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wrd

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Aug 22, 2014
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There's a lot about your epic post that I agree with - this opening point, for one. I too would like to have seen more contrition and acknowledgement of mistakes; less self justification.

But just a couple of points that I do disagree with:



Levy didn't say that we are worse off than other clubs. Yes, he pointed out that we have the greatest amount of debt and that we will have lost out on more income than any other club. But that's not the same as being worse off. In terms of cashflow - which is key - we will be better off than all but a handful of clubs. We have the best wages to turnover ratio in the PL. And we have just secured £250m to ease any ongoing cashflow concerns.



I'm not sure that the club ever announced a budget. I saw all sorts of figures bandied about by fans and journalists but it all appeared to be guesswork. Regardless, the final project cost clearly exceeded the initial budget by a wide margin.

But it doesn't follow that it is attributable to impulsiveness or vanity on Levy's part, as you suggest. A revised budget is not the same thing as going over budget. It seems clear to me that the decision to go for top notch spec, state of the art technology, a unique sliding pitch system, a wealth of other facilities, and a forensic attention to detail was all about competitiveness and future proofing. It was very deliberate and very carefully considered. I mean, really......as if we would expect anything else of Daniel Levy!

Think of the context. Levy wants the stadium to generate money for the club on as many days as possible. A mere 25-30 home games a year is a waste of an asset when it could also host other sports, concerts, conferences etc. But we are in London - a uniquely competitive market because of the glut of big stadiums capable of hosting such events. Added to which, we are in a part of London that is far from the centre, hard to get to, and not very desirable.

We therefore needed something truly unique and special to beat off the opposition. Not just now but for years into the future. Prior to COVID, the stadium wasn't attracting blue chip event after blue chip event to run down north Tottenham just because it is of a decent size. It was doing so because it blows the opposition out of the water. Spectacularly so.

Appreciate your response and that you actually took the time to read it.

On your first point about cashflow, that's what I was hoping would be the case, that we would be in a position where we're better off than the vast majority of clubs in europe particular compared to France and my hope was that whilst yes we can't spend astronomical fee's that we would still be able to somewhat take of advantage of the situation. I always felt this was the point of us being so self sustainable that when a moment like this came that we would be in the driving seat. Of course teams like City/Chelsea will and are making the most of it, that's understandable as they don't rely on self sustained revenue solely but as you say relative to most, I'd hope we'd be doing better than most even if we're suffering from the loss of projected revenue.

I'd have hoped this was taken care off for the most part by our recent navigation of the Bank of America loan which covered the initial BoE loan.

On your points on the stadium. I wouldn't say it's impulsiveness or vanity that drove Levy but instead his perfectionism, I personally think he suffers from that which is why he fails to cede control in a lot of moments and I do think the stadium was another example of that perfectionism. There's a lot of upside to the perfectionism and what you laid out as the possibilities for the stadium are examples of why in certain moments perfectionism can be a great thing. However perfectionism can also cause things to spiral which can cause multiple problems such as going over budget or failing to meet deadlines because the desire to constantly strive to improve and get more out of something in there, there's a lot of artists out there who don't ship projects the vast majority of the world would think are brilliant because they keep adding more and more onto them or projects which spiral out of control because the creative director couldn't help themselves.

I do agree with the majority of what you're saying, if we're going to be run as self sustainable then we needed to do something to be able to compete, I do think the stadium will in the long run will be a resounding success for the club and I hope they're true to the world that it is indeed the team who reap the rewards of that.

However until that manifests then Levy does need to acknowledge that the reason the debt is what it is was because of his decision to go down the ambitious route on that project and spend what he did. If that decision is having an averse effect that makes the pandemic even more of a burden for than multiple clubs then I understand that and appreciate that, I just feel the tone of his message to the fans needs to be better. I think the level headed fans would respond to what I said before which is him holding his hands and taking responsibility for that decision and acknowledging that decision will affect us in the short term but that the decision will be vindicated and will prove to be the best thing to ever to happen to this club once the pandemic is behind us. I'm personally absolutely fine with that being the case, I'm just somebody who likes to see people take responsibility for situations, especially when taking responsibility now for the short term pain will yield huge vindication for him. I'd much prefer that than this propaganda piece, talking about FFP and claiming the reason for unrest is because you like to do things in private whilst also claiming you could protect yourself by blaming the imaginary man.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,710
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the 18 months of not buying, yet out of those 18 months you can only buy in a 4 month period.

as you said as much on Poch, the one thing with Poch he rarely had new signings in January, think it was 2-3 and Alli was loaned back, and Moura hardly played.

the 2018 summer window killed us, and really wished we had picked up 3-4 new players, it might have meant we would have sold some too, as we needed to with having 25 senior players, but we needed to have done something to have a decent squad instead of just a starting XI that the majority had a very small break due to getting to the final weekend of the World Cup.

