Jose Mourinho

Styopa · Mar 16, 2021

rez9000 said:
It's not the point I'm making. It wasn't specific to Otter. It's the thread always getting bogged down in the same thing - and it's not just him, it's not just me, it's not just the 'pro's or the 'anti's - it's all of us. "Mourinho's to blame!", "No, he's not!", "Yes, he is!", "No, he's not!". It becomes like a pantomime.

If we take that aspect of it out, we can have much more interesting discussions. And I'm just as to blame (ha!) for it happening, so I'm not absolving myself of it.

Well this is the Mourinho thread right? A certain amount of debate is always going to revolve around the quality of job he is doing or am I missing something here? ?‍

Seafordian Spurs · Mar 16, 2021

Metalhead said:
You'd think that it wouldn't be impossible to apply one's experience to today's footballing world. Ranieri managed it.

Yup, fair point but that was (quite evidently) very much a one off and a year down the line Jose hasn't had any impact in terms if making us contenders other than for a few minutes utilising his patented brand of football.

I want Jose to succeed. I don't think Jose 'isn't the right fit for Spurs' (frankly, beggars can't be choosers) but blimey there's a chronic disconnect betwixt Jose the winner and us right now.

rez9000 · Mar 16, 2021

Styopa said:
Well this is the Mourinho thread right? A certain amount of debate is always going to revolve around the quality of job he is doing or am I missing something here? ?‍

It's only the blame aspect of it. It carries such a charged meaning that it puts people on the defensive. I think I just got tired of seeing it and the usual responses to it.

C-oops · Mar 16, 2021

Trix said:
My hope is that Mourinho has won so much (especially cup finals) the players might start believing it's actually possible. He's always had a way of overcoming the odds in cup competitions and in the short term I don't care how he achieves that as long as he does.

They are going to have to suspend belief in the grinding reality of the foootball we are and have been playing for a year for that to happen. Footballers may be detatched from the real world at times but they aren't living in cloud cuckoo land.

talkshowhost86 · Mar 16, 2021

rez9000 said:
I see. So when any other manager is in charge, the financial clout of the other clubs is a factor, but when it's Mourinho, it isn't.

Understood.

EDIT: At the time of writing we were seventh.

I'm not sure you do understand.

I've always said we would do very well to overhaul clubs that were spending more than us. If Jose was getting us to 4th it would be over-achievement, something which I've said repeatedly over the Levy years.

But the way Mourinho is currently managing this club, we won't get to 4th, or 5th which is around par for the club. And none of that is due to a lack of winning mentality within the club.

ohtottenham! · Mar 16, 2021

rez9000 said:
That's simply not the case, buddy. He did it all the time.

But that's arse-about-face. Did Man City expect Pep to adapt to them? Did Liverpool expect Klopp to adapt to them? Why do we give ourselves the right to maintain a nebulous identity in the face of an experienced coach? Every manager has the right to expect the club that hires them to mould to adapt to his vision. That's what a manager is for. Else how would young managers develop their styles, their tactics, their approach to the game if the club determines how they should operate?

Why? Because he chooses to play a certain way that we think may have been defensive. Again, it goes back to the idea of the dog wagging the tail. For a club to force a manager to work a particular way would basically be saying their executive (be that a board or individual chairman) runs the footballing side of the club, rather than the manager being brought in to manage. So why hire a manager at all?

And this last point again works on an assumption rather than something evidential - you're assuming that Mourinho set us up to play defensive, even though his actions on the touchline, the words that he and playing staff have said suggests the exact opposite.

And finally, if he did choose to play defensively (which as I say I highly doubt), it would have been because he felt it was the best way of getting a result. It's very easy to judge after the fact, far harder when you don't know what's going to happen. That's the difference between being a supporter and being a manager. We can contentedly or unhappily dissect a match and point out all the flaws and then cast judgement on the abilities of he who made them - managers don't have that luxury.

I look to see what's happening on the pitch first. Have no problem with a defensive setup, attacking setup etc., They don't actually mean much without context. Set us up to do our best against Arsenal with the squad we have would have been a good start. Didn't see that with the lineup with Doherty, nor did I see that in the actual game with needed adjustments. Didn't matter if we had a 433, 4231 etc., to me, as long as there was a clear plan.

There was a lot of team confusion out on the pitch on Sunday, a whole lot, and an Arsenal team making the most of it. Jose Mourinho is the coach overseeing that. It was an important game, and I hope we improve going forward

rez9000 · Mar 16, 2021

talkshowhost86 said:
I'm not sure you do understand.

