Eric Dier

Bus-Conductor said:

I think by and large, our performances through much of Dembele’s large periods of absences over the last few seasons suggest we won’t miss him as much as some believe, especially if we recruit well.

I’ve always acknowledged that on a good day he’s got some great attributes that can be an asset, but our midfield is a creative black hole that sucks everything into its vortex, it needs to evolve.

Click to expand...

Kovacic please

Ps. Dier is a worse Central midfielder than Joey Barton was and you all know it

guiltyparty said:

This. Cracks me up these Spurs fans being all “Liverpool are obsessed with us and slagging us off” but who can’t accept Henderson is decent. You’re doing exactly the same thing.

The pillorying of Henderson and raving about Dier just doesn’t stand up to any analysis or investigation.

Used to be a big fan of Dier but he has personally regressed hugely. Whether it’s wanting a move or what, dunno, but he’s way off the player I thought he was going to be a few years ago

Click to expand...

I’ve never liked him in midfield. I think he should have stuck to being a cb, where I think he’s got the potential to be another Alderweireld type.

I think Poch has to take some blame for this. He even said in his book he sees him as a cb.

I think Poch has let his fear of alienating certain players, coupled with his own tactical risk aversion at times, get the better of him.

I don’t think anybody is saying Eric is bad player but for us to go to the next level we need a better DM than him.

Zippy1980 said:

I don’t think anybody is saying Eric is bad player but for us to go to the next level we need a better DM than him.

Click to expand...

Carvalho

He should be the right centre back in a three for England with Walker as right back. That’s his best position.

tiger666 said:

Doesn't seem like you're reflecting on last nights performance when calling him a donkey at CB. It seems you're using last nights performance as an excuse to have a dig.

Click to expand...

No. I brought up his bad performances at CB when someone mentioned he was better at CB when he isn't at all. Anyway as I said I do like Dier but for me he has stagnated badly. It says it all when he can't even get in an England side which in CM is surely lacking in quality.

WiganSpur said:

You've actually just described Dier as a midfield player. That's the only reason why I think people rate him there.

What does he do in midfield that's so good?

Not denying he's a great defender but what is he good at as a midfielder?

Click to expand...

His defensive positioning is world class, he's outstanding on defensive transition, he allows the CBs to split, making it easier for us to build from the back, on the rare occassions he gets in the position to do so, he has got a wicked ball into the box in him (think his balls from the inside right area finding a player at the far post), and he's a competent passer, although that's not his main responsibility. But it's his defensive instincts and his ability to shut out even the hint of a possibly dangerous situation early that makes him indispensable. No one does this better at Spurs, at least no one in midfield anyway.

The problem is that much of what Dier excels at won't show up on a stat sheet, which so many here are completely obsessed by and use as the primary way to analyse the game and a player, instead of using them as the useful supplement that they're supposed to be. How often do they record someone closing down a passing lane through smart defensive movement? There are no stats for a player being in the smartest place on defensive transition, slowing down a counter, meaning that the opposition has to slow their play. They don't record how useful it is when he drops to make it a back three, giving us more options in our build from the back and opening holes in midfield for the likes of Eriksen to exploit. Et cetera, et cetera.

The massive issue so many people have in this thread is that they judge him against what THEY want from a midfielder and THEIR expectations of what a midfielder should be, when in fact they should be judging him against the role he is playing in POCHETTINO'S system, a role he obviously plays extremely well.

It's not his job to dictate tempo, be dynamic and press about. He doesn't have to always be showing for the ball (and therefore getting pulled out of the position he's INSTRUCTED to be in when we're building from the back and through the middle third), or playing Xabi Alonso-esque balls from the base of midfield. It's absolutely nonsensical to judge him against this criteria. It's like saying that Kane doesn't make enough clearances, or Hugo doesn't score enough goals. It's just foolishness.

Primativ said:

Henderson has played well in the world cup so far and is a much better user of the ball than Dier is. In terms of form it's not close.

Click to expand...

One other thing Henderson is much, much better than Dier is his movement when he's not in possession, offering more passing avenues to his team mates; whereas Dier just stands around pointing to where the ball should be played and doesn't seem to want it himself.

chinaman said:

One other thing Henderson is much, much better than Dier is his movement when he's not in possession, offering more passing avenues to his team mates; whereas Dier just stands around pointing to where the ball should be played and doesn't seem to want it himself.

Click to expand...