Until we know who the alternatives were, I would question that. The amount of rumours that were nailed on signings that never materialised, I would take that comment about Poch with a huge pinch of salt. Levy is a smart guy, he knows he can spin not signing players by claiming that he tried and Poch said no. Press and itks do serve a purpose as part of the PR machine.

This isn't a dig at itks but just saying there has been a lot incorrect and no reason for this not to be incorrect.
 
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yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,755
17,018
but it still sold more regularly than anything else other than food
You know it costs about $20-30 to produce a barrell of oil and it was selling way below that. In addition the UAE and Saudi don't have taxes so any infrastructure is funded by the royal family. They were actively losing money every day. Unless you've worked in the industry you have no idea how it works.
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,755
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This is more than a little disingenuous! As rich as Lewis is, his wealth is dwarfed by Abu Dhabi. Even Abramovich is 3-4 times richer. Equally importantly, despotic Middle Eastern states and Russian oligarchs have motivations for investing in football which have nothing to do with either football or making a profit.

All of which isn’t to defend Lewis. He doesn’t appear to give a monkey’s about Spurs save for whatever profit he can make. But you’re comparing apples with oranges.
My point was Lewis could have chucked us 50-100m at any point but he never has. The real enic crime was the 18 months of no signings that is why we are so fucked now. It cost poch his job and has set us way back. We were constantly better than Liverpool over a long period and 18 months of nothing has put us back about 5 years to pre poch times.
 

SandroClegane

Well-Known Member
Jun 27, 2012
3,717
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My point was Lewis could have chucked us 50-100m at any point but he never has. The real enic crime was the 18 months of no signings that is why we are so fucked now. It cost poch his job and has set us way back. We were constantly better than Liverpool over a long period and 18 months of nothing has put us back about 5 years to pre poch times.
Maybe I'm misremembering but didn't he throw in a bunch of his own money for the stadium?
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
You know it costs about $20-30 to produce a barrell of oil and it was selling way below that. In addition the UAE and Saudi don't have taxes so any infrastructure is funded by the royal family. They were actively losing money every day. Unless you've worked in the industry you have no idea how it works.

oh ok they made a loss but they still had money coming in. Both owners are still richer than ENIC and their wealth doesn’t disappear when spending 100’s of millions every season. If Lewis and Levy had chucked their own money behind us in anywhere near what those two have their wealth would go down drastically and all in the hope of winning an FA Cup or 2.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
My point was Lewis could have chucked us 50-100m at any point but he never has. The real enic crime was the 18 months of no signings that is why we are so fucked now. It cost poch his job and has set us way back. We were constantly better than Liverpool over a long period and 18 months of nothing has put us back about 5 years to pre poch times.

ok just asking, but if it’s true that Poch didn’t want anything other than his choices how can Levy be blamed?

the last 2 summers and one winter window we have spent. Levy proved that when struggling to survive he spent, and he also spent all the Bale money plus more.

yes we have had times we could have spent more but that’s the same with every club
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,755
17,018
ok just asking, but if it’s true that Poch didn’t want anything other than his choices how can Levy be blamed?

the last 2 summers and one winter window we have spent. Levy proved that when struggling to survive he spent, and he also spent all the Bale money plus more.

yes we have had times we could have spent more but that’s the same with every club
Come on stop sipping the cool aid. Levy has history just look at Saha and Nelson. Mourinho took Rodon instead of Scriniar. You can imagine we had a great team and poch was after De Jong. Levy will have been offering all sorts of dross instead.