I've always said we would do very well to overhaul clubs that were spending more than us. If Jose was getting us to 4th it would be over-achievement, something which I've said repeatedly over the Levy years.

But the way Mourinho is currently managing this club, we won't get to 4th, or 5th which is around par for the club. And none of that is due to a lack of winning mentality within the club.

So, essentially you're saying that because he's not overachieving, i.e. doing better than can be expected, he's somehow deficient?

ilikeost · Mar 16, 2021

Johnny J said:
He's just not getting the best out of our players, for whatever reason. Neither was Poch in his last year.

Can't wait for the same excuse for the squad when we are discussing sacking the next manager. The players are the major issue, no one is winning anything major with this squad. Too many mediocre players.

Johnny J · Mar 16, 2021

ilikeost said:
Can't wait for the same excuse for the squad when we are discussing sacking the next manager. The players are the major issue, no one is winning anything major with this squad. Too many mediocre players.

These things aren't mutually exclusive. We do have too many mediocre players and Jose is failing to get the best out of them.

There's no perfect solution. Personally I think the squad isn't as good as Levy clearly thought it was when he hired Jose, not as bad as the style of play and results at the moment suggest.

ohtottenham! · Mar 16, 2021

rez9000 said:
So, essentially you're saying that because he's not overachieving, i.e. doing better than can be expected, he's somehow deficient?

That's not what he's saying!

rez9000 · Mar 16, 2021

ohtottenham! said:
I look to see what's happening on the pitch first. Have no problem with a defensive setup, attacking setup etc., They don't actually mean much without context. Set us up to do our best against Arsenal with the squad we have would have been a good start. Didn't see that with the lineup with Doherty, nor did I see that in the actual game with needed adjustments. Didn't matter if we had a 433, 4231 etc., to me, as long as there was a clear plan.

There was a lot of team confusion out on the pitch on Sunday, a whole lot, and an Arsenal team making the most of it. Jose Mourinho is the coach overseeing that. It was an important game, and I hope we improve going forward

And that's what prompted the thought about post- and pre-judgement.

Doherty and Bale had linked up really well in the last couple of games. In the same way Sanchez and Toby had. None of us questioned the CB pairing. So although we may have had misgivings about Doherty being left exposed by Tierney's threat, there's an argument that the threat that Bale and Doherty could have posed along that flank would have caused more problems for them than that exposure would cause us.

Bale's form in particular up until Sunday led to suggestions that he alone would cause Arsenal untold headaches. That he didn't provide them can't be down to the tactics employed - he just wasn't on it. There's no legislating for that. If he'd been as good as he had been before then, that could have caused Tierney to drop back, reducing the threat he posed to Doherty. It's all ifs and maybes.

Again, being forensic after the outcome is very easy. Doing it before or even within the game is far harder. Some have said that JM should have changed things around when he saw the problems. But how often do you see a defender, particularly, being pulled off in the first half? And his subbing Sissoko for Bale, in my mind, suggests that he did try to change things when he saw they simply weren't going to work. People also seem to forget that he'd already used one of his three subs and to then use a second would have left us with only one possible change later in the game. Not that he foresaw it, but Lamela's red shows how problematic lack of subs can be. If I remember rightly, once Coco went off we had no one else to bring on, so had to reshuffle those on the pitch already.

Cogent arguments can be made for all of his decisions on Sunday. They might not have come off, but that doesn't devalue them simply because there are no guarantees.

talkshowhost86 · Mar 16, 2021

jimbo said:
You're point was that the cultural problem doesn't have a genuine effect, but if you've changed it now to one about our problems only solvable through massive investment then I partially agree. That is one way to get us over the line - though Liverpool have been throwing that kind of money around for the 30 years it took them to finally win another league title so I think your simplification is way off.

It wasn't that they had the money to spend on a centre-back, it was that the entire club had been realigned with an ambitious new owner with an understanding of how to run a succesful sporting 'franchise'. Their next move will be interesting now that it appears a cycle has come to an end. We've spent £70m on a single player too, but it doesn't seem to have got us anywhere.

You rightly pointed out that our average position is 6th, that we are the 6th best team in England - and that the teams above us have greater resources. You didn't say what you thought we should do about it, if anything - do we accept that or do we try to change it? What can we do about it? Pochettino talked about 'changing the narrative' so he understood part of the problem. There are other clubs in a similar place to us - Everton for example - but the narrative around them isn't as toxic for some reason.

