Bus-Conductor
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- Oct 19, 2004
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So unbalanced we had our best finish in the league for 60 years. I don't even know what that means? Did him dropping back ten yards cause a starboard list?
Eric Dier
- Thread starter SpursManChris
- Start date
So unbalanced we had our best finish in the league for 60 years. I don't even know what that means? Did him dropping back ten yards cause a starboard list?
mpickard2087
Patient Zero
- Jun 13, 2008
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From a Spurs perspective, Dembele has to be mentioned in this discussion, because what he now does impacts on his partner. For the last two seasons he's become more and more the 'sitter' when we don't have the ball - he stays in the centre circle and holds the fort whilst the other goes and hunts down and presses the ball. When it was a 100% fit and firing Wanyama doing the job in 16/17 then that's ok, but last year we've seen more and more it was Dier getting tasked to do this, and he just isn't as suitable for the 'hunter' role and having to be quick on his feet. He'll still have the same flaws, but if he had a more mobile partner next to him he would at least fulfil a remit as the screen in front of the defence.
For England, I don't think it's with the ball that most goes against him currently. Henderson has a marginally better passing range/ability/plays forward, but there isn't much in it at all. It's without the ball that's key, as I have said throughout the world cup England have a system that's basically avoiding the midfield, has a lot of forward runners, and leaves the sitting midfielder having to cover across huge ground (often not very successfully) - and I thought Dier was often caught making the wrong option last night and leaving gaps to open up. If they continue with it I think it's doomed to fail whatever they do, but Henderson is the better pick being more mobile and superior with the press. It's a pretty thankless role for either of them though in my opinion.
Ultimately I am another who thinks he should focus on centre back, and having a little more time and the whole game in front of him, but that ship seems to be getting ever closer to going over the horizon.
For England, I don't think it's with the ball that most goes against him currently. Henderson has a marginally better passing range/ability/plays forward, but there isn't much in it at all. It's without the ball that's key, as I have said throughout the world cup England have a system that's basically avoiding the midfield, has a lot of forward runners, and leaves the sitting midfielder having to cover across huge ground (often not very successfully) - and I thought Dier was often caught making the wrong option last night and leaving gaps to open up. If they continue with it I think it's doomed to fail whatever they do, but Henderson is the better pick being more mobile and superior with the press. It's a pretty thankless role for either of them though in my opinion.
Ultimately I am another who thinks he should focus on centre back, and having a little more time and the whole game in front of him, but that ship seems to be getting ever closer to going over the horizon.
- Oct 17, 2006
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Unconsiously or not, Spurs fan are going to be blinkered where Dier and other Spurs players concerned
IGSpur
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- Jan 11, 2013
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I feel there is a bit of a backlash as Dier looked poor in a 2nd string team. He and others are taking criticims for playing in a somewhat disjointed team. It's the same thing that happens when we play a second string team in the Carling Cup or whne we did it in the Europa League and our squad players and then academy players would take some flack.
In saying that I've never been one of those who think Dier is top quality but I think he is a very good DM. England don't have the best CM options and if we're going to go with one DM I would prefer it to be Dier. I think he passes forward and is better defensively than Henderson. If you have a sole DM then the job of that DM should primarily be getting the ball to the players ahead of him as quickly as possible. I'm pretty sure Dier completes more forward passes per game than Henderson despite making less passes overall, and is better defensively both with interceptions and tackling. I don't need my DM in this system creating chances, I just need them to get the ball to the people who do it as quick as possible and not pass side to side.
The downside with Dier imo is he can occasioanlly make lax passes and also quickly gets overconfident and tries over ambitoous passes. As another poster mentioned I think he can also wait for the ball to come to him, rather than go to the ball which I think is a symptom of beeing a CB converted into a DM, but I don't see what qualities Henderson brings that massively outweigh Dier's abliity. As a general CM Henderson is probably better but as I say when playing a pure DM, Dier gets the ball to the attackers more efficiently and sweeps up better. They both have problems taking the ball on the half turn but even then I think Dier does that better. I think Henderson is a lot more safety first and will generally look back before he goes forward, which results in less cock ups but ultimately stifles the team. Dier also has the added bonus of playing with Stones and Walker behind him and Alli ahead of him more than Henderson. Both of them have the ability to pick out long passes, but neither is creative enough for it to really sway the decision. It's not like Henderson is Pirlo. There's a reason Klopp has targeted around 3 CMs this summer as he can see Henderson is the weak link in their midfield. Whereas we've had clubs trying to sign Dier off us.
