Why Trophies don't matter any more

Donki · Feb 27, 2018

Shadydan said:
Great article, headline is a little misleading (to be expected) but it's a rebuttal to those who say that Pochettino absolutely has to win a trophy to be looked at as a successful manager. I think as a club we do need to win a trophy soon just to get the monkey off our back and that it's been so damn long since we won anything but I don't think it's absolutely essential we win something like everyone like to make out, there's far more to it than that.

I think people are agreeing with the article more because it fits in with Pochs idea. I love Poch but I don't agree with how he talks about the the cups here. We had our chance to win the league and we failed when really we shouldn't have.

I hate Jose I do but you have to appreciate his thinking and balls last season. He gambled big time and it paid off. He sacrificed the league and won 2 cups. He is a big game manager. Poch has improved on his big game matches this season, and I hope he continues to improve.

Shadydan · Feb 27, 2018

Donki said:
I think people are agreeing with the article more because it fits in with Pochs idea. I love Poch but I don't agree with how he talks about the the cups here. We had our chance to win the league and we failed when really we shouldn't have.

I hate Jose I do but you have to appreciate his thinking and balls last season. He gambled big time and it paid off. He sacrificed the league and won 2 cups. He is a big game manager. Poch has improved on his big game matches this season, and I hope he continues to improve.

You can take his statement two ways, I took Poch's statement of prioritising the League and the CL as a ahow of our ambition and a message to the players and the fans more than anything, but like all managers he obviously places less emphasis on domestic cups, that's not to say that he totally disregards them because he doesn't. Since he's been at Spurs he's got to the final of the League Cup and reached the semi final of the FA Cup - the League Cup has always seen as a 4th priority and rightly so, if we manged to find ourselves in the latter rounds of the competition he tends to play stronger teams.

Jose's and Man Utd's remit is to win trophies, his team weren't good enough to finish top four last season which is why they prioritised the Europa League which subsequently got them in the CL via the back door. Pochettino and Spurs have different priorities - our priority right now is qualifying for the CL so Utd winning a trophy compared to us is non comparable.

Also I think it's harsh to say we 'failed' to win the league, it's not as if we were installed as favourites for either season, we were just consistent enough out of all of the other teams to challenge Leicester and then we found ourselves in a title challenge, the season after we were up against a team who played 1 game a week and had no European football. Failure sounds like we were top of the league and bottled it/threw the chance away.

Krule · Feb 27, 2018

If (WHEN) we beat Rochdale tomorrow then I hope Swansea regard trophies as lightly as some postings on here suggest they should.... (y)

because they are definitely not going to be a walkover having got this far in the competition.
This is by far the best chance we have had of lifting the FA Cup for some time...let's grab the opportunity and take the trophy to our new home......

monkeynick · Feb 27, 2018

Winning a trophy would be a satisfying climax, a concept sadly alien to my missus but one I find attainable in quick time with little effort.

spurs9 · Feb 27, 2018

Donki said:
When Blanchflower said “The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It is nothing of the kind. The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish.”. I don't think he's saying it's ok just to be a stylish team, or that winning trophies doesn't matter, he is saying you must be successful and win trophies in the right way.

Yep, he wasn't saying it's not about winning, he was saying it's not JUST about winning but rather winning in style. That being said, he was talking in the context of individual games (i.e not boring the opposition like whoever was the 60s equivalent of Pulis) not Trophies.

Donki · Feb 27, 2018

Shadydan said:
You can take his statement two ways, I took Poch's statement of prioritising the League and the CL as a ahow of our ambition and a message to the players and the fans more than anything, but like all managers he obviously places less emphasis on domestic cups, that's not to say that he totally disregards them because he doesn't. Since he's been at Spurs he's got to the final of the League Cup and reached the semi final of the FA Cup - the League Cup has always seen as a 4th priority and rightly so, if we manged to find ourselves in the latter rounds of the competition he tends to play stronger teams.

Jose's and Man Utd's remit is to win trophies, his team weren't good enough to finish top four last season which is why they prioritised the Europa League which subsequently got them in the CL via the back door. Pochettino and Spurs have different priorities - our priority right now is qualifying for the CL so Utd winning a trophy compared to us is non comparable.

Also I think it's harsh to say we 'failed' to win the league, it's not as if we were installed as favourites for either season, we were just consistent enough out of all of the other teams to challenge Leicester and then we found ourselves in a title challenge, the season after we were up against a team who played 1 game a week and had no European football. Failure sounds like we were top of the league and bottled it/threw the chance away.

It's a difficult thing to judge I'm not slating anyone here but, I don't think we should be openly saying we don't care about trophies. It's not a look I think is productive. No manager or player wants to go through their career just "progressing".

Shadydan · Feb 27, 2018

Donki said:
It's a difficult thing to judge I'm not slating anyone here but, I don't think we should be openly saying we don't care about trophies. It's not a look I think is productive. No manager or player wants to go through their career just "progressing".

