Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

Japhet said:

Who are these players Conte wanted but didn't get as a matter of interest? Bastoni decided to stay in Milan but apart from that I'm struggling to think who else he wanted. Spence was a speculative punt by Levy I guess, but Conte throwing his toys out of the pram was a bit pathetic imo.

Click to expand...

Bluto Blutarsky said:

Not buying it.

That is why they wanted Mason. What has that gotten us?

Nobody is holding the players accountable. Not the hierarchy. Not the players themselves, and not the fans - with a few exceptions - fans love a good scapegoat. But for the most part, fans are happy to buy into the narrative that a new manager will change everything, and the players are not at fault for the decline. The manager was too mean to them.

Click to expand...

Japhet said:

Who are these players Conte wanted but didn't get as a matter of interest? Bastoni decided to stay in Milan but apart from that I'm struggling to think who else he wanted. Spence was a speculative punt by Levy I guess, but Conte throwing his toys out of the pram was a bit pathetic imo.

Click to expand...

carmeldevil said:

I recall Levy tried to get Conte before hiring Nuno. I think Nuno was the panicky hire and was relieved when Conte was willing to come.

Click to expand...

Timberwolf said:

I'm firmly of the belief that a manager is the single biggest factor in any football club and the right manager can turn a bunch of supposedly useless, lazy, [insert adjective here] players into a solid, coherent unit that works together. Sure, they'll need to weed out some players that don't have the right profile either on/off the pitch and bring in a few of their own, but ultimately, the manager is the biggest influence and by instilling a strong culture, work ethic and coaching they can transform a team completely.

You see it all the time in football. Villa this season were bottom 3 under Gerrard and are now on the brink of Europe under Emre with one new first team signing in Jan. Newcastle fans probably thought Willock, Longstaff, Joelinton, Almiron and Schar were a bunch of useless lazy wastrels and now they could finish in 3rd. Middling squads get promoted to the PL all the time thanks to excellent management in the Championship.

The players need to take some of the blame, sure, but it's more the mismanagement behind the scenes regarding Conte's contract situation and his very appointment (excellent for 6 months but awful once he realised the limited ceiling of the squad to play his rigid system, refused to re-sign and teams figured us out) is the real culprit here in my mind. That and us taking way too long to move on the obvious deadwood in the squad like Dier, Sanchez, etc.

Click to expand...

Styopa said:

Yeah this is true. Although I suspect Levy also panicked after Nuno and made Conte firmer assurances about "backing" than he had in the summer. That would partly explain why Conte declined us in the summer but agreed to come in November. That was at least one of the narratives here: Levy was under more pressure in Nov than he had been in the summer, so Conte was able to extract more concessions from him in order to join.

Click to expand...

mil1lion said:

Didn't we have some of the highest running stats in the league though? I didn't see that much lack of effort rather I saw a lack of guidance under Conte. I always felt it was lack of quality the issue rather than effort. I mean a lot of the mistakes we've made leading to goals is not effort. It's bad decision making and not being in the right positions.

Click to expand...

Gilzeanking said:

Yes, his new manager bounce lasted precisely a year and there was plenty of running about last season..victories ar great. By the time he saw the Soton collapse he realised his ability to motivate them was gone, he knew that it was going down..

Without the team energy of the first 6 months of his tenure, we then had not only dullish matches but also the rigidity that seemed to make it all worse. It needs victories to satisfy fans, that would have kept us all together at Spurs.

I didn't find the run in to the end of last season dull at all tho btw . The 'terrible football' wasn't all terrible.

Click to expand...

Bluto Blutarsky said:

And yet - we have been through Poch, Mourinho, Nuno, Conte, Mason - twice.

Poch left - won a trophy
Mourinho left - won a trophy
Nuno left - about to win a trophy

Mason - if he left would probably get a team promoted if he went to the Championship.

We have had very good managers - who have won in the past, and won after they left Spurs.

It's not the manager. Its the players, and the culture of the club - that comes from above the manager.

If the manager were as important as people think - teams would stop the Merry-go-round of managers continuously being recycled. Show me a good manager, and I'll show you a team with good players.

Changing managers is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Click to expand...

Timberwolf said:

Poch did a great job - exactly what I was referring to in my previous post - and his undoing was down to the end of a 5 year cycle with not enough investment. The way he invigorated and reinvented a seemingly broken squad within a year is precisely what I was talking about.



Conte was also a poor long term fit. A very good manager who needs specific demands in a short space of time in order to succeed. We couldn't give him that and, predictably, it exploded once he hit a wall after a year.


What we needed post-Poch was another project manager who could start again and build us up. Instead we punted on short termists (and a shit, last ditch option in Nuno) to try and rush a trophy with the dying embers of Poch's squad and it blew up in our faces.

Click to expand...

Bluto Blutarsky said:

These points effectively make my point - its not the manager, its the players.

Poch came in, culled the squad of players the very first summer - even before freezing out Kaboul and Adebayor (and Soldado). The squad was rebuilt post-Poch - Dier and Davies came in that summer, Kane became a starter that fall. Toby, Son, Dele, Trippier came in the next summer. So, within a year, the squad was rebuilt - the players made the difference.

The right manager is important. The right players are more important.

Click to expand...

Timberwolf said:

Yeah but the point is you have to pick the right manager.

Click to expand...

Styopa said:

I have no idea, honestly. But there are reasons to suppose he wasn't particularly thrilled with any of the signings we made during the summer, except maybe Perisic.

I'm not defending him, by the way. It could be his preferred targets were so far out of reach for the club that they weren't even worth discussing.

Click to expand...

Bluto Blutarsky said:

And yet - we have been through Poch, Mourinho, Nuno, Conte, Mason - twice.

Poch left - won a trophy
Mourinho left - won a trophy
Nuno left - about to win a trophy

Mason - if he left would probably get a team promoted if he went to the Championship.

We have had very good managers - who have won in the past, and won after they left Spurs.

It's not the manager. Its the players, and the culture of the club - that comes from above the manager.

If the manager were as important as people think - teams would stop the Merry-go-round of managers continuously being recycled. Show me a good manager, and I'll show you a team with good players.

Changing managers is a short-term solution to a long-term problem.

Click to expand...

fishhhandaricecake said:

Sorry mate but I couldn't disagree with this more and I think Ange coming in and having the incredible positive impact that he has, shows that this is absolutely not true and that everything starts with the Manager.

Of course it helps to have good players but the Manager helps to set the culture, he sets the tactics, he decides the style of play, he sets the rules and discipline etc etc.

Also some Managers fit clubs better than others and comparing Poch winning a trophy at PSG or Nuno in the Saudi money league is hardly comparable to how those managers performed at Tottenham in the most competitive league in the world with less resources than at least 5 teams in the same league.

Some of the culture of a clubs comes from above a Manager but i'd argue that most of the culture of a club is set from the Manager. Take Jose & Conte, