Next Manager Watch

Timberwolf · Apr 17, 2023

THFCjosh said:
Then what's the point of hiring a young manager to put his stamp on things? He'll be gone within 18months to 2 years. The current crop simply aren't good enough, 4 managers haven't been able to get a consistent tune out of them since 2018. What makes you think a new young manager will be able to without getting rid of most the squad?

Our squad is like 70-80% different players from 2018. and About 60-70% different from 2020.

After the summer Kane and Son are about the only players from the late Poch/Jose era likely to be in the first 11. And even Kane might be gone this summer too.

We've signed about 2/3rds of a new first 11 in the past 2 years: Kulu, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Romero, Bissouma, Sarr, Rich, etc.

A new, young manager has a relatively clean slate, especially if we get a new keeper, CB and an attacking midfielder this summer, which IMO is the bare minimum.

Duke of Northumberland · Apr 17, 2023

Trix said:
I'm not going to keep going round in circles over this but your defence of this is quite simply pathetic imo. This wasn't just a case of a player being booed for having a stinker. Emerson was booed as his name was read out on the team sheet and when he was coming on as a sub. You keep going on like it's common place and it really isn't. Yes sometimes players/teams get booed but this was a hate campaign that started on social media and transferred into the stadium. If you can point me to other players that have received the same treatment from their fans despite giving 100% every game and being eternally positive towards the club I'll rethink my take on it, but I simply can't remember one that has gotten anywhere near the amount of abuse from their home fans just for being picked. It very much could affect a players decision to come especially if say he was Brazilian or Columbian who followed the progress of their International team mate.

Yep. I remember meeting some Colombian fans at PSG airport on their way to the 2018 World Cup and they were so excited to watch their star Davinson who plays for Tottenham in the EPL. How would they feel about the club now?

chrisd2k · Apr 17, 2023

Duke of Northumberland said:
Yep. I remember meeting some Colombian fans at PSG airport on their way to the 2018 World Cup and they were so excited to watch their star Davinson who plays for Tottenham in the EPL. How would they feel about the club now?

Have you any idea what football is like in South America? Ever heard of Andres Escobar?

DiVaio · Apr 17, 2023

Cavehillspur said:
It's utterly baffling why the players do it (sit back), that's the last 3 managers all saying it's the players do it instinctively and its not part of the tactics, just weird. Hopefully the new manager whoever that may be coaches it out of them.

Yeah it's definitely the players and not the coach. I'm sure they are the ones who are preferring to sit back against Bournemouth. It must have been so horrible last saturday for them when they were asked in last 30 minutes to play more attacking football with 4 at the back when they had 72% of possession, outshot them 14 to 3 and 1,19 xG to 0,29 xG.

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
But all of the 3 managers we've had since Poch are known for being defensive and for prioritising sitting back and counter attacking. That's how they play and that mentality of defend first and counter has swept across the club now.

Take Mourinho for example, Roma are having a good season at the moment but look at the average possession stats for them this season, they are 12th and average 48.2% possession. In comparison, the top 6 for possession rank:
Napoli 62.1%
Fiorentina 56.9%
Inter 56.1%
Monza 55.6%
Milan 53.4%

Last season they were 10th for average possession, averaged 51.2%, the top 7 for possession ranked:
Napoli 58.8%
Fiorentina 58%
Inter 56.8%
Lazio 55.4%
Sassuolo 55.2%
Atalanta 55%
MIlan 54.2%

A clear style that isn't based on wanting the ball and playing high up but sitting off teams and primarily countering.

Now for Conte, even when he won the league with Inter, as you can see below there was no dominant possession team in Serie A that season, so he ranked 3rd but the actual possession number is low, showing a side that didn't dominate the ball and actually hardly any team in Serie A that season was great at dominating possession :
21/22 Spurs: 8th for average possession, 51.9%
20/21 Inter win the title: 3rd for average possession with just 52% (Napoli 54.1%, Lazio 52.2%)
19/20 Inter first season: 6th for average possession with 52.8% (Napoli 1st with 57.2%, Juventus 2nd with 56.4%)

Won't even bother with Nuno as we all know he was a sit back and counter guy too.

Poch average possession stats in comparison:
14/15: Ranked 4th with 55.2%
15/16: Ranked 3rd with 55.3%
16/17: Ranked 3rd with 60.5%
17/18: Ranked 2nd with 58.8%
18/19: Ranked 4th with 56.7%

Even in his final season 19/20, his 12 games:
Villa (h) 70%
City (a) 44.6%
Newcastle (h) 80%
Arsenal (a) 45%
Crystal Palace (h) 64%
Leicester (a) 56%
Southampton (h) 41% (We had 10 men from the 31st min)
Brighton (a) 52%
Watford (h) 69%
Liverpool (a) 32%
Everton (a) 53% (We had 10 men for the final 11 mins plus injury time)
Sheff Utd (h) 61%
Average 55.6%

So with Poch always a minimum of 55% average possession across a season and across his 6 seasons of data we averaged 57.01% possession with him as manager. SInce he left:

19/20 (after he had gone): Ranked 8th with 51.5%
20/21: Ranked 9th with 51.3%
21/22: Ranked 8th with 51.9%
22/23 so far: Ranked 9th with 50.4%

There is a clear pattern of us becoming defensive and passive, sitting off opponents from the moment that Poch leaves and we appoint 3 consecutive managers known for defensive and counter based football.

