Match Threads Everton vs Spurs - Match Thread - FA Cup Rd 5

UbeAstard said:

From day one I thought all the raving (when there was raving over him) was OTT.

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The thing is you buy players because they are doing well, playing week in week out, their touch and match fitness are there, the confidence that comes with playing week after week is there, then you say OK here's ten minutes or here's a game once every five. to come in and prove your worth.
For some that may be enough to make an impact and demand more minutes.

it's all very well saying we should have got Watkins/Deeney/Wilson (not specifically you) but who's to say they wouldn't have struggled the same way without the regular game time they are used to getting.

I've seen some good from him, some decent touches and finishes/shots but at the moment he seems heavy and struggling for mobility, which could easily be a bi-product of lack of game time. it the old chicken and the egg; he needs game time to look better but needs to look better to get more game time...

rupsmith said:

I posted this on another thread and think it is particularly relevant today after the options Jose had on the bench.

Many of the squad are technically limited players or have reached their peak/declining - Winks, Alli, Aurier, Sissoko, Lamela, Lloris etc, Quite a few people say that Moura, Davidson are a part of that.

The harsh reality is we dont have quality in the squad. The minimal that we do have is world class. If they are absent or having an off day, we look very very ordinary which is reflective of the quality of the squad. Poch at his peak had the likes of Walker, Toby, Jan, Rose, Dembele, Wanayama, Eriksen - all in the prime of their careers. Any of those players at that point in time of their careers would walk into our current first 11. Imagine Dembele in a Mourinho team.

For the first and last 12 months under Poch we were very very ordinary. Those 2-3 windows of no activity at the end have really hurt the squad and I won’t blame only Levy. He had the stadium to take care of and Poch was very picky in his choices. There is blame to go around. Poch generally did a very good job but the squad he left behind and which Jose has been working with has been very poor. Vinicius Bale Doherty Reguilon are not playing in an easy league or a mid table team. Bloody Brighton can turn up and play like Barcelona on a given day.

Yes we don’t look good now - but in this crammed schedule and with the covid thing no team looks good except maybe City. Chelsea are poor, Liverpool are poor, United are dross anyway but are picking up points, Leicester and West Ham are getting results which is indicative of this season - topsy turvy.

I will stick with Jose unless he alienates the whole squad - then it’s too expensive to fix. I won’t sack him over a few results.

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Objective analysis I thought.

CrazyHeart said:

But I think calling us mediocre mid table etc. etc. is a bit of a stretch personally... but to each their own!

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Our form since early Dec seems to indicate that we are a team incapable on finishing higher than 9th or 10th, based on current form. We keep on keeping on like this, I don't see us finishing anywhere above that. Which, I'm kinda at peace with. Sorta is what it is, you know? I just don't think we have the players or even (potentially) the right long-term manager to turn this around. At least not this season.

Jose is no mug. He is certainly trying hard to make it work. But lord knows, you can plan and plan and plan, but it all it takes, is in the first min of a game, for some cretin (whose name rhymes with pinnoko) to wave their arm around like an orchestra conductor in the 18 yard box, and award a penalty in the most important game we've been in, since 1991.

I know that was a while back, yet it is so indicative of the dumb shit our players often are culpable of doing.

Tonight's nail in the coffin was bought to us by Winksy LLC and some brain dead defending from Doherty. Winks inexplicably lost his bearings in midfield, turned the ball over, and 10 seconds later, they score. That sort of numptiness has become a trademark of this team in recent years. It has to be nullified. Which means, a sizable turnover has to happen. Which is almost impossible, given the current financial climate.

So, yes... I do feel we are and will be a mid-table, Wolves-level sort of team for the foreseeable future. Unless something highly unexpected happens over the summer... like we sell the club to a traziollionaire!

doctor stefan Freud said:

I’m really not sure the extent of Mourinho’s shortcomings or not in terms of our ineffectiveness, but one thing is certain, Levy and the transfer committee need to throw everything into reshaping this squad in the summer. There are so many abysmal players that we have to shift or we’re just going to keep sinking into the mire of mediocrity

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absolutely. This should be the focus of fan ire. We have far too many awful players in the squad and until they are replaced with better let’s forget being competitive. This squad is way passed its sell by date.

Chello90 said:

Suspect Levy will manager to shift 2 of those at the very most. We are deteriorating and fast.