I'm not saying Dier is quality but when you have those 2 as options I would go for Dier. He is also an added threat from set pieces, and if he were to be put into the starting 11 he would look a lot better than with the 2nd team. He was one of England's best players at the Euros after all.
In saying that I've never been one of those who think Dier is top quality but I think he is a very good DM. England don't have the best CM options and if we're going to go with one DM I would prefer it to be Dier. I think he passes forward and is better defensively than Henderson. If you have a sole DM then the job of that DM should primarily be getting the ball to the players ahead of him as quickly as possible. I'm pretty sure Dier completes more forward passes per game than Henderson despite making less passes overall, and is better defensively both with interceptions and tackling. I don't need my DM in this system creating chances, I just need them to get the ball to the people who do it as quick as possible and not pass side to side.
The downside with Dier imo is he can occasioanlly make lax passes and also quickly gets overconfident and tries over ambitoous passes. As another poster mentioned I think he can also wait for the ball to come to him, rather than go to the ball which I think is a symptom of beeing a CB converted into a DM, but I don't see what qualities Henderson brings that massively outweigh Dier's abliity. As a general CM Henderson is probably better but as I say when playing a pure DM, Dier gets the ball to the attackers more efficiently and sweeps up better. They both have problems taking the ball on the half turn but even then I think Dier does that better. I think Henderson is a lot more safety first and will generally look back before he goes forward, which results in less cock ups but ultimately stifles the team. Dier also has the added bonus of playing with Stones and Walker behind him and Alli ahead of him more than Henderson. Both of them have the ability to pick out long passes, but neither is creative enough for it to really sway the decision. It's not like Henderson is Pirlo. There's a reason Klopp has targeted around 3 CMs this summer as he can see Henderson is the weak link in their midfield. Whereas we've had clubs trying to sign Dier off us.
I'm not saying Dier is quality but when you have those 2 as options I would go for Dier. He is also an added threat from set pieces, and if he were to be put into the starting 11 he would look a lot better than with the 2nd team. He was one of England's best players at the Euros after all.
Typical Spurs
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- Feb 10, 2016
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Eric Dier is extremely talented in that he is very versatile even at the very highest level. Agree with other posters that positionally he is good and in the modern game is a great asset to have because he can drop back into the defence if needed as play progresses.
However, in my opinion, that isn't enough if you don't show some quality on the pitch. At the moment to me, Dier seems so slow and cumbersome, both on and off the ball. His quickness of decision making on the ball seems poor at the moment, like he's not seeing the picture in his head before he receives the ball.
I hate Liverpool more than any other side, therefore hate Henderson. But I'd much rather have Henderson in that position than Eric Dier for England. He makes decisions 10000x quicker than Dier seems to be at the moment
However, in my opinion, that isn't enough if you don't show some quality on the pitch. At the moment to me, Dier seems so slow and cumbersome, both on and off the ball. His quickness of decision making on the ball seems poor at the moment, like he's not seeing the picture in his head before he receives the ball.
I hate Liverpool more than any other side, therefore hate Henderson. But I'd much rather have Henderson in that position than Eric Dier for England. He makes decisions 10000x quicker than Dier seems to be at the moment
Taking a right bashing in the press being compared to Glenn whelan ? one of Dier biggest problems is that when he plays well he rarely gets noticed. But when he plays badly he sticks out like a sore thumb. People always go on about him being a “leader” but he always comes across as pretty shy and quiet in his interviews. Hope this doesn’t effect him too much, he seems a pretty sensitive guy.