Great post. It's also worth to add that Roma's % of average possession dropped since Mourinho replaced Fonseca as their manager. And Inter % of average possession increased since Inzaghi replaced Conte as their manager.

spursfan77 · Apr 17, 2023

No Poch then according to the Athletic, as they have been maintaining on COYS and then here for most of the year. Obviously Levy isn't quite as desperate as it seems. If Chelsea don't go for Nagelsmann (I don't reckon they will) then I suspect he is top of the list and I would be happy with that. I wanted him when Poch went and when Mourinho went too. I think he'd get a tune out of us.

Duke of Northumberland · Apr 17, 2023

chrisd2k said:
Have you any idea what football is like in South America? Ever heard of Andres Escobar?

Yeah I've followed it for decades. Not sure what your point is?

Ghost Hardware · Apr 17, 2023

spursfan77 said:
No Poch then according to the Athletic, as they have been maintaining on COYS and then here for most of the year. Obviously Levy isn't quite as desperate as it seems. If Chelsea don't go for Nagelsmann (I don't reckon they will) then I suspect he is top of the list and I would be happy with that. I wanted him when Poch went and when Mourinho went too. I think he'd get a tune out of us.

Supposedly Chelsea have just met Nagelsmann face to face for the first time according to SSN. Seeing how swiftly they are going about things one would assume we will hear something about that potential appointment soon. I know we want someone who will priorities us but I agree i can still see us being interested in him if Chelsea go in a different direction.

Styopa · Apr 17, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Our squad is like 70-80% different players from 2018. and About 60-70% different from 2020.

After the summer Kane and Son are about the only players from the late Poch/Jose era likely to be in the first 11. And even Kane might be gone this summer too.

We've signed about 2/3rds of a new first 11 in the past 2 years: Kulu, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Romero, Bissouma, Sarr, Rich, etc.

A new, young manager has a relatively clean slate, especially if we get a new keeper, CB and an attacking midfielder this summer, which IMO is the bare minimum.

Yeah. I think the real problem has not been the same players failing; it's been new players falling short of the standards of the players they replaced. For example, Walker, Rose, Vertonghen, Dembele, Dele, Eriksen > Emerson, Perisic, Romero, Hjobjerg, Kulusevski, Richarlison.

Having said that, I still think the likes of Romero and Kulusevski are seriously underperforming this season due to poor management. I think we will probably buy three or four new players this summer, giving the new coach a lot of potential to work with, at the very least.

sidford · Apr 17, 2023

Ghost Hardware said:
Supposedly Chelsea have just met Nagelsmann face to face for the first time according to SSN. Seeing how swiftly they are going about things one would assume we will hear something about that potential appointment soon. I know we want someone who will priorities us but I agree i can still see us being interested in him if Chelsea go in a different direction.

Yea Di Marzio is reporting that two Chelsea directors flew out to Germany to meet him. Genuinely would amaze me if he doesn't end up at Chelsea. I still maintain all this list stuff with Chelsea is just to stop the same accusations that were labelled at owners when they got potter that they didn't consider anyone else and just went only for potter. This is why imo they are making it very public that they are conducting a process for new man.

sundanceyid10 · Apr 17, 2023

Levy can’t in all reality go for Poch as it’s basically publicly admitting that he has wasted and pissed up the wall all the seasons since he was sacked, with appalling decision making and an utter scatter gun approach. Only to then reappoint someone he has sacked. Wasting the best years of Kane, which is unforgivable.

He would look like a buffoon (he is) that’s why he won’t appoint Poch again.

Trix · Apr 17, 2023

Nick-TopSpursMan said:
But all of the 3 managers we've had since Poch are known for being defensive and for prioritising sitting back and counter attacking. That's how they play and that mentality of defend first and counter has swept across the club now.

Take Mourinho for example, Roma are having a good season at the moment but look at the average possession stats for them this season, they are 12th and average 48.2% possession. In comparison, the top 6 for possession rank:
Napoli 62.1%
Fiorentina 56.9%
Inter 56.1%
Monza 55.6%
Milan 53.4%

Last season they were 10th for average possession, averaged 51.2%, the top 7 for possession ranked:
Napoli 58.8%
Fiorentina 58%
Inter 56.8%
Lazio 55.4%
Sassuolo 55.2%
Atalanta 55%
MIlan 54.2%

A clear style that isn't based on wanting the ball and playing high up but sitting off teams and primarily countering.

