Morgan Schneiderlin

WiganSpur · Jul 21, 2014

Ledleys Knee said:
Poch likes pressing high up the pitch though. That would be Paulinho's role, rather than being a traditional #10.

It's what he did at Southampton - Steven Davies was the high central presser, whilst Lallana was the creative Eriksen player drifting in from wide

I said in another thread it could get the best out of him. Paulinho would be better pressing high up, winning the ball back hounding opposition DMs and getting himself into more dangerous positions with his good off the ball movement. His work rate is also OK contrary to popular opinion. If he's not the best passer but good at getting into the box and decent at finishing then why not try it?

Mr Pink · Jul 21, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
Because that's the only thing we can go by. It's his philosophy. He had a summer transfer window when Soton spent decent money. For example if for some reason Lamela had been at Soton last season I'd have been very surprised if both he and Rodriguez started weekly.

This is true mate but sometimes a manager has to adapt his philosophy. He might not really or he might have to a bit. We'll see.

But one thing is for sure, he views Schneiderlin as essential to implementing it I think. Just think he passes the ball forward quicker than any of our other players in that position.

St José Dominguez · Jul 21, 2014

Syn_13 said:
Actually, I think Holtby is just as much a goal threat if played in that role. I'm not basing it on his late run in the Seattle friendly, although it could be used as an example to show that he can do the late runs that Paulinho likes (or liked to at Corinthians anyway) to do when given license to roam. He's got a pretty decent shot on him, a lot better technique than Paulinho has anyway, who tends to scuff or mis-hit his shots. He's scored a few crackers from outside the box and is a busy little fucker.

I think we'll see a much improved Paulinho under Poch. He got 8 goals in what was a pretty shambolic season tactics wise. With Pochettino's attacking philosophy I'd expect that to be well into double figures. I agree on Holtby though and think he's gonna have a big role too. Hopefully Spurs will be involved in close to 60 games this season.

St José Dominguez · Jul 21, 2014

Mr Pink said:
This is true mate but sometimes a manager has to adapt his philosophy. He might not really or he might have to a bit. We'll see.

But one thing is for sure, he views Schneiderlin as essential to implementing it I think. Just think he passes the ball forward quicker than any of our other players in that position.

Targeting Schneiderlin is evidence of this. He was a key component in Southamptons play and would love us to sign him.

felmani26 · Jul 21, 2014

Mr Pink said:
That's a very fair point - and one I was trying to make initially.

Unless Paulinho ups his effort levels massively I don't see how he can be the 'Davis' and central presser....Holtby maybe.

We'll see. And that's not even touching on the other dynamics...Eriksen etc.

I can only see Paulinho succeeding if he becomes our Lampard - a combative midfielder with a penchant for finding space outside the box and making runs beyond Soldado/Adebayor.

As you said though, he needs to find his mojo as he always seemed to strike me as playing far too much within himself and never getting out of second gear but he has the skill set.

kdem · Jul 21, 2014

felmani26 said:
I can only see Paulinho succeeding if he becomes our Lampard - a combative midfielder with a penchant for finding space outside the box and making runs beyond Soldado/Adebayor.

As you said though, he needs to find his mojo as he always seemed to strike me as playing far too much within himself and never getting out of second gear but he has the skill set.

Don't forget the entire team was run down mentally for almost the entire season. A player in bad spirits is totally different from what you'll see when he's in good spirits. Case in point - Soldado last season, and Soldado at Valencia.

I hope Pochettino can bring everyone up mentally. If so, we have one hell of a squad on our hands. We've been playing moneyball in the transfer market the last few summers and, if all goes well, we can see it all pay off this (and especially next) season...

ItsBoris · Jul 21, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
Because that's the only thing we can go by. It's his philosophy. He had a summer transfer window when Soton spent decent money. For example if for some reason Lamela had been at Soton last season I'd have been very surprised if both he and Rodriguez started weekly.

But out of their front 4, I don't think Pochettino bought any of them. Poch only bought 3 players - Wanyama, Osvaldo, and Lovren. That tells me that he was working with what he had, more than he just so happened to inherit players that suited his philosophy.

DaSpurs · Jul 21, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
Sorry I was at work lol.

We have no evidence that we won't model ourselves on the Soton philosophy and personally think it would be madness not to. It worked extremely well, is the reason Poch got this job. He'll surely continue in his thinking that has been successful so far.

Fair enough, no worries.

Conversely, we have no evidence to suggest he automatically will model on the plan from there. What we do know, is that we have different players, face different defensive schemes (more compact), and have more resources and desirability available for Poch to sculpt a squad more to his plan.

So no, I don't think we can entirely map our expected plans out from a blueprint from a club that finished below us, with considerably less resources, and entirely different players. Similar yes, but I don't think it will be so rigidly close that it results in Poch playing players in positions not conducive to their best assets.

