetit · Nov 6, 2013

Negative tactics: not trying to score goals. Simple as. High line, deep line, parked bus etc are all secondary factors. I wouldn't say that our tactics are totally negative but just that scoring goals appears to be a secondary or tertiary concern to AVB next to abstract things such as possession or territory and that mentality appears to have been transferred to the players. I don't see many forwards coming on as subs during the game looking excited to get a chance to fill their boots. There's no murderous intent from the start to cut the other side up. There's possession, pressing, passing etc etc and our intent builds up and builds up as time runs down until we score or the whistle goes.

And fuck me I don't even want to talk about what happens to our mentality once we do score.

NEVILLEB · Nov 6, 2013

Let's play Lamela and Eriksen upfront with Soldado and see if it works.

CowInAComa · Nov 6, 2013

idontgetit said:
Negative tactics: not trying to score goals. Simple as. High line, deep line, parked bus etc are all secondary factors. I wouldn't say that our tactics are totally negative but just that scoring goals appears to be a secondary or tertiary concern to AVB next to abstract things such as possession or territory and that mentality appears to have been transferred to the players. I don't see many forwards coming on as subs during the game looking excited to get a chance to fill their boots. There's no murderous intent from the start to cut the other side up. There's possession, pressing, passing etc etc and our intent builds up and builds up as time runs down until we score or the whistle goes.

And fuck me I don't even want to talk about what happens to our mentality once we do score.

Thats it. Murderous intent. We never look like we want to do the opponent harm. At the moment we want to do everything 'right', and if goals come from it , bonus.

Wrong attitude. Weak mentality being instilled.

TheSecretNonFootballer · Nov 6, 2013

idontgetit said:
We use the high line for possession stats and defence. We hardly use it in an attacking sense, trying to turn the ball over high up the pitch and hit out of position defences. Possession without intent is meaningless to me, I swear we look as tired trying to hold on to the ball as teams look chasing it down

Saying that we play a high line to get possession stats is ridiculous.

"We lost, Andre"
"Yeah but look at that possession! PWHOOOAAAAR. Rub my beard!"

CowInAComa · Nov 6, 2013

NEVILLEB said:
Let's play Lamela and Eriksen upfront with Soldado and see if it works.

Its not like we have anything to lose.

idontgetit · Nov 6, 2013

dagraham said:
I have no problem with dominating the ball but only if we can do something with it. As you say, those Arsenal and Utd teams could both dominate in the opponents half (with the required penetration after working the oppostion to create the spaces) and hit on the counter attack. At the moment we do neither.

I understand what your saying about two strikers but it doesn't have to be a bog standard 4-4-2. As you say, the success of playing one striker depends on tactics and personnel. For me, Soldado is simply the wrong type of striker to deploy this system in the PL and I don't believe it will greatly improve in this regard even when we gel.

As for the box presence, having a front line (whether one or two strikers) which can hold the ball up is key imo to utilizing the late runners into the box.

AVB does deserve time and patience and while we are getting results its not a major issue, but there are things like off the ball movement (as a team not just one or two players) which I expected to see improve in his tenure which I simply haven't seen in the time he's been here.

I think the problem is not so much that we need a second striker on board but that we're not using a current system properly. When we have the ball our two wide-forwards should really be playing as extra strikers whilst the fullbacks get up the pitch and take over the creative and attacking play in the wing positions. Further to that we should also have the likes of Holtby/Erikson and Paulinho/Dembele making late runs in to the box from deep. 3 Strikers and runners from deep should be more that enough to overwhelm defences but what we have at the moment in reality is one small isolated striker in the pocket of two cb's, a no.10 chocked out of the game by two dm's and two wide forwards playing more like inverted wingers, getting late ball and having to run at the defence instead of receiving early through balls in behind.

CowInAComa · Nov 6, 2013

TheSecretNonFootballer said:
Saying that we play a high line to get possession stats is ridiculous.

"We lost, Andre"
"Yeah but look at that possession! PWHOOOAAAAR. Rub my beard!"

No goals conceded is the aim. Achieved via monopoly of the ball.

Dont risk possession if there is a safe pass on. Thats why we dont see throughball, they have a very high turnover rate.

idontgetit · Nov 6, 2013

TheSecretNonFootballer said:
Saying that we play a high line to get possession stats is ridiculous.

"We lost, Andre"
"Yeah but look at that possession! PWHOOOAAAAR. Rub my beard!"

Like he needs an excuse to rub that sexy beard

But yeah I think (obviously don't know!) that he put's a lot of emphasis on possession based on the logic that when you have the ball you can score and the opposition can not. We're not hitting teams hard after we turn the ball over so you can't say that's what he uses the high line for. It's just to turn the ball over and thus possession and in his mind a more likely win. Which is only partly right.

dagraham · Nov 6, 2013

idontgetit said:
I think the problem is not so much that we need a second striker on board but that we're not using a current system properly. When we have the ball our two wide-forwards should really be playing as extra strikers whilst the fullbacks get up the pitch and take over the creative and attacking play in the wing positions. Further to that we should also have the likes of Holtby/Erikson and Paulinho/Dembele making late runs in to the box from deep. 3 Strikers and runners from deep should be more that enough to overwhelm defences but what we have at the moment in reality is one small isolated striker in the pocket of two cb's, a no.10 chocked out of the game by two dm's and two wide forwards playing more like inverted wingers, getting late ball and having to run at the defence instead of receiving early through balls in behind.

Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. The second striker suggestion was more of a way to get Soldado to link up with Ade, which I think could be very fruitful.

As you say, we don't have enough runners from deep. However, the best way to utilize runners from deep positions is from stretching teams or/and from holding the ball up effectively to allow others to come into play. We don't really do either of those things at the moment.

Spurs_Bear · Nov 6, 2013

Bus-Conductor said:
This isn't what people want to hear but we have effectively upgraded almost the whole team in 18 months, I think it will take more than a few weeks, maybe a season, before we settle down, realise our best combinations for the various situations and for those new players (especially the ones to this league) to truly bed in and feel comfortable and confident to express themselves properly.

Good recent example is ManC. We pipped them to 4th after they had started their massive spending spree. Their players needed time to settle and adjust, their new manager also.

Sort of, put apart from Robinho and Tevez, they had signed players like Roque Santa Cruz, Gareth Barry, Joleon Lescott, not players on the same level as we have. My worry is that we keep 'upgrading' and then spend the next season saying it's a transition etc. The danger is also that if a player like Lamela continues to look more unsuited to the premier league than Helder Postiga ever did, he gets the hump and wants to the do the 'Frank' before he gives the second season a chance.

Spurs_Bear · Nov 6, 2013

TheSecretNonFootballer said:
Saying that we play a high line to get possession stats is ridiculous.

"We lost, Andre"
"Yeah but look at that possession! PWHOOOAAAAR. Rub my beard!"

That's what Brent-an Rodgers does. "But we won the passing..."

TheSecretNonFootballer · Nov 6, 2013

CowInAComa said:
No goals conceded is the aim. Achieved via monopoly of the ball.

Dont risk possession if there is a safe pass on. Thats why we dont see throughball, they have a very high turnover rate.

At the moment it would appear to be, but I don't believe that it is the long term plan at all. Certain principles have to be implemented if you want to do well over a long period of time. Defense is the first thing you have to get sorted. That way while you're working on the other things you're not conceding goals. I have no doubt in my mind that the system will develop as time goes on and we shift our focus on to the offensive stuff. While I appreciate that there is enough time in training to work on both defensive and offensive tactics, applying it in match situations is considerably more difficult and has to be done more slowly.

dudu · Nov 6, 2013

CowInAComa said:
No goals conceded is the aim. Achieved via monopoly of the ball.

Dont risk possession if there is a safe pass on. Thats why we dont see throughball, they have a very high turnover rate.

we complete no less than most teams, and i for one think we do attempt quite a few (apart from the Everton game where we created very little in the way of through balls) we just dont pull off anywhere near as many as we should - i recall Hull and Villa games us attempting a fair few and also in the EU cup we have scored a few from Lamela and Holtby threading the ball through with perfection so i will respectfully disagree

edit - just going to post the link to the table which shows we average 3 through balls a game...... 6th in the league.

double edit, that is last years..... this year shows that you Cow are indeed correct and i respectfully apologise and now fully agree

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/25...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013

JUSTINSIGNAL · Nov 6, 2013

CowInAComa said:
No goals conceded is the aim. Achieved via monopoly of the ball.

Dont risk possession if there is a safe pass on. Thats why we dont see throughball, they have a very high turnover rate.

You're obviously right. AVB doesn't want us to score goals all season. He wants us to clean sheet our way to the top four.

Stop being so bloody ridiculous

Rout-Ledge · Nov 6, 2013

In conclusion: fewer long shots, more through balls.

Easy...

mpickard2087 · Nov 6, 2013

I don't think it is just the mentality of how we play that is the problem. Sometimes the lack of basic skills lets us down. Often when we do see the pass and play it, its behind the man or the pace on it is so poor he has to wait an age for it to reach him, or go towards it rather than take it in his stride.

TheSecretNonFootballer · Nov 6, 2013

mpickard2087 said:
I don't think it is just the mentality of how we play that is the problem. Sometimes the lack of basic skills lets us down. Often when we do see the pass and play it, its behind the man or the pace on it is so poor he has to wait an age for it to reach him, or go towards it rather than take it in his stride.

I think that will change as time goes on and players get more accustomed to each others movement. In training you can only learn so much from playing together as the pressures aren't the same so it's in the matches themselves where most of the learning will happen.

Kirito · Nov 6, 2013

dudu said:
we complete no less than most teams, and i for one think we do attempt quite a few (apart from the Everton game where we created very little in the way of through balls) we just dont pull off anywhere near as many as we should - i recall Hull and Villa games us attempting a fair few and also in the EU cup we have scored a few from Lamela and Holtby threading the ball through with perfection so i will respectfully disagree

edit - just going to post the link to the table which shows we average 3 through balls a game...... 6th in the league.

http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/25...amStatistics/England-Premier-League-2012-2013

That was last year. Our through balls per game is now ONE per game.

And amazingly our average through balls away from home is zero lol.

TheSecretNonFootballer · Nov 6, 2013

Kirito said:
That was last year. Our through balls per game is now ONE per game.

Successful through balls or attempted?

Kirito · Nov 6, 2013

TheSecretNonFootballer said:
Successful through balls or attempted?

Attempted.

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