We need need to stop renewing contracts for average squad players for the fear of losing them for free. Ultimately it ends up costing us more than if we sold them for a relatively low fee. Instead they end up stealing a living, preventing us from progressing as a squad and eventually we have to turn to them in games like today.

Honestly sick of seeing Winks and Sissoko play for my team. Even worse when it's at the same fudging time.

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Spot on. Levy needs to sell the likes of Winks, Dier, Davies, Alli, Moura, Sissoko, Doherty, Sanchez. Accept we may need to sell cheaper just to get them off the books to ensure we can then replace with new talent and actually improve our squad.

I sincerely hope and pray we finally see the much needed overhaul this summer otherwise the next few years will be glum as we are going nowhere with those players above in our squad.

rupsmith said:

I posted this on another thread and think it is particularly relevant today after the options Jose had on the bench.

Many of the squad are technically limited players or have reached their peak/declining - Winks, Alli, Aurier, Sissoko, Lamela, Lloris etc, Quite a few people say that Moura, Davidson are a part of that.

The harsh reality is we dont have quality in the squad. The minimal that we do have is world class. If they are absent or having an off day, we look very very ordinary which is reflective of the quality of the squad. Poch at his peak had the likes of Walker, Toby, Jan, Rose, Dembele, Wanayama, Eriksen - all in the prime of their careers. Any of those players at that point in time of their careers would walk into our current first 11. Imagine Dembele in a Mourinho team.

For the first and last 12 months under Poch we were very very ordinary. Those 2-3 windows of no activity at the end have really hurt the squad and I won’t blame only Levy. He had the stadium to take care of and Poch was very picky in his choices. There is blame to go around. Poch generally did a very good job but the squad he left behind and which Jose has been working with has been very poor. Vinicius Bale Doherty Reguilon are not playing in an easy league or a mid table team. Bloody Brighton can turn up and play like Barcelona on a given day.

Yes we don’t look good now - but in this crammed schedule and with the covid thing no team looks good except maybe City. Chelsea are poor, Liverpool are poor, United are dross anyway but are picking up points, Leicester and West Ham are getting results which is indicative of this season - topsy turvy.

I will stick with Jose unless he alienates the whole squad - then it’s too expensive to fix. I won’t sack him over a few results.

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I largely agree but I do think Lamela still has a lot to offer so I wouldn't put him in the same sentence as Alli or Winks. His work-rate alone is enough to warrant that, let alone his tenacity, hunger and skill - but that's just me!

Agreed that Mourinho inherited a team on the decline that Poch just couldn’t do any more with... the fact that Jose had defibs to try n jumpstart things was admirable but the players do need to step up ... while it’s not the greatest squad I believe it’s still good enough to pull something of vale off this season.

rez9000 said:

That's your argument? OK.

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Take no offense, mate. I debate with my shadow all the time. Though, I do find it annoying that they always seem to get the last word!!

razzmaster said:

I thought his positioning was off for both their 4th and 5th goals.

First goal was poor too.

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Didn't even try and close the angle. Hologram.

A lot of positive things to take from today, as well as negatives of course. Going out of the cup probably isn't the worst thing for us, the match was bizarre and unlikely to be replicated. We were really undone by 5 minutes of madness, and an opposition who took their chances. Hojberg also had a very poor game defensively, but I don't believe that this will be a trend (though his form hasn't been as good as earlier in the season generally recently) Outside of that, yes there were issues, but I don't think I've seen us create this much in a long time and it's against a very good team. So good and bad.

Thankfully being a cup tie, it won't affect our objectives outside that competition and I hope we can learn from that and find a bit more balance. I like that we are looking to play with the ball rather than kick it long and hope for the best, and that's a good continuation from the weekend. I just hope this won't be used as an excuse to go back to before. There is no reason why you can't use the ball effectively, even if not amazingly, and defend well as a unit. Ultimately, we will see what happens, but we looked dangerous without Kane and good on the ball, and while irritated we lost, and the lack of confidence and organisation defensively, I do feel that there are positive signs.

Changing the way a team will have hiccups on the way, I'm not sure how many hiccups Mourinho will be allowed but I am prepared to treat the goals conceded today to be an outlier and even playing in the same way, I doubt we will concede 5 again this season.