DaSpurs · Jul 21, 2014

Gbspurs said:
You are struggling a little because you are still talking about positions when this formation doesn't really work that way. The way Southampton played with lallana last year he had no position and could do what he pleased across the front line. This would be Eriksens role not stuck "wide".

Edit: this post sounds more patronising than was intended!!

It's merely the best way to communicate the positions to prevent confusion, not that I expect anything rigid or something that resembles the class 4-2-3-1. I'm aware Poch's interpretation of the formation is very different.

However, while Lallana appeared to play a rather "fluid" position along with the rest of their forwards/attacking mids, part of this was due to Lallana's sheer quality and versatility in relation to the rest of Saints' attackers. I think at Spurs, with the other players we have and the resources available to make better surrounding acquisitions, there's no need to forego a better acquisition at left wing for the sake of specifically choosing to play Eriksen away from his favored position.

We'll undoubtedly see some serious experimentation as the season progresses, but I don't expect Eriksen to be planned as our starting left winger, nor as sufficient rationale to forego a better acquisition at left wing considering how many problems we had at the position last season.

St José Dominguez · Jul 21, 2014

DaSpurs said:
It's merely the best way to communicate the positions to prevent confusion, not that I expect anything rigid or something that resembles the class 4-2-3-1. I'm aware Poch's interpretation of the formation is very different.

However, while Lallana appeared to play a rather "fluid" position along with the rest of their forwards/attacking mids, part of this was due to Lallana's sheer quality and versatility in relation to the rest of Saints' attackers. I think at Spurs, with the other players we have and the resources available to make better surrounding acquisitions, there's no need to forego a better acquisition at left wing for the sake of specifically choosing to play Eriksen away from his favored position.

We'll undoubtedly see some serious experimentation as the season progresses, but I don't expect Eriksen to be planned as our starting left winger, nor as sufficient rationale to forego a better acquisition at left wing considering how many problems we had at the position last season.

There is also the hope that we'll be involved in 60 games this season. Whether Eriksen starts 'left' or not the options in squad if we got someone like Griezmann would be fantastic. Also, Pochettino seems like type who'll adapt team dependent on opposition so no way I'm writing off someone like Paulinho having big role.

DaSpurs · Jul 21, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
There is also the hope that we'll be involved in 60 games this season. Whether Eriksen starts 'left' or not the options in squad if we got someone like Griezmann would be fantastic. Also, Pochettino seems like type who'll adapt team dependent on opposition so no way I'm writing off someone like Paulinho having big role.

Yeah I agree with this entirely, it simply seemed as if you were of the camp adamantly proposing Eriksen would be entirely tailored to the Lallana role at Saints, and therefore opposed to making another left wing acquisition. Lallana played no less than ten games in each of the supporting three attacking mid roles for Saints last season, so I've no doubt we'll see a considerable amount of formation fiddling.

I know many like stability, but I like experimentation as it makes opposition planning in the week leading up to the game extremely more difficult for opposing coaches and scouts. IMO, this is more of an advantage than the stability of strictly playing one formation with identified players in each position.

But IMO, an optimal lineup of Eriksen wide left, Paulinho centrally, and foregoing a left wing opposition is a very self-depricating plan; and I very much hope it isn't the case nor believe it will while considering context of the two squads.

St José Dominguez · Jul 21, 2014

DaSpurs said:
Yeah I agree with this entirely, it simply seemed as if you were of the camp adamantly proposing Eriksen would be entirely tailored to the Lallana role at Saints, and therefore opposed to making another left wing acquisition. Lallana played no less than ten games in each of the supporting three attacking mid roles for Saints last season, so I've no doubt we'll see a considerable amount of formation fiddling.

I know many like stability, but I like experimentation as it makes opposition planning in the week leading up to the game extremely more difficult for opposing coaches and scouts. IMO, this is more of an advantage than the stability of strictly playing one formation with identified players in each position.

But IMO, an optimal lineup of Eriksen wide left, Paulinho centrally, and foregoing a left wing opposition is a very self-depricating plan; and I very much hope it isn't the case nor believe it will while considering context of the two squads.

I want a fluid front 4 which I think we'll get. Eriksen would be everywhere no matter where he started. Paulinho would have freedom to get in box which would lead to far more goals. Plus full backs will be pushed far further up pitch. But as said this is against certain opponents. Against others we may want pace on the left or right of forward.

DaSpurs · Jul 21, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
I want a fluid front 4 which I think we'll get. Eriksen would be everywhere no matter where he started. Paulinho would have freedom to get in box which would lead to far more goals. Plus full backs will be pushed far further up pitch. But as said this is against certain opponents. Against others we may want pace on the left or right of forward.

As I mentioned in response to another post, Paulinho's ability to find space in the box is due to not having a marker since he comes from deep. A player in an advanced position will always have a marker near the box if the opposition is doing their jobs. So while I think it perfectly understandable people want that goal threat closer to the goal, I think it would unfortunately yield the opposite effect.