Blatantly levy holding onto the cash cos we were playing at Wembley whilst he over ran and over spent in the stadium.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
Yes, you’re misremembering. As far as I’m aware he’s never put a penny of his own personal money into Tottenham. Unlike many of us!

well he did buy us, and there was rumours he had put £50m towards the build which might be the reason THFC ltd no longer owns Sainsbury’s
 

yido_number1

He'll always be magic
Jun 8, 2004
8,755
17,018
oh ok they made a loss but they still had money coming in. Both owners are still richer than ENIC and their wealth doesn’t disappear when spending 100’s of millions every season. If Lewis and Levy had chucked their own money behind us in anywhere near what those two have their wealth would go down drastically and all in the hope of winning an FA Cup or 2.
Levy and Lewis we're happy to chuck the club into massive debt to build an American football pitch and invest in buying land to build flats and retail stores. Not so happy to invest in the actual team.
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Yes, you’re misremembering. As far as I’m aware he’s never put a penny of his own personal money into Tottenham. Unlike many of us!

I believe they have done it before (ENIC) - I think it was evidenced on the 2014 report as an issuance of preference shares:

1623699008699.png



Where I believe this is different is that the likes of Abramovich and the Dildo Team tend to "invest" their money, but as a loan. Chelsea's holding company (Fordstam) technically owe RA at least £1.3bn, and the Dildo Team have made money out of theres by adding generous interest charges onto them.

There may be other examples in the reports, but CBA to go through them. I seem to recall there was a £50m one because people accused ENIC of 'stealing money' from the club, but it was repaying a loan or something.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
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Levy and Lewis we're happy to chuck the club into massive debt to build an American football pitch and invest in buying land to build flats and retail stores. Not so happy to invest in the actual team.

having the NFL pitch also allows plenty of other things can happen without ruining the pitch. Those other events will eventually get a decent naming rights, will make paying off the stadium easier and pay for many other things that will allow the football money be available for the football team.

If they had saved the extra 2-300m and just had it for football then we couldn’t have held other events without damaging the playing surface, and the original plans was for 56k (might have been less) @davidmatzdorf might remember better than me.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
Come on stop sipping the cool aid. Levy has history just look at Saha and Nelson. Mourinho took Rodon instead of Scriniar. You can imagine we had a great team and poch was after De Jong. Levy will have been offering all sorts of dross instead.

Blatantly levy holding onto the cash cos we were playing at Wembley whilst he over ran and over spent in the stadium.

I’m on my phone so not got the details but there wasn’t any massive deals in January and there rarely are. Also why back a manager that they most probably knew they were going to part ways with in the summer and be lumbered with players the next manager might not want.

I think the two biggest signings were Papa Cisse for Newcastle and Cahill went to Chelsea, who we would never have won a battle with in the market

edit: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ier-League-transfer-window--January-2012.html
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2008
16,039
48,797
Spot on tbh.



Very naive comment from JJ. You can’t spend money you haven’t got. Especially as the ‘big boys’ will have champions league revenue to count on, and won’t be burdened with paying off a new stadium.

No doubt we’ll spend but it won’t match the teams above us unless we generate big money from selling Kane.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Levy and Lewis we're happy to chuck the club into massive debt to build an American football pitch and invest in buying land to build flats and retail stores. Not so happy to invest in the actual team.
You've used the word "invest" without really understanding what you're saying. The objective of the residential, retail and hotel developments is to generate capital receipts - and substantial profits - from sales. Those receipts are intended to reduce the long term stadium debt and thus the repayments of the debt.

The more THFC can reduce the debt and the repayments through profitable development projects, the more rapidly the annual revenue from footballing operations can be ploughed back into the squad. The investments in land are for the eventual purpose of generating profits and improving the footballing operations.

You are treating these things as if they are either/or. They aren't. One serves the other, but the process is measured in years.

Residential or retail development takes 5-7 years from inception to completion. Developers routinely pretend they can do it in 3 years, but it's the biggest pile of bullshit in the development field. It takes 5-7 years from identifying a piece of development land to completing the project and, in the UK's sclerotic system, there isn't anything that a developer can do to speed the process. Shit happens. Whatever you do.

Incidentally, most of the development land was acquired many years ago, by Paul Kemsley, and the cost of it has long since been accounted for. The investment in recent years and currently is primarily in planning consents and construction.
 
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