He didn't say that though, he said that the FA and League Cup are not priorities and he is 100% correct, that doesn't mean he has no intention of winning them, he does.

Our objective is to win the Premier League, to win the Champions League – for me the two real trophies,” Pochettino said.

And then there is the FA Cup of course I would like to win and I would like to win the Carabao Cup, but if you want to be a big team and fight for big things, I think it is impossible if you don’t use all the squad and rotate in England.

The manager always wants to win. To win the Carabao Cup? Yes, of course but it would not change the life of Tottenham.

The FA Cup? Fantastic, I would love to win all the competitions in the world but it really changes your life if you win the Premier League or the Champions League. That is the truth.

thekneaf · Feb 28, 2018

Has this been covered now?

Trophies matter.

Donki · Mar 9, 2018

Shadydan said:
He didn't say that though, he said that the FA and League Cup are not priorities and he is 100% correct, that doesn't mean he has no intention of winning them, he does.

I didn't see this so sorry for the late reply, why in the world is a domestic cup, especially the FA Cup, not a priority? Is the only priority top four? That has been our priority since Harry R, and we have a much stronger squad now, time to raise our sights. The CL is gone, we should have a pass to the semi's on the FA CUP we should be able to balance a top 4 finish with 3 more FA Cup games.

Coyboy · Mar 9, 2018

Donki said:
I didn't see this so sorry for the late reply, why in the world is a domestic cup, especially the FA Cup, not a priority? Is the only priority top four? That has been our priority since Harry R, and we have a much stronger squad now, time to raise our sights. The CL is gone, we should have a pass to the semi's on the FA CUP we should be able to balance a top 4 finish with 3 more FA Cup games.

Because winning it means nothing as to a club’s development. Look at Pompey, Swansea, Everton in 95 and Wigan.

You’re right we should be able to do both and that’d be great. If we had done the quadruple that’d have been nice too. But I’d rather we get top 4 than the Cup. We could come up against Chelsea or United and get beaten on the day rightly or wrongly. Finishing or not finishing top 4 is a sign of consistency and development or quite frankly failure/disappointment.

Donki · Mar 9, 2018

Coyboy said:
Because winning it means nothing as to a club’s development. Look at Pompey, Swansea, Everton in 95 and Wigan.

You’re right we should be able to do both and that’d be great. If we had done the quadruple that’d have been nice too. But I’d rather we get top 4 than the Cup. We could come up against Chelsea or United and get beaten on the day rightly or wrongly. Finishing or not finishing top 4 is a sign of consistency and development or quite frankly failure/disappointment.

No no no no sorry we can't get into this mentality of thinking. There is absolutely no reason we can't take the top four and go for the FA cup, to say we may get beaten by United or Chelsea is simply a losing mentality. I agree finishing top for is a sign of consistency and development, but we have done that already. We need to move our sights on. Our talisman and club hero has said he wants trophies, he has said if in 2 years time he looks back and hasn't anything to show for it, it will be a disappointment. Good players with a winning mentality want to win things, if we cannot supply that, we have no chance of keeping our top players and honestly who could blame them. Come on how is finishing top 4 with at least an FA cup final anything like doing a treble or better?

We are saying now we want to be like what we laughed at Arsenal for doing, I simply don't understand why people think not winning anything is continually acceptable.

Shadydan · Mar 9, 2018

Donki said:
I didn't see this so sorry for the late reply, why in the world is a domestic cup, especially the FA Cup, not a priority? Is the only priority top four? That has been our priority since Harry R, and we have a much stronger squad now, time to raise our sights. The CL is gone, we should have a pass to the semi's on the FA CUP we should be able to balance a top 4 finish with 3 more FA Cup games.

Dude this really isn't the big deal you're trying to make it out as, prioritising your ambition doesn't mean totally negating the goals that aren't high up on your list.

jurgen · Mar 9, 2018

Coyboy said:
Because winning it means nothing as to a club’s development. Look at Pompey, Swansea, Everton in 95 and Wigan.

You’re right we should be able to do both and that’d be great. If we had done the quadruple that’d have been nice too. But I’d rather we get top 4 than the Cup. We could come up against Chelsea or United and get beaten on the day rightly or wrongly. Finishing or not finishing top 4 is a sign of consistency and development or quite frankly failure/disappointment.

It's about context. None of those clubs were in the same position as we are now. An FA Cup was an outlier result for a club that wasn't capable of capitalising on it. Even Arsenal are in a different situation where the Cup papered over cracks of a lazy and ambivalent, overpaid squad - which isn't the case for us either. I think we, as a club, are capable of building on it and it would be positive for our development to win it.

