The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE HISTORY OF ITK EDITION 18th June 2015

mikeeegreen · Jun 22, 2015

Xeeleeyid said:
Why would it? I don't actually think we WON'T sign anyone. But our squad quality is high throughout. So i'd rather not sign anyone, rather than make-do with players like Stambouli who will just end up not contributing.

Better to go after players who will undoubtedly improve our starting XI considerably. If that means we have to go after them all summer and miss out, I'm comfortable with that.

I don't feel the need to sign players for the sake of signing players.

Agree with not signing for the sake of it, but our midfield needs drastically upgrading.

Xeeleeyid · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
Agree with not signing for the sake of it, but our midfield needs drastically upgrading.

The midfield was good enough to finish 5th last season. If anything there was maybe a lack of depth which means we were unable to effectively rest Mason & Bentaleb when they were clearly looking knackered. But then we are welcoming Alli and MP will probably run the rule over him, Carroll and Veljkovic in pre-season.

Any player that will drastically upgrade on our existing midfield, is going to be horrendously difficult for us to sign. I just wish people would wake up to this fact.

Do you think Kramer will make us any more likely to improve on a 5th place finish and take out one of City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Man U?

If the answer is no, why not try everything possible to get our number one target in the knowledge that this might mean we miss out on anyone come the season's end?

Trix · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
No not at all, but there is a fine line. We don't want to waste too much time on MS when it's pretty clear he is unattainable. At this moment in time I'd go all out for Kramer, or one of the other Germans (whoever they may be, Bender?) Just please, please, please not Imbula! We will be trying to offload him come next summer, or one after! Waste of 15 mill or whatever is being quoted. Not the player we need at all. The fact we are even so strongly linked to him is strange enough.

As I have posted elsewhere our issues in the past are not the fact that we have missed out on our number one target, it's that we failed to bring in a viable alternative when we have. That is exactly what this completely new scouting and analytical team has been put in place to rectify. Only time will tell if it works as well as we hope, but the fact we have realised this is an area where in the past we have been going wrong, is a huge step in the right direction imo.

mpickard2087 · Jun 22, 2015

SpartanSpur said:
I can see why both ms and soton would want to stall. I do honestly believe he would come if we agreed a fee with soton though. That said we can't dwell on this. If we can do a deal for kramer assuming he's the second choice for Poch and the analysts I'm all for it. All I want is for us to be decisive in filling this key role.

To be honest with whoever we sign, if Poch isn't a bit smarter this season it wont get the best out of any of them. It's only a key role if the set up is right. I rate Schneiderlin, but he isn't so outstanding that he wouldn't suffer if we go in light with a cm2 every single game.

mikeeegreen · Jun 22, 2015

TrickyVilla said:
As I have posted elsewhere our issues in the past are not the fact that we have missed out on our number one target, it's that we failed to bring in a viable alternative when we have. That is exactly what this completely new scouting and analytical team has been put in place to rectify. Only time will tell if it works as well as we hope, but the fact we have realised this is an area where in the past we have been going wrong, is a huge step in the right direction imo.

Agree, it's good that's been recognized. BUT, as you say Trix. Seeing is believing, and a lot of us don't have high hopes when it comes to transfers and Mr Levy. I'm sure we'd all like to be pleasantly surprised, myself included.

mikeeegreen · Jun 22, 2015

TrickyVilla said:
As I have posted elsewhere our issues in the past are not the fact that we have missed out on our number one target, it's that we failed to bring in a viable alternative when we have. That is exactly what this completely new scouting and analytical team has been put in place to rectify. Only time will tell if it works as well as we hope, but the fact we have realised this is an area where in the past we have been going wrong, is a huge step in the right direction imo.

Also on the subject of alternative targets. Two questions...

As previously stated, why on earth are we being linked with Imbula when he is similar to what we have and is very different to MS? (This link alone is what gives me doubts on this subject)

Secondly, if you can say... Who are the other Germans? (The Bender Brothers spring to mind and would be great alternatives to MS) and please tell me that they and Kramer are preferred over Imbula?

longtimespur · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
Agree, it's good that's been recognized. BUT, as you say Trix. Seeing is believing, and a lot of us don't have high hopes when it comes to transfers and Mr Levy. I'm sure we'd all like to be pleasantly surprised, myself included.[/QU

If MS is waiting and hoping for CL team to come in for him then we have to make a decision. A) do we wait and hope none do so we can get MP's #1 or B) do we just forget him and go for the next.