Missed Everton’s fifth but judging by the reactions on the Spurs Instagram account it seeks Winks at have been at fault?

jeremystorey said:

You know what? I'm fed up. And lots of folks like you are making similar comments... so no offense, but you're gonna be the target of my ire...

This agenda about Jose has now reached nonsensical and laughable standards. What planet are you living on? Have you played football before? Do you understand a single thing going on out on the field?

You finally got the attacking approach you've been berating Jose for, over the last three months. But oh, now it's crap, 'cos dumb Jose doesn't teach our defense how to defend properly when we attack?? We score four goals, yet somehow, the defensive prevented us from scoring more? And 'cos of our attacking intent, the defense just made mistake after mistake, 'cos again, Jose has trained them to be the living personification of the four Stooges?

Let's look at some facts shall we:

1. First goal Everton score comes from a horrendous fuck up from PEH followed by an appalling attempt at a save.
2. Second goal, comes from our midfield, again making a mistake, and our defense NOT CLOSING DOWN.
3. Third goal comes from PEH making another mistake. accompanied by a kindly ref decision.
4. Dav switches off (not for the first time), Lloris again takes a bad position and Richarlison scores a cracking shot.
5. Is similar to 4. Again, aided by a dumbass ref decision.

We score 4 goals... but that ain't enough, apparently. We attack, but that's also shit according to you. We make amateurish defensive mistakes, but that is also Jose's fault.

Is COVID also his fault?

All of their goals resulted from either stupid DEFENDING errors or poor decision making in our midfield. It was bad luck and rank stupidity that lost us the game. Not tactics. Not strategy. Not management.

Seriously... how, the hell is that the manager's fault? Get over your agenda for one second, and maybe just accept, that we had a really shitty day in the office. And lots of our staff make gaffe after gaffe. Jose (for once) is not to blame for that sad sack of shit we saw today. That was just a set of defenders and midfielders playing a game of who can do their best impression of Calamity Jane.

Moreover, you've been baying at the moon for us to be more expansive. Guess what? We were. Guess what? We conceded 5 goals, 'cos Jose knows our defenders are clowns.

Yet somehow, in your mind, that is all Jose's fault?

I'm just done with folks on SC who can't seem to separate their hatred for the man from actual reality.

Tonight was absolute shit. It was the very definition of SPURSY. And our manager deserves no responsibility for today's shit show. He is not the excuse for Everton winning. That is 100% on the players, who again proved to the world that the majority of them have the mentality of a timid squirrel. We fucked up royally. Any no chuffing manager in the universe could do a thing about how our players handled themselves. They were a joke at the back. Simple as that. Just accept it for what it is. And stop trying to find reasons to blame the one person who was least to blame for that humiliation.

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This is pretty much what I've been screaming in my head for months!

My message to the targets of jeremy's ire is: you should take a long hard look at yourselves and ask if you're not letting your personal dislike motivate your thinking. There are lots of football professionals I don't like, e.g. Mason Mount. The thought of his existence makes me want to puke. I really, really detest him. But I don't call him a shit player. My dislike is completely irrational, but I retain enough rationality to know that it's irrational and leave myself able to judge him according to what he does, not what I might think he is. Our manager, whoever he happens to be deserves that, at the very least.

I don't seek to delegitimise what Mount does well simply because I don't like him. Firstly because all I'm doing is deluding myself; secondly, I gain no advantage from it; and thirdly, it demonstrates a lack of integrity. If that's all fine for some, there's very little one can say. But it's not honest, it's not constrctive and it's certainly not admirable.

I'm not picking on you @L.S.U.Yiddo - just that your post is gleefully taken up as evidence of a failing, when in actual fact it's not as black and white as some would like to believe:

L.S.U.Yiddo said:

The problem with the cautious setup is it invites pressure which in turn causes our defenders to make mistakes. Regardless of how we setup our defence isn't good enough. Personally, I'd rather we attack and pin our hopes on Kane and Co. being able to outscore our defensive mistakes than sit back and suffer through performances like Brighton.

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Setting up defensively may invite more pressure, however, what it also does is give you a greater chance of recovering from a defensive mistake, because your other defenders are closer at hand. That's important because if you know that your defenders are prone to errors, what do you want: your other defenders spread further up the pitch leaving the mistake-maker isolated and giving you pretty much no chance of recovering from the mistake or at least give yourself an outside chance of recovery by having someone closer at hand?