Maybe Dier is doing what he's told.

nicdic said:

Henderson's stats look good because Liverpool hit the ball long over the top for Salah to work magic from. Much easier to hit a "key pass" in that set up than from the deepest midfield position in ours.

Also think it's grossly unfair to criticise Dier on last nights performance. Put him with the rest of the starting XI and we have a much clearer picture of who brings more.

As much at the commentators/pundits have been singing Henderson's praises, for me it's still a throwback to just praising someone who does a bit of shouting and pointing and looks passionate. Cannot stand him as a footballer.

Click to expand...

Dier's performances for England have been absolutely turgid. Dreadful. On par with the Phil Jones in CM experiment.

I accept that we don't press as ferociously as Liverpool, and we don't transition ferociously like Liverpool, but part of the reason we don't press well and transition with tempo is Dier. He can't press because he's scared of getting turned and being unable to recover, and he doesn't help transition, even a medium paced one, because his passing is so methodical and by numbers.

I really like Dier the person, and I don't mean that as a sideways compliment, I think he's an intelligent and interesting character, and I think if he put his mind to it, he could end up being a really good CB, in the mould of Alderweireld, but he's an awful CM.

tiger666 said:

Maybe Dier is doing what he's told.

Click to expand...

If so, that's even shittier coaching than the "just run about a bit" thing we had.

I love Eric Dier.

Wanna dish out some bans

glospur said:

A sure sign that someone has absolutely 0 clue about the role Dier plays or the value he brings, and generally the role of a holding midfielder, is when they say he isn't energetic enough or doesn't press well. That's literally the last thing you want from your defensive midfielder in England's system as it would leave all sorts of holes in midfield for crafty attackers and advanced midfielders to exploit. And the same goes for Spurs. When teams break through our press it's almost always Dier who is positioned perfectly to slow down their attack and allow the players who have pressed to regain their shape. It's just weird that people think that because he uses an economy of movement and doesnt run around like a headless chicken, it means he's been poor.

Dier's knowledge of defensive positioning is genuinely elite. There's no one better in this English squad when it comes to those instincts, and no one who plays in midfield for Spurs who is better. Anyone who just looks at his 'simple' passing or lack of energy is ridiculously lazy and shallow in their analysis of his game, and it's a sure sign of someone who has a poor understanding and appreciation of the defensive qualities in a footballer, and their importance to a team.

There is a reason why the best defensive coach in the league over the last few years always picks him, and there's a reason why arguably the best defensive coach in the world was desperate to splash 50m on him last summer. They both appreciate how good Dier is with his defensive instincts and knoweldge of where to be somewhere and when to be there.

Click to expand...

Being in the "Dier is not a CM/DM" camp since he moved there, I have been adamant that his major faults are with the ball, not without.

What Dier is Good at:

- Shielding
- Slowing counters with smart readings of angles
- Reading the game in front of him (this is key)
- Tackling opposition that is in front of him
- Picking passes when given an abundance of time

What Dier is poor at:

- Hips (his tight hips limit him and will limit him as an actual CM/DM)
- Tracking from behind. (If turned he is lost...HIPS)
- Receiving the ball under pressure
- Pivoting with the ball at his feet when under pressure
- Quick one touch football
- Quick feet to relieve pressure and find space on his own
- A cool, calm, collected mentality. Makes rash decisions that put his team under pressure.
- Creating breaks with his passing

Dier has all the makings of a top-6 CB. He is physical, a pretty good reader of the game when it is in front of him, and has some leadership qualities. But the center of the park is far too hectic for him and teams are finding that out. Put him under pressure and you take away our attack and possibly start your own.

I believe Poch was forced to play him there this year because of Wanyama's long term injury. Wanyama started the year, Dier didn't. This is probably why we are linked with Barrios, who albeit I am not a huge fan of, but clearly has more technical ability than Dier. If we want to become more potent and fluid as a side, the center of the park needs to be addressed. The days of slow moving Dier and Dembele must end and a bit of rigidity needs to be sacrificed.

Edit: I think it is shortsighted to say Dier can't be improved on for Spurs or England. He has served us well, but there is room for improvement in the DM position and the moment we lock in on someone like Amadou Diawara, we will collectively be like, "oh, we have improved".

Edit 2: I am left scratching my head why some on this board think a DM must be this lumbering, ball winning player. The CM2 we deploy have the most touches damn near every game, so why not have a ball winner that can also be a ball player. These players exist, we just don't seem to be targeting them. Wanyama is a step up from Dier, but I still feel he lacks some of the forward thinking skills we desperately need from the anchor/pivot role.

glospur said:

What, and Pochettino should also 'stop pretending he can play midfield' despite him being a mainstay and a vital cog of our best top flight years since the 60s?