Now for Conte, even when he won the league with Inter, as you can see below there was no dominant possession team in Serie A that season, so he ranked 3rd but the actual possession number is low, showing a side that didn't dominate the ball and actually hardly any team in Serie A that season was great at dominating possession :
21/22 Spurs: 8th for average possession, 51.9%
20/21 Inter win the title: 3rd for average possession with just 52% (Napoli 54.1%, Lazio 52.2%)
19/20 Inter first season: 6th for average possession with 52.8% (Napoli 1st with 57.2%, Juventus 2nd with 56.4%)

Won't even bother with Nuno as we all know he was a sit back and counter guy too.

Poch average possession stats in comparison:
14/15: Ranked 4th with 55.2%
15/16: Ranked 3rd with 55.3%
16/17: Ranked 3rd with 60.5%
17/18: Ranked 2nd with 58.8%
18/19: Ranked 4th with 56.7%

Even in his final season 19/20, his 12 games:
Villa (h) 70%
City (a) 44.6%
Newcastle (h) 80%
Arsenal (a) 45%
Crystal Palace (h) 64%
Leicester (a) 56%
Southampton (h) 41% (We had 10 men from the 31st min)
Brighton (a) 52%
Watford (h) 69%
Liverpool (a) 32%
Everton (a) 53% (We had 10 men for the final 11 mins plus injury time)
Sheff Utd (h) 61%
Average 55.6%

So with Poch always a minimum of 55% average possession across a season and across his 6 seasons of data we averaged 57.01% possession with him as manager. SInce he left:

19/20 (after he had gone): Ranked 8th with 51.5%
20/21: Ranked 9th with 51.3%
21/22: Ranked 8th with 51.9%
22/23 so far: Ranked 9th with 50.4%

There is a clear pattern of us becoming defensive and passive, sitting off opponents from the moment that Poch leaves and we appoint 3 consecutive managers known for defensive and counter based football.

That's all great, but the facts are the facts and all 3 of those managers plus the senior players are saying and have said they are not being asked to play that way. Defensive yes, conceding possession at times, sure, but not dropping deeper and deeper until we can't get out at all. There really is a difference between being a defensive counter attacking side, and what we've been doing for 3+ years on and off. It's also very apparent, to me at least, there are usually triggers for us defaulting to this. A poor clearance or players being out of position letting other teams in etc. How we've set up and how we've played against the likes of City and Liverpool over the last few years for example is very different to what we've done against lower teams that we've capitulated against. It's been very clear to me we've been drilled to play very compact and disciplined and spring into a counter against City etc and we've completely gone in with the mindset that is what we are doing. Against Bournemouth(just for instance I could have used many examples) it was pure panic and disorganisation and certainly nothing we've been drilled to do.

Be it Slot, Kompany or whomever they have to get that mentality out of the side, and they'll have to do it under certain constraints due to how we are run. My preference currently is with Slot but I'm certainly not against Kompany, and he's certainly growing on me. One thing they both have in common is that they've managed to achieve what they have so young, and it hasn't all been straight forward and easy. They've both done it at clubs who have needed to make huge squad changes due to financial reasons and they've both come out of their first full season incredibly strong.

As for those saying Kompany wouldn't be here for the long haul and he'll just swan off to City etc. The only way City want him is if he's the best around, and if he's the best around it'll mean he's been able to win stuff with us. The thought that because he has a statue outside the ground will have much relevance is absurd imo. He'll either be the cream of the crop or he won't. Setiment won't come into it with the City owners.

Ghost Hardware · Apr 17, 2023

sidford said:
Yea Di Marzio is reporting that two Chelsea directors flew out to Germany to meet him. Genuinely would amaze me if he doesn't end up at Chelsea. I still maintain all this list stuff with Chelsea is just to stop the same accusations that were labelled at owners when they got potter that they didn't consider anyone else and just went only for potter. This is why imo they are making it very public that they are conducting a process for new man.

Yeah, id be surprised if JN doesn't end up there. I think it's a pretty good bet its between him and Enirque as Romano mentioned yesterday and with Vivell + others supposedly favouring Nagelsmann i think its very likely to happen and probably quickly. Supposedly they have another meeting with Enrique set up soon, I wouldn't be surprised that any decision would be made shortly after.

Trent Crimm · Apr 17, 2023

tony0379 said:
If it is to be Kompany. I just hope Levy backs with players who can play his passing game.

We’re giving him Dier. What more could he need.

TOLBINY · Apr 17, 2023

Timberwolf said:
Our squad is like 70-80% different players from 2018. and About 60-70% different from 2020.