[QUOTE="mpickard2087, post: 5938113, member: 15214
Ultimately I am another who thinks he should focus on centre back, and having a little more time and the whole game in front of him, but that ship seems to be getting ever closer to going over the horizon.[/QUOTE]
Loving the imagery
but that makes Sanchez the iceberg
in this scenario.
Ultimately I am another who thinks he should focus on centre back, and having a little more time and the whole game in front of him, but that ship seems to be getting ever closer to going over the horizon.[/QUOTE]
Loving the imagery
but that makes Sanchez the iceberg
in this scenario.
Trees
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- Aug 31, 2012
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Dier is a player who we wouldn’t appreciate until he’s not here. In another era he would be the boo boys target.
I’m afraid even the most blinkered of Spurs fans can’t dispute that Henderson deserves his spot.
However.... Dier to me is a fantastic centre half in the making. That’s where I think he should target long term.
I’m afraid even the most blinkered of Spurs fans can’t dispute that Henderson deserves his spot.
However.... Dier to me is a fantastic centre half in the making. That’s where I think he should target long term.
Bus-Conductor
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It's a bit dangerous to rely on "passing forwards" as passing forwards doesn't always "passing clever" Dier drops much deeper (the fabled between the CB's deeper) so it's hard for him to do anything other than pass forwards sometimes, whereas Henderson is invariably pushed right up, gagen pressing, making a backwards pass more viable. Despite this, and despite Dier usually playing in a CM2 and Henderson often playing centrally of a CM3, meaning Dier is also often just tapping it 45% to a FB, he only makes about 2.8 more forward passes per 90 than Henderson. Their tackling and interception stats are pretty similar. But at least Henderson can press a man, Dier can't for fear of being turned. And some of Dier's forward passes are just him panicking under pressure and whacking it at the nearest available outlet, whether they are being pressed or not, and as you alluded to, his passing is easily rattled.
But when it comes to the efficacy of their passing, Henderson pisses it, making nearly double the key passes and about 85% more chances. Again, considering he often plays the central pivot, with two 8's and Dier as one of a double pivot with the conservative Dembele or Wanyama you'd think those numbers would be reversed. You say "it's not like Henderson is Pirlo" but it's not like Dier is Henderson when it comes to distributing the ball. Henderson is no Pirlo but he sees, passes and executes them quicker than Dier does.
And saying Dier is better on the half turn is crackers. Dier is hopeless unless he's getting the ball in plenty of time, space and the game in front of him. He cannot move with the ball, cannot go past anyone, and does not want to receive the ball when the team are getting pressed. At least Henderson is more comfortable receiving a ball under some pressure.
I think positional stability gets trotted out as a metaphor for a lack of mobility - the same was often rattled out about Huddlestone.
And this isn't about Dier playing one game in a reserve England side. England stunk out the last Euro's with Dier playing Henderson's role, and he was a major factor in their ponderous and stodgy performances. He's also a major factor in Spurs lethargy in midfield. Wanyama is a better hunter gatherer, plays the same role as Dier, but he also makes even more key passes and chances for others than Henderson does - double that of Dier.
Dier shouldn't be anywhere near a midfield. There are lots pf players who can provide more dynamic defensive stability but at least a modicum of alacrity to go with it, and he's not one of them.
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scat1620
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glospur
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Nonsense. Those attributes and traits are based on the fact that I've/we've seen them from him time and time and time and time and time again. That's why I 'assume (it's not actually an assumption. it's observed, demonstrable fact)' that he does these things.
Also, I'm not sure why being a good on field leader and organiser is something to sneer at, and it's ridiculous to reduce him to a shouter and pointer. That's not all he is, and it's incredibly unfair to characterise him as such.
Wanyama did it, but not to the same quality. He doesn't have the same positional instincts having not played permanently at CB before, and nor is he as competent as playing out from the back in a back three. he's more of a ball carrier rather than passer, and is more of an energetic presser from midfield, unlike Dier, who is far more positionally astute.
But no, you're right. Eric Dier is not Sergio Busquets. But then Jan isn't Beckenbauer either, nor is Lamela the same as Maradonna while we're comparing players to arguably the best of all time their position. What a weird reason to criticise him.