As also mentioned before, he's too poor on the dribble in tight spaces and not incisive enough with his passing to merit taking up that spot from a better attacker, and especially considering how compact the opposing defenses play against us.

St José Dominguez · Jul 22, 2014

DaSpurs said:
As I mentioned in response to another post, Paulinho's ability to find space in the box is due to not having a marker since he comes from deep. A player in an advanced position will always have a marker near the box if the opposition is doing their jobs. So while I think it perfectly understandable people want that goal threat closer to the goal, I think it would unfortunately yield the opposite effect.

As also mentioned before, he's too poor on the dribble in tight spaces and not incisive enough with his passing to merit taking up that spot from a better attacker, and especially considering how compact the opposing defenses play against us.

I'm basing this on Pochettino getting the best from him. In my opinion most of squad were playing far below ability last season. Eriksen despite being our best player has yet to play well at Spurs and Ajax starting from a central position so there's even question mark over that. Pochettino was getting the absolute maximum out of someone like Steven Davis, if he goes that with Paulinho I think he'll surprise a lot of people.

DaSpurs · Jul 22, 2014

St José Dominguez said:
I'm basing this on Pochettino getting the best from him. In my opinion most of squad were playing far below ability last season. Eriksen despite being our best player has yet to play well at Spurs and Ajax starting from a central position so there's even question mark over that. Pochettino was getting the absolute maximum out of someone like Steven Davis, if he goes that with Paulinho I think he'll surprise a lot of people.

I chalk the cause of Eriksen's poor performances with us at CAM due to the fact we were so poor at forward passing from deep this past year. Shockingly low number of forward passes, with a very slow, meandering, horizontal theme of passing. Therefore, it was very easy for opposing teams to either shut down the supply lanes to Eriksen or simply easily close him down personally. With more unpredictable play and better transitional passing from deep, this will open his space to work with up considerably.

It is false he hasn't performed well at Ajax from the position. If you saw his performance against City alone in the Champs League in 2012, you'll know this is simply not true. He has also performed there very well for Denmark, and there's a very good reason why he was the youngest player at the 2010 World Cup while playing in the position.

fecka · Jul 22, 2014

DaSpurs said:
I chalk the cause of Eriksen's poor performances with us at CAM due to the fact we were so poor at forward passing from deep this past year. Shockingly low number of forward passes, with a very slow, meandering, horizontal theme of passing. Therefore, it was very easy for opposing teams to either shut down the supply lanes to Eriksen or simply easily close him down personally. With more unpredictable play and better transitional passing from deep, this will open his space to work with up considerably.

It is false he hasn't performed well at Ajax from the position. If you saw his performance against City alone in the Champs League in 2012, you'll know this is simply not true. He has also performed there very well for Denmark, and there's a very good reason why he was the youngest player at the 2010 World Cup while playing in the position.

He played as a false nine in that particular fixture against City. It's true however that he's a 10 that's had his best performances there before joining us.

DaSpurs · Jul 22, 2014

fecka said:
He played as a false nine in that particular fixture against City. It's true however that he's a 10 that's had his best performances there before joining us.

By official starting position, I suppose that may be true, but I didn't see anything in that performance that reflected the positioning and responsibility of the false 9. The reins of the attack were entirely his, and he received the ball with the back line ahead of him as well as a central teammate ahead of him.

Barry Mead · Jul 22, 2014

WiganSpur said:
I said in another thread it could get the best out of him. Paulinho would be better pressing high up, winning the ball back hounding opposition DMs and getting himself into more dangerous positions with his good off the ball movement. His work rate is also OK contrary to popular opinion. If he's not the best passer but good at getting into the box and decent at finishing then why not try it?

i just don't see Paulinho as a presser, he has a great engine for getting up and down the pitch but his strength is in getting in positions to receive the ball not harrying and pressing players
It would need him to completely change his game imo, maybe losing what he's good at

nicdic · Jul 22, 2014

I think to a certain degree we need to stop judging players by previous form and patterns of play, particularly if that's last season.

All of our midfielders appear to have the right kind of attributes to implement the style Pochettino will want. Just because they didn't play that way last season or haven't before anywhere else doesn't mean they can't. How many of the Southampton players had done it before?

The benefit that Schneiderlin brings more than anything is that already knows the game Pochettino will have us playing, increasing the speed with which the whole team can pick up the new style.

I read an interview with Schneiderlin from early this season I think earlier that highlights some of this. I'll try find it and post it.

bsinghd · Jul 22, 2014

Paulinho played his best games with a holding midfielder; just as he did with Corinthians when he had Ralf as a defensive shield. Paulinho is strong and has the stamina to run all day but I feel he was misused last season. He seemed to try too hard to score sometimes, perhaps because he knew Sherwood would drop him in favour of Bentaleb if he didn't have an exceptional game each time

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