The infrastructure investment, the marketing, all the back office stuff is obviously to try to grow our resources and stature but we still have the culture issue - as did Man City, as did Liverpool to a lesser extent. I understand you never wanted Mourinho from the start, but if there was a manager who might be able to drag us kicking and screaming over the line he wasn't a bad shout. It isn't working out, though I will still wait until the season is over to judge him fully (fat lot of difference it makes either way) - what's next?

Personally, I think all your clever arguments are wasted on the wrong end of the horse. Pretending that it's all Mourinho's fault and that a new manager will solve it just isn't going to work in my opinion, we need more change than that.

Though I am looking forward to a new man coming in so the battle lines can be re-drawn and we can all swap arguments. Will it be 'English-coach vs Fancy-foreigner'? 'Experienced-man vs Fresh-ideas'? Perhaps I'll join the 'didn't want him from the start' crew this time, just for the lols. Whoever it is, we'll be doing this over and over and over again until we change the things that can really make a difference.

I haven't changed the point at all.

The argument is whether there is some deep-seated cultural problem that suggests Spurs can never win anything. I don't believe, and have never believed, that was true, and the point I was making was that if we were suddenly the richest club in the world, this idea of us lacking a 'winning mentality' would be forgotten instantly, because history shows that money counts.

I just completely disagree about there being a 'culture issue' at the club as a whole. Under Poch the club was consistently over-achieving until the end. Hell, even under Harry we managed it a couple of times. None of that was due to them instilling a 'winning mentality' in the players. It was about them, in very different ways, getting the best out of their squads.

Mourinho simply isn't anywhere near to doing that. My concern about him from the start was that he has basically become a myth rather than a good manager. He believes he instills 'winning mentality' and that seems to be all he does. He hugely underachieved at United even with the Europa League win, and that's why he was out on his ear fairly swiftly.

I don't believe for a second that a new manager will suddenly make us win trophies, just as I didn't when we hired Mourinho. I equally don't entirely agree that trophies are the be-all and end all, and certainly wouldn't see winning the League Cup as a massive feather in Jose's cap.

But a new manager would at least potentially look towards a more progressive approach, as Poch did when he first came in. Mourinho is stuck in the past and his fabled 'winning mentality' simply isn't enough (clearly).

My argument is that's largely because he's not a very good manager, not because the club as whole has a cultural issue.

Archibald&Crooks · Mar 16, 2021

ilikeost said:
Can't wait for the same excuse for the squad when we are discussing sacking the next manager. The players are the major issue, no one is winning anything major with this squad. Too many mediocre players.

We all see this in different ways, i've said a few times now that we have a squad full of very good players, certainly not, in my onion, mediocre, that's harsh

They are all good players on their day, it's the consistency that they lack, they just don't have enough 'on their day' games.........maybe in one or two cases age is starting to show too. There are certainly a few who are good but not quite good enough or the wrong type of player but i'm not sure mediocre would fit although they aren't doing much to prove me wrong right now

The list of 'disposables' is a lengthy one though. The painful rebuild we were told we required is turning out to to be exactly that, we're seeing it now and it would probably be like that under any manager. People say we'd play better under a new manager and maybe we would, but would the the results follow? I have my doubts. As for Mourinho, I like him and want him to stay but I must admit i've wobbled a bit but still I think i'd give him another season.

talkshowhost86 · Mar 16, 2021

rez9000 said:
So, essentially you're saying that because he's not overachieving, i.e. doing better than can be expected, he's somehow deficient?

No.

Essentially I'm saying he's underachieving.

And that he's deficient.

jimbo · Mar 16, 2021

This is where I'm at currently - in the 'see where we are at the end of the season' thing.

If we win the Europa League, then I'd give him next season - largely because I don't see who can come in this summer and because to win that tournament we will have to have put in some performances.
Finishing top four would be similar, but that seems extremely unlikely - there's a case for finishing 5th as well, in that we would have to have seen some improvement during the run-in and it shows something of the right trajectory, but I'm variable on this.
Winning the League Cup isn't enough for me personally, especially if we finish outside the top 6 and end up in the Europa Conference as a result - a competition which sounds like hot garbage.

The unknowable stuff seems more important though, like can we afford to sack him this season? What is Levy thinking/what are his criteria? My feeling is (and this is different to what I might want) we will give him another season - partly because of the circumstances of this one, partly because of the cost involved in parting ways early, and partly because there don't seem to be many obvious candidates to replace him. Whether I think he's the right person for the job or not hangs on the last point - becuase if he isn't (and at the moment I can totally see why others feel that he isn't) I'm just not sure who is that we can realistically get. The attainable candidates seem either too green or too similar.

Emergency break point is if he loses the players, the game on Thursday might tell us a bit about whether that is happening again.