Well, that's for Pochettino to decide, and I'm certainly not him. But from our squad now, he's the best option for that position and has demonstrated on a number of tims that not only can he fill in at CM in Pochettino's system, but he can carry our his instructions more than competently,
Also, maybe, just maybe, as the evidence suggests, Pochettino is more than happy with how Dier fits into teh structure of the team as a DM and what he offers in relation to the actual instructions given.
LOL because I said that him dropping between the CBs makes him a defensive genius.
BC- cherry picking parts of posts and making them a straw man since 2004.
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- Oct 17, 2006
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Are you Dier's campaign manager? You seem to be making him what he is notNonsense. Those attributes and traits are based on the fact that I've/we've seen them from him time and time and time and time and time again. That's why I 'assume (it's not actually an assumption. it's observed, demonstrable fact)' that he does these things.
Also, I'm not sure why being a good on field leader and organiser is something to sneer at, and it's ridiculous to reduce him to a shouter and pointer. That's not all he is, and it's incredibly unfair to characterise him as such.
Wanyama did it, but not to the same quality. He doesn't have the same positional instincts having not played permanently at CB before, and nor is he as competent as playing out from the back in a back three. he's more of a ball carrier rather than passer, and is more of an energetic presser from midfield, unlike Dier, who is far more positionally astute.
But no, you're right. Eric Dier is not Sergio Busquets. But then Jan isn't Beckenbauer either, nor is Lamela the same as Maradonna while we're comparing players to arguably the best of all time their position. What a weird reason to criticise him.
Well, that's for Pochettino to decide, and I'm certainly not him. But from our squad now, he's the best option for that position and has demonstrated on a number of tims that not only can he fill in at CM in Pochettino's system, but he can carry our his instructions more than competently,
Also, maybe, just maybe, as the evidence suggests, Pochettino is more than happy with how Dier fits into teh structure of the team as a DM and what he offers in relation to the actual instructions given.
LOL because I said that him dropping between the CBs makes him a defensive genius.
BC- cherry picking parts of posts and making them a straw man since 2004.
Yid-ol
Just-outside Edinburgh
- Jan 16, 2006
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Dier is good at what he is needed to do for Tottenham but not for England.
With Tottenham he has players like Dembele and Eriksen just ahead of him to do alot of the attacking and creative part of the game, where as for England he doesn't have the same type of players next to him and expected to be more creative.
I never expected Dier to come out of the Belgium game with any praise due to this and not fussed about it as he will come back to us and still do a job!
With Tottenham he has players like Dembele and Eriksen just ahead of him to do alot of the attacking and creative part of the game, where as for England he doesn't have the same type of players next to him and expected to be more creative.
I never expected Dier to come out of the Belgium game with any praise due to this and not fussed about it as he will come back to us and still do a job!
glospur
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Good post. I mean there's absolutely nothing of substance there, no rebuttal, no evidence, but yeah, good contribution.
SpursSince1980
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I still strongly believe he would make for an excellent center back if he was willing to commit to that position. He has the ability to be a solid, albeit unspectacular defensive midfielder. If Winks hadn't gotten injured and totally lost form, he might have been picked ahead of Dier in midfield, for this England team. Moreover, Dier is fortunate insomuch that there really does seem to be a lack of competition-ready midfielders for England at the moment. Of course that can change dramatically over the next four years when the likes of Folden and others mature and emerge as talents in that space. Leaving Dier spot in that area of the team up for major debate. I see the writing on the wall for him as a midfielder in the coming years -- as far as England is concerned. There will be better and more talented options methinks. So, i hope he's honest with himself to perhaps see that and make a decisive decision to move to CB, where he could have a big future for us and England.
Bus-Conductor
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Nonsense. Those attributes and traits are based on the fact that I've/we've seen them from him time and time and time and time and time again. That's why I 'assume (it's not actually an assumption. it's observed, demonstrable fact)' that he does these things.
Also, I'm not sure why being a good on field leader and organiser is something to sneer at, and it's ridiculous to reduce him to a shouter and pointer. That's not all he is, and it's incredibly unfair to characterise him as such.