It's clear we're a very good footballing team, but it's also clear that we have come up slightly short in big crunch situations. We will probably have to play Utd or Chelsea if we hope to win it, and to beat one of those shithouse clubs, with very experienced managers, in a huge knockout match, would be great for our development in my opinion. Wasn't it Vincent Kompany (one of the more intelligent footballers out there) who stressed the importance of City winning their first trophy, even if it wasn't the biggest or most glamourous pot on offer.

In terms of our development, we know that we can be consistently high-level in the league, even if that level is slightly lower this year at the moment (or rather the level of others has increased), and we now know that we can compete in the CL in the group stages, but we're still naive in knockout football. So an FA Cup win could help to change this.

As Donki says, there is no excuse for us chasing both this year, none at all. We should prioritise these three games like we would have prioritised the 2 after Juve if we had made it through. Most teams would love the draw we have had so far (apart from Arsenal, as it would be quite a hard one compared to their recent years) and the fact we will be playing any more matches 'at home' if we can get past Swansea. Only three more matches, and you know it will mean a lot to the players if they win it.

Donki · Mar 9, 2018

Shadydan said:
Dude this really isn't the big deal you're trying to make it out as, prioritising your ambition doesn't mean totally negating the goals that aren't high up on your list.

3 games left in the FA cup, should we not go all out to win it? We have "home" advantage and dispite what I tell other fans it must be an advantage for us.

WalkerboyUK · Mar 9, 2018

Donki said:
3 games left in the FA cup, should we not go host out to win it?

We have no CL fixtures to clog up the schedule and there are no replays in FA Cup from this point, so there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why we shouldn't be looking to win it.
As much as our players are behind Poch and his footballing philosophy, you have to think one or two are wondering about his comments that a trophy isn't that important. If the intention within the management team is purely to ensure top 4 and CL football each season, we will inevitably start to lose players.

Donki · Mar 9, 2018

WalkerboyUK said:
We have no CL fixtures to clog up the schedule and there are no replays in FA Cup from this point, so there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why we shouldn't be looking to win it.
As much as our players are behind Poch and his footballing philosophy, you have to think one or two are wondering about his comments that a trophy isn't that important. If the intention within the management team is purely to ensure top 4 and CL football each season, we will inevitably start to lose players.

Exactly, we are managing to hold on to some World and Europeon talent with a comparatively shoe string budget because the team believe they can win at Tottenham. We need to prove this.

Any manager in any walk of life needs to continually reavaluate goals and objectives frequently, not just stick to preaseason ons. I got neg repped in another thread for saying we aren't an elite club yet, elite clubs win tropies.

Shadydan · Mar 9, 2018

Donki said:
3 games left in the FA cup, should we not go all out to win it? We have "home" advantage and dispite what I tell other fans it must be an advantage for us.

Of course we should, I have suggested anything different...I don't understand why you think we wouldn't?

nasescoba1985 · Mar 9, 2018

Any Spurs fan that thinks Trophies are not important are incredibly deluded. We don't start winning stuff, then all our top players like Kane etc will move on. We start winning stuff + getting into the top 4 each season, then our top players won't need to move. It's also about time this club wins some silver ware. I'm sorry, but 1 league cup in over 20 years is abysmal.

Another trophy less season for me is another failure. People mentioning the likes of Wigan etc as a back up to their trophies are not important argument are talking shit. The likes of Wigan etc are completely different as they were relegated that season. We as a club are on a different level and are currently top 4 challengers season after season. It's about time this team delivers a trophy, end of story.

Donki · Mar 9, 2018

Shadydan said:
Of course we should, I have suggested anything different...I don't understand why you think we wouldn't?

The whole thinking of the thread does :cautious:

.

dagraham · Mar 9, 2018

Coyboy said:
Because winning it means nothing as to a club’s development. Look at Pompey, Swansea, Everton in 95 and Wigan.

You’re right we should be able to do both and that’d be great. If we had done the quadruple that’d have been nice too. But I’d rather we get top 4 than the Cup. We could come up against Chelsea or United and get beaten on the day rightly or wrongly. Finishing or not finishing top 4 is a sign of consistency and development or quite frankly failure/disappointment.

Alternatively, look at a lot of successful clubs and their journey as winners started with domestic cups. The City team first got a taste of winning in the FA Cup, Fergie has often talked about that first FA Cup as very important for the players and clubs mind-set. If you don't believe me, then listen to the ex professional players. They are not just mentioning it to knock us. Whatever you think of their punditry they know far more about professional footballers mind-sets than you or I ever can. It gives players (or any sportsman in fact) belief and know how they can draw on in bigger games to come. It can also give hungry players even more hunger to repeat the process and help convince players that they can win things with Spurs.

The reason winning the cups meant nothing to those teams you've listed above is because they were anomalies. The players knew it, the fans knew it. A great day out the fans won't forget, but those clubs had others issues and other priorities. Our priority (or it should be) is to win trophies and be successful. Not just become every neutrals favourite other team to watch.

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