Seems to me that we are waiting and hoping.

longtimespur · Jun 22, 2015

I, personally. hope we get all the #1 players for all the positions we need improving but them I hope my premium bonds come up and also that I'm still alive to see the new stadium!

Xeeleeyid · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
Also on the subject of alternative targets. Two questions...

As previously stated, why on earth are we being linked with Imbula when he is similar to what we have and is very different to MS? (This link alone is what gives me doubts on this subject)

Secondly, if you can say... Who are the other Germans? (The Bender Brothers spring to mind and would be great alternatives to MS) and please tell me that they and Kramer are preferred over Imbula?

Everytime I see Bender Brothers, I have to laugh

mikeeegreen · Jun 22, 2015

Xeeleeyid said:
Everytime I see Bender Brothers, I have to laugh

Haha yeah it is pretty funny. They are both class though and along with Kramer would be an instant upgrade.

longtimespur · Jun 22, 2015

Xeeleeyid said:
Everytime I see Bender Brothers, I have to laugh

Which ones picking up the soap????????

Timberwolf · Jun 22, 2015

Xeeleeyid said:
The midfield was good enough to finish 5th last season. If anything there was maybe a lack of depth which means we were unable to effectively rest Mason & Bentaleb when they were clearly looking knackered. But then we are welcoming Alli and MP will probably run the rule over him, Carroll and Veljkovic in pre-season.

Any player that will drastically upgrade on our existing midfield, is going to be horrendously difficult for us to sign. I just wish people would wake up to this fact.

Do you think Kramer will make us any more likely to improve on a 5th place finish and take out one of City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Man U?

If the answer is no, why not try everything possible to get our number one target in the knowledge that this might mean we miss out on anyone come the season's end?

I think we finished 5th in spite of our midfield, not because of it. I don't think Bentaleb and Mason were poor by any means, but I think most fans would agree it's an area we need to improve on.

And regarding signings, there's a middle ground. There must be players out there more attainable than Schneiderlin that would significantly improve us. Schneiderlin is overpriced, owned by a team that probably doesn't want to sell to us after we nicked their manager, has stated he wants CL football and is potentially a target of bigger, more tempting clubs in our league. That's a lot of hurdles to overcome. I'm not saying it's not possible, but there's an awful lot working against us.

Trix · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
Also on the subject of alternative targets. Two questions...

As previously stated, why on earth are we being linked with Imbula when he is similar to what we have and is very different to MS? (This link alone is what gives me doubts on this subject)

Secondly, if you can say... Who are the other Germans? (The Bender Brothers spring to mind and would be great alternatives to MS) and please tell me that they and Kramer are preferred over Imbula?

FWIW I have no idea why certain players are being targeted, but its all about ticking as many boxes as possible. For instance why did OWF buy Carrick to replace Roy Keane? They couldn't have been different CM's but it still worked because he did enough of the right things even if they were different right things(if that makes sense).

As for names I am not willing to put any more out there, firstly because I let it slip a bit early regarding our interest in Kramer, and secondly because I'm taking all the boys out on the boat on Friday, so best not to say anything that will make waves(pun) four days before being stuck out on the beautiful briny with the guys that are passing me the info.

Trix · Jun 22, 2015

TrickyVilla said:
FWIW I have no idea why certain players are being targeted, but its all about ticking as many boxes as possible. For instance why did OWF buy Carrick to replace Roy Keane? They couldn't have been different CM's but it still worked because he did enough of the right things even if they were different right things(if that makes sense).

As for names I am not willing to put any more out there just now, firstly because I let it slip a bit early regarding our interest in Kramer, and secondly because I'm taking all the boys out on the boat on Friday, so best not to say anything that will make waves(pun) four days before being stuck out on the beautiful briny with the guys that are passing me the info.

balalasaurus · Jun 22, 2015

TrickyVilla said:
Problem is when you identify top players that are doing very well for their current clubs as targets, then other clubs want them aswell. The best players are always in demand, so its never as easy as "just go for that one".

The only easy to get targets are the ones no one else wants. Would anyone on here rather us go down this route instead?