I am choosing to be as optimisitic as I can be, hoping that the last game was a blip and that our mini-resurgence can get back on track and we finish the season strongly. I could choose to be pessimistic instead but what does that give me other than despair? We're all pretty impotent in terms of affecting things either way. I'll admit that I'm worried the last performance will lead to a return of 'nasty Jose' and undermine the apparent 'reset' that seemed to be working until Sunday. I do think fatigue is a factor in some of our insipidness, both physical and mental. The international break might do us a bit of good, but we have two important games to win before we get to it.

SecretLemonadeDrinker · Mar 16, 2021

Ghost Hardware said:
I’m going to be really curious to see how we do against Villa. They have had a lot of injuries of late and if Grealish isn’t back fit in time then Jose will be lucky as if fully fit I reckon they could well beat us if we perform in the same manor as we did last Sunday. Without him I think we could well win even playing poorly. Ether way Jose will be lucky to have a two week break afterwards as it will take the focus off. And I agree, at this point I don’t see us beating Napoli or Ajax let alone Utd and we just saw how we would do against Arsenal.

This.

100%.

If we turn up at the Emirates for an away game against Villa, it will be adjudged a home win....

:cautious:

Rout-Ledge · Mar 16, 2021

talkshowhost86 said:
if Jose was getting us to 4th it would be over-achievement

Is this strictly the case? We have arguably the best player in the league, and he cost nothing. In terms of the transfer market, then clearly we’re limited by the budget of the club, and ours isn’t in the top 4 in the league. But surely you have to take into consideration the players already at the club when deciding what over-achievement would be and not simply the resources at our disposal for future transfers and player contracts?

Everlasting Seconds · Mar 16, 2021

ilikeost said:
Can't wait for the same excuse for the squad when we are discussing sacking the next manager. The players are the major issue, no one is winning anything major with this squad. Too many mediocre players.

Winning major trophies is besides the point right now, it would be a statistical rarity under any manager and it's not a defined goal for the club. We are 8th in the league, whereas the goal the club has set is CL footie. So we should use that as the benchmark and evaluate manager and players. I don't think we have too many mediocre players to be a CL club, or so many mediocre players that 8th place is our best possible achievement. We've finished between 2nd to 6th place every single year from 2010 to 2020. In a year with both Liverpool and Arsenal behind us, we are struggling with holding on to 8th. So talk about major trophies is a red herring, when we should talk about why we are behind on core goals.

Haddock · Mar 16, 2021

Breeding and developing a winning mentality is of course an important aspect of all sports. But some of you make it sound like all you need is a winning mentality and the rest will sort itself out. First of all, you don't get to this level, playing in the premier league if you don't have a fantastic mentality, to begin with. Secondly, more often than not it's the actual quality of a football team that decides whether you win matches or not.

Liverpool lost the CL final against Real Madrid in 2018, not because they lacked winning mentality, but because quite frankly Karius isn't a very good goalkeeper and they were up against a brilliant Real Madrid. The year after they had rectified the one glaring weakness in their squad and brought in Alisson Becker, and they were up against a Tottenham side that were held together by tape and about to implode.

I agree that it's important to get over that final hurdle for this football club and that it would be a great start to win a 'smaller' trophy to breed a long-term winning mentality. But I don't agree that there's something rotten in the core of this squad. You don't get top four for several seasons in a row and you don't come second in the biggest club tournament on earth, and you don't go toe to toe with the likes of Juventus and Real Madrid, if you don't have a great mentality.

I think all of us got a bit f*cked by that CL Final. It's becoming a self-forfilling prophecy that we don't have the mentality to win a trophy.

Inq · Mar 16, 2021

Archibald&Crooks said:
The list of 'disposables' is a lengthy one though. The painful rebuild we were told we required is turning out to to be exactly that, we're seeing it now and it would probably be like that under any manager. People say we'd play better under a new manager and maybe we would, but would the the results follow? I have my doubts. As for Mourinho, I like him and want him to stay but I must admit i've wobbled a bit but still I think i'd give him another season.

Problem I find with this is that if the rebuild is what is required. Then I really don’t think giving Jose another season is the right idea. He’s not exactly known for his history rebuilding sides. More so adding a few headline veterans and pushing on.

That’s where I’m stuck between two thoughts. Do you get rid of JM give the reigns to a manager for a rebuild? Or push on with JM next year and hope he sorts out the glaring issues over the summer?

unfortunately I think due to the way games have played out this year. The safer bet is to start a rebuild now. Since one of the glaring issues is Jose himself.

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