Pochettino picks the sides, and he regularly picks Dier in midfield because he, unlike so many on here he seems, actually understands and appreciates what he brings in midfield.

Click to expand...

Pochettino has stated he sees Dier as a CB and that they disagree on this. I think injuries to Wanyama, Dembele and Winks have contributed to Dier playing more minutes in midfield than he would have otherwise.

And we were much better last year, with Wanyama playing CM and Dier in a back 3. Our press has dropped off drastically, partly because Dier can't do it; he's not the only culprit, but it's vital that your CM'are comfortable squeezing up the pitch, and our worst performances are against teams that press us, because Dier doesn't want the ball under pressure, because he can't move with it.

And, whilst I'm replying to you, this whole misnomer about Dier being a defensive genius because he can drop 10 yards and allow the CB's to split is a massively over stated "thing"(as @WiganSpur said above). Wanyama does it, Lesniak did for a couple of years for the U23's, we've got kids doing it at U18 level. It's basic stuff.

Bus-Conductor said:

Pochettino has stated he sees Dier as a CB and that they disagree on this. I think injuries to Wanyama, Dembele and Winks have contributed to Dier playing more minutes in midfield than he would have otherwise.

And we were much better last year, with Wanyama playing CM and Dier in a back 3. Our press has dropped off drastically, partly because Dier can't do it; he's not the only culprit, but it's vital that your CM'are comfortable squeezing up the pitch, and our worst performances are against teams that press us, because Dier doesn't want the ball under pressure, because he can't move with it.

And, whilst I'm replying to you, this whole misnomer about Dier being a defensive genius because he can drop 10 yards and allow the CB's to split is a massively over stated "thing"(as @WiganSpur said above). Wanyama does it, Lesniak did for a couple of years for the U23's, we've got kids doing it at U18 level. It's basic stuff.

Click to expand...

Sorry mate, but we’ve never looked like a balanced team with Wanyama dropping between the centre backs.

I don't understand why people defend Dier for his lacking abilities as a ball-playing DM. I am not asking for him to be the next Busquets, but I do want to expect more ball progression, vision and keeping some passing rhythm.

Thank christ Eriksen is a godly player. There has been countless number of games where Eriksen is seemingly annoyed with the CM2 and he drops deeper in the midfield to progress the ball. He is literally our primary creator, while also scoring goals, while also getting assist, also runs the most kilometres and while he is doing all of those things he still drop deeper to help out the CM2.

I just want a player, which could be Dier, to progress the ball from midfield to final third so Eriksen, and also Dele, can have complete focus in the final third.

I still have nightmares of the game against Southampton without Eriksen. Complete and utter horror....

TheAwsPhil said:

I don't understand why people defend Dier for his lacking abilities as a ball-playing DM. I am not asking for him to be the next Busquets, but I do want to expect more ball progression, vision and keeping some passing rhythm.

Thank christ Eriksen is a godly player. There has been countless number of games where Eriksen is seemingly annoyed with the CM2 and he drops deeper in the midfield to progress the ball. He is literally our primary creator, while also scoring goals, while also getting assist, also runs the most kilometres and while he is doing all of those things he still drop deeper to help out the CM2.

I just want a player, which could be Dier, to progress the ball from midfield to final third so Eriksen, and also Dele, can have complete focus in the final third.

I still have nightmares of the game against Southampton without Eriksen. Complete and utter horror....

Click to expand...

Seems you're having a go at him for something he isn't. In the same way you could have a go at Eriksen for not being better defensively. That just isn't Dier's game.

tiger666 said:

Seems you're having a go at him for something he isn't. In the same way you could have a go at Eriksen for not being better defensively. That just isn't Dier's game.

Click to expand...

I am having a go at him as a DM, still think he could be a brilliant CB.

Well If he is not responsible for ball-progression then there is no problem with him and the real problem is Dembele, if we believe the CM2 dynamic is simply one ball-winning DM and one ball-progressing CM.

TheAwsPhil said:

I am having a go at him as a DM, still think he could be a brilliant CB.

Well If he is not responsible for ball-progression then there is no problem with him and the real problem is Dembele, if we believe the CM2 dynamic is simply one ball-winning DM and one ball-progressing CM.

Click to expand...

There's a lot wrong with the way Dembele plays in our system imo. Hopefully that problem will be addressed this summer.