After the summer Kane and Son are about the only players from the late Poch/Jose era likely to be in the first 11. And even Kane might be gone this summer too.

We've signed about 2/3rds of a new first 11 in the past 2 years: Kulu, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Romero, Bissouma, Sarr, Rich, etc.

A new, young manager has a relatively clean slate, especially if we get a new keeper, CB and an attacking midfielder this summer, which IMO is the bare minimum.

Given the turnover of playing staff that you state, perhaps it is the culture / standards in the dressing room that influences new signings more than the managers we have had?

Leicester won the title under Ranieri and then downed tools - that's the power of the dressing room for you.

Tezza1978 · Apr 17, 2023

Ghost Hardware said:
Yeah, id be surprised if JN doesn't end up there. I think it's a pretty good bet its between him and Enirque as Romano mentioned yesterday and with Vivell + others supposedly favouring Nagelsmann i think its very likely to happen and probably quickly. Supposedly they have another meeting with Enrique set up soon, I wouldn't be surprised that any decision would be made shortly after.

Do you think Enrique may be a better fit for them though?

If so Nagelsmann could well rise up our priority list...?

Timberwolf · Apr 17, 2023

TOLBINY said:
Given the turnover of playing staff that you state, perhaps it is the culture / standards in the dressing room that influences new signings more than the managers we have had?

Leicester won the title under Ranieri and then downed tools - that's the power of the dressing room for you.

The culture and standards in the dressing room should be dictated and cultivated by the manager and his staff.

Conte's a good manager - the standards and culture at the club looked very promising at the end of the last season - but since he was a poor long term fit for our model and refused to prolong his contract it all fell apart.

We need a positive character that can instil a sense of unity in the group and raise the standards once again.

(And Ranieri was always a freak, short term thing. I'm not sure he's lasted longer than 2 seasons at a single club in the past 20 years).

Ghost Hardware · Apr 17, 2023

Tezza1978 said:
Do you think Enrique may be a better fit for them though?

If so Nagelsmann could well rise up our priority list...?

I actually think he might, more experience working with larger squads, success working with big names, won more things etc etc. I could even see Boehly favouring him but I think many will prefer the idea of JN especially their DoF who worked with him at Liepzig and ultimately i think Boehly will go with the choice made by Vivell and co this time.

TOLBINY · Apr 17, 2023

Timberwolf said:
The culture and standards in the dressing room should be dictated and cultivated by the manager and his staff.

Conte's a good manager - the standards and culture at the club looked very promising at the end of the last season - but since he was a poor long term fit for our model and refused to prolong his contract it all fell apart.

We need a positive character that can instil a sense of unity in the group and raise the standards once again.

Agree, but it is the players who decide if they will follow it or not, if some do and some don't you end up in a mess. Maybe that's part of what Conte meant by "selfish"?

Timberwolf · Apr 17, 2023

TOLBINY said:
Agree, but it is the players who decide if they will follow it or not, if some do and some don't you end up in a mess. Maybe that's part of what Conte meant by "selfish"?

Personally I don't believe our squad is inherently broken, selfish or anything. Newcastle looked like a pile of lazy dog-shit under Steve Bruce and are now completely rejuvenated under Howe.

There might be a handful of bad apples in our squad, sure, but given half the squad is fairly new and the old players like Kane, Son, Davies, Dier and Lloris are all model pros, I just don't see it. My belief is that we simply didn't have the quality throughout the squad to succeed at the level Conte or Jose required to pull off their respective styles of play in the modern game.

Hence we need a different type of manager more suited to working with this particular group and maximising its potential, rather than burning the entire squad to the ground cos they're all inherent losers or whatever.

Joe Bjorn Hotspur · Apr 17, 2023

I’ve got to admit when Nagelsmann was sacked I was on that train for a few hours then the realisation sunk in that it was very unlikely to happen.

Truly awful how they still stick with Still Conte.

Honestly, I’ve only made the decision to go to the Man Utd & Palace games more out of meeting up with the guys that sit near me and others in the South stand, otherwise I wouldn’t be going. Missing the Brentford game as I am going to Helsinki and so relieved I booked to see my favourite band Rammstein, well needed as I miss positive energy and entertainment.

Slightly off topic but kinda related that’s what fans want, to be entertained, to see attacking play with a plan. Also, I know it’s the minority in the ground but I am still so annoyed by the booing of our own players.

It’s so obvious that we need Poch: this will in one swoop unite most. I would be up for another like minded individual like most and as always there will be disagreements about don’t go back etc: the thing is we know what the common denominator was and still is. He ran out of gas and he didn’t get backed at the crucial time. We have the players and a few we could fit in again who are on loan for this style of play. Obviously a few additions like a Maddison, new GK and a proper CB & cover etc.

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