It's actually a false assertion, because then the logical conclusion of 'if you defend, you invite pressure' is actually to play with no defenders, right? Put all eleven players in the offensive third and you'd never concede, right? No. That's absurd. You need to have some form of defence and if your defence is fundamentally weak you don't assist that defensive frailty by leaving it exposed. You try to mitigate it.

dbspurs said:

Play free flowing attacking football - get beat

Play counter attacking, low block football - get beat

Penny for Jose's thoughts having to deal with this average, mentally weak squad.

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I've quoted you @dbspurs because I agree and there's food for thought in there.

I think we've played the former recently because the players started to get all pissy and moany about playing the latter, leading to us getting beaten in the latter and so Jose instituted the former. And then we got beat again.

You're 100% right, in my view, that the player's mentality has let them down. They need to STFU, knuckle down, listen to what the manager is asking them to do and endure playing in a way they may not like, so that when he's had the chance to fully mould the team into what he wants, they can then start playing in a way they do like. And if, because of our chairman, he doesn't get the chance to fully mould the team, he at least is giving them an outside chance of winning something.

I'm hoping that everyone (fans, players and, please God, the chairman) will have all the evidence they need as to:

Why Dele has not justified a starting place;
Why Winks is not justified a starting place; and
Why everyone needs to listen to a manager because he may just know what he's doing.

My message to the players would be: stop getting in the manager's way and maybe, just maybe, he'll help you win some bleeding silverware.

Dannyspur said:

Lloris didn't get near a shot all evening

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He made one fabulous save in the first half (overall he made 5 saves for what it's worth) but he did make a mistake, his save against Calvert Lewin was world-class. Almost all of the goals conceded were from close range with no pressure on the ball. I don't really think you can expect too much.

he first one he didn't get a proper hand to it, and probably feels he should have saved it, but it was shot with such venom from a close range, it would take a good save to stop that. I think it is a mistake, but not a particularly major one, it looks worse than it is because of how close it comes to him, but it was a phenomenal strike and without getting your body or a firm hand that goes in, very little margin for error.

second and third goal, no fault at all. The 4th, I don't think you can blame him at all, it was a perfect strike by Richardson, he actually got the slightest of touches onto it, but at full stretch. Possibly you could say he was positioned a bit too close to his near post, but that would be harsh. Another great Everton goal, that was a very tough angle. Maybe he could have saved it. But it would have to be something special. Again it was, a shot from 6 yards or whatever, if you hit it hard and on target it takes incredible reactions to even get close. 5th goal, like the first one, it's volleyed goal from up close, finished very well, could save it, maybe, but it would be pretty exceptional. I don't think you can blame him for that. In all honestly, in 4th and 5th goals if you hit it with such power and accuracy at that range and the goalkeeper is in a decent position, I don't think you can blame the goalkeeper. All you can really do is make yourself big and hope that they hit it close to you.

So overall I would say he made one mistake, for the first goal, but I don't think it was a howler either.

The attacking belief was back tonight. Until Ndombele came off, you could feel that the boys believed they could score at any minute. When Winks came on, that dynamic changed.

Son, Lucas, Lamela, Kane, and Bergwijn all put in a shift. When was the last time we were able to equalize after being two goals down? Ajax?


Keep that attacking output up and it's all down to the defenders ability to cut out their individual errors. Or for Levy to open up his purse strings and buy a new defender or two. While I'm not convinced our fullbacks were the main issue, I do think we would've conceded less with Reguilon and Aurier.

Ouch

jonnyrotten said:

Ouch

View attachment 82507

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I'm surprised we outperformed our xG as when we had 12 shots on goal, 29 in total..

Interesting hearing some pundits tonight... less ire at Jose, but now saying that there is simply something rancid with the club in general. Which inevitably turns to... Harry needs to leave.

VoteMe4Prez said:

Does anyone think Jose might quit at the end of the season? Just asking the question. I would hope not but nothing in this world surprises me.

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In his position, if it was me, I'd would be thinking about it. Maybe not all that seriously, but it would have crossed my mind. Because if I've been hired by someone to fulfil an objective, and I have my experience and history to point to, and my employer then blocks aspects of my plans to fulfil that objective, then I'd consider resignation, yes.