Wanyama did it, but not to the same quality. He doesn't have the same positional instincts having not played permanently at CB before, and nor is he as competent as playing out from the back in a back three. he's more of a ball carrier rather than passer, and is more of an energetic presser from midfield, unlike Dier, who is far more positionally astute.
But no, you're right. Eric Dier is not Sergio Busquets. But then Jan isn't Beckenbauer either, nor is Lamela the same as Maradonna while we're comparing players to arguably the best of all time their position. What a weird reason to criticise him.
Well, that's for Pochettino to decide, and I'm certainly not him. But from our squad now, he's the best option for that position and has demonstrated on a number of tims that not only can he fill in at CM in Pochettino's system, but he can carry our his instructions more than competently,
Also, maybe, just maybe, as the evidence suggests, Pochettino is more than happy with how Dier fits into teh structure of the team as a DM and what he offers in relation to the actual instructions given.
LOL because I said that him dropping between the CBs makes him a defensive genius.
BC- cherry picking parts of posts and making them a straw man since 2004.
But I didn't only respond to one of your points. That was the third or fourth one. Now you've just wasted that meme you've been saving for ages to chuck at someone.
glospur
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Point to where I said him dropping between the CBs makes him a 'defensive genius' and I'll concede the point, otherwise that's an obvious strawman.
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glospur
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Depends on the system we're playing. At Spurs, if it's a back 3 I like him as the central or right-sided CB. I've said before that I'm not the biggest fan of him playing in midfield when Pochettino plays his 3 at the back system, which is different from England's obviously because we generally still have two midfield sitters, because that role takes away some of his biggest strengths and forces him to play a role that exposes his biggest weaknesses. As BC rightly says, our best football came with Dier in a back three and Wanyama-Dembele making up the duo in midfield, but the best football we've played with a back 4 is with Dier in midfield imo.
If we're playing a back 4, then I think he's the best option for DM in the squad atm because of the reasons I mentioned above. If, as rumoured, we move to a 4-3-3 type system next year with Dele and Eriksen as the advanced midfielders, then I think he is by far and away the best option for the anchor man/halfback/whatever fancy new term FM has for that position. In fact, I think that would be the ideal role for him to play.
Bus-Conductor
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You didn't use the word genius, but you did say:
And in answer to this:
If this is referring to Pochettino, then the previous season, our best season for 50 years, he didn't pick him, he picked Wanyama instead and played Dier more often as a CB. Why do you think that was?
And could one of the reasons that he picked him so often last season be the long term injury to Wanyama and the struggle for fitness of Dembele (and Winks)?
Because the "bst defensive coach in the league" has openly stated he doesn't see Dier as a CM, but as a CB.
johnbowel
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- Jan 21, 2015
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Dier’s best position is always the one in which he hasn’t been playing.
He looked fantastic against Everton a few years back but for the last couple of years he’s been a passenger. He doesn’t move, doesn’t make tackles, doesn’t make interceptions and has zero workrate. His tendency to turn a fairly routine tackle into a thuggish foul has also become really ugly, and I’m a bit sick of the gormless tough-man/blow-up doll like expression that comes after. I don’t mind a defensive mid who lets the opposition know he’s there, but these aren’t even deliberate fouls, they’re the result of poor timing and the huffing and puffing just looks increasingly like it’s masking a growing insecurity about being unable to keep up. There’s just so much mental and physical dullness about him.
He looked fantastic against Everton a few years back but for the last couple of years he’s been a passenger. He doesn’t move, doesn’t make tackles, doesn’t make interceptions and has zero workrate. His tendency to turn a fairly routine tackle into a thuggish foul has also become really ugly, and I’m a bit sick of the gormless tough-man/blow-up doll like expression that comes after. I don’t mind a defensive mid who lets the opposition know he’s there, but these aren’t even deliberate fouls, they’re the result of poor timing and the huffing and puffing just looks increasingly like it’s masking a growing insecurity about being unable to keep up. There’s just so much mental and physical dullness about him.
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