Don't stress yourself Trix. The annual ITK meltdown has just begun. Now the fun really starts.

mikeeegreen · Jun 22, 2015

TrickyVilla said:
FWIW I have no idea why certain players are being targeted, but its all about ticking as many boxes as possible. For instance why did OWF buy Carrick to replace Roy Keane? They couldn't have been different CM's but it still worked because he did enough of the right things even if they were different right things(if that makes sense).

As for names I am not willing to put any more out there, firstly because I let it slip a bit early regarding our interest in Kramer, and secondly because I'm taking all the boys out on the boat on Friday, so best not to say anything that will make waves(pun) four days before being stuck out on the beautiful briny with the guys that are passing me the info.

ahh ok cool. Well lets hope you get some more out of them, like you've always managed to in the past!

Respect though, keeping them sweet and that.

I understand what you say about Carrick aswell, but those are two players who improved a team from a clear perspective. That is also a player replacing a player already in a Team, not an alternative target. I just do not see how Imbula will help improve us at all, and seems very similar to what we already have in Dembele, Paulinho etc and we don't not need anymore of that. When you miss out on a target (MS) you want someone with very similar attributes to offer what is needed to the team. Imbula is nothing like MS from what I have seen, where as Kramer, The Benders etc are.

@Bobby__Lucky · Jun 22, 2015

longtimespur said:
Which ones picking up the soap????????

will be a clash of heads.

Gaz_Gammon · Jun 22, 2015

Timberwolf said:
Why don't Chelsea and City have 5 CBs then? How many do Arsenal have? There's always potential for injuries, but that doesn't mean every club needs 2 backups for every position. We've got Stambouli and that Serbian kid whose name I can't spell as backup. Why splash out on a 5th?

Barcelona have five.

The point isn't about matching what other teams do now is it, it's about trying something different that may work.

Fact is that our defence was tired and looked lethargic three quarters of the way through the season and five CB's would certainly help that situation in my opinion especially with the number of games likely to be played again next season.

We have tried in the past to shoe-in players from other positions on the pitch, and if that was a success why did we not keep Naughton to cover for Rose instead of buying Davies? Why buy Trippier and Yedlin when Dier or Chiriches can cover Walker?

"Why splash out on a fifth"

Because we finished with the fifth worse defensive record in the PL, looked total shot defensively against most teams come season end and oh, still had two strikers who didn't play but cameo roles for the whole season, and thats where we have splashed out and wasted money.

Trix · Jun 22, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
ahh ok cool. Well lets hope you get some more out of them, like you've always managed to in the past!

Respect though, keeping them sweet and that.

I understand what you say about Carrick aswell, but those are two players who improved a team from a clear perspective. I just do not see how Imbula will help improve us at all, and seems very similar to what we already have in Dembele, Paulinho etc. When you miss out on a target (MS) you want someone with very similar attributes to offer what is needed to the team. Imbula is nothing like MS from what I have seen, where as Kramer, The Benders etc are.

I personally think Dembele is an excellent player when fit and on his game, so saying he is similar to Dembele is not an issue to me as long as he is the fit on form one that has destroyed some of the best CM's in the world on his day. He is the only player I can remember that to make an inform Toure look less than ordinary. He has also dominated midffield proceedings against Chelsea, Pool and multiple times against Yanited. The problem with Dembele is not his game type but the fact he couldn't replicate his best game anywhere near enough(a lot of that because of injury). If we were to get a player that played like Dembele but do it week in week out then imo we have a true world class DM/CM. I personally havent seen enough of him to have an opinion on whether he can be that good or not, but I have certainly seen a lot of references likening him to Dembele.

Gaz_Gammon · Jun 22, 2015

Blackcanary said:
Why are you so fixated on the sheer numbers? We'll likely have a similar number of fixtures to last year, where we generally had enough strength in depth to manage.

What we need in that defence is to coach and organise, not throw more bodies at it.

We actually "managed" our way to the fifth worst defensive record in the PL. The "fixation" is about numbers, and thats stemming the flow of goals going into our net.

Since we have been playing season in season out in the EL our defensive record has been poor, the idea that a coach can make the same three or four center backs perform beyond their physical capabilities week in week out is plain stupid. Our record after the EL games is clear for all to see, it's plainly the physical demands of playing in four competitions using the absolute minimum number of players that can be fielded to launch a serious challenge.

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