If we don't win anything then he may not want to, but the decision may be taken without him. If he does win something, then he may just feel it's all too much work for very little reward (especially with the press and some of the fans always gunning for him too) and just walk away with his record of winning with every club still intact. He'd miss out on a fair chunk of wedge, but he's not exactly poor.

anydange said:

Missed Everton’s fifth but judging by the reactions on the Spurs Instagram account it seeks Winks at have been at fault?

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I mean he made a mistake on the leadup to the goal but I wouldn't say he was at fault. Winks lost the ball cheaply in the middle, but Sanchez covered for his mistake, and we were in a good position to defend it regardless. I mean we were 7 against 4. The main issue is half our team were caught ball watching, basically just moving to where the ball was and panicking rather than maintaining shape.

It was great skill and ball by Sigg, and some credit must go there, it wasn't an absolutely terrible goal to concede, I would, however, say that Doherty was probably the one with the biggest burden in that goal, He was ball watching rather than following Bernard and actually stepped up to try and play him offside even though he was right in front of him and should know that he was going to be well on. Mind Lamela should have tracked his run rather than getting sucked in and marking space, Hojberg should have also been aware of the danger and was out of position in covering for Toby who was putting pressure on the ball. So it was a collective effort really.

beuller said:

It was a spectacle. And it was nice to see us show some bravery going forwards.

But I dont really get us as a football team. We have the best striker in the league (goals and assists), we've conceded the 2nd least amount of goals .... and yet.... we are really really poorly balanced.

We clearly either dont have the players the manager wants for his system and the chairman has to fix it. Or the chairman needs to find a manager to get the best out of this team.

I dont think any of us know what to expect in the next game, other than Harry kane being far to good for this shit.

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He sacked our last manager for that very reason. So ultimately, the question isn't whether a new manager can get the best out of them, but rather whether what the chairman thinks the best this team can do is more than the best they can actually deliver....

bigblue said:

The chairman gets criticised... no problem.
The players get criticised... no problem.
Sell the dross!... no problem.

The manager gets criticised... and a group on here get awfully precious and start throwing around words like ‘agenda’ and ‘narrative’ instead of opinion.

Honestly... some of you take more offence than Jose would!

One geezer just had a pop at a bloke who wasn’t even criticising Jose FFS!

If you’re gonna try and claim the moral high ground by saying we all need to get behind the manager and support the club... fine... but don’t start posting lists of players who are shit and don’t deserve the shirt. At best you look hypocritical...

Do you honestly, truly believe that even the most ardent anti-Mourinho SC member actually wants Spurs to lose so they can pop in here and say ‘I told you so!’

I can’t believe it.
I won’t believe it.
If we’re in here it means we LOVE Spurs.

I know I speak truth because I fucking despised Sherwood - but when we lost under him it hurt just as much as losing under Poch (who I loved).

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You'd have a stronger point, buddy if it wasn't for the fact that there have been actual posts on SC by people saying they want Spurs to lose so that Mourinho would be sacked all the sooner.

It's pretty hard to define that as anything other than agenda, isn't it?

EDIT: Noticed that shadydan had already raised the above point, so please feel free to ignore my repetition of it.

rez9000 said:

He sacked our last manager for that very reason. So ultimately, the question isn't whether a new manager can get the best out of them, but rather whether what the chairman thinks the best this team can do is more than the best they can actually deliver....

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We know that they can deliver good results though, we have literally seen that under Mourinho. The main reason for our position in the PL is not finishing off teams which we are better than. Normally in games, we took the lead than invited pressure back onto ourselves. This is my issue with the argument. I think the situation hasn't been helped by early-season unexpected title hopes, but the team is clearly capable of delivering top 4, seeing as form-wise we have been there about since Mourinho has taken charge. The problem with Jose is that how our team was playing before for the majority of his tenure, it does mean that the top end of expectations has to be met to sustain that right. Otherwise, people will turn.

For what it's worth 5 minutes of madness aside we were the better team against Everton and I do have hopes that Mourinho can have us playing better stuff and be successful with it. Everton are a good team, and away from home I'd normally take a draw. If this was a PL game that's what we'd have finished with, it was a weird game, they happen sometimes, I think you play the same game, in the same way, 20-30 times I doubt you'd see 9 goals. Football is a weird thing and the way that the game progressed created a frantic panicked game on both sides, and thus you get weird results. Our first one of the season, but Man Utd and Liverpool have both had stranger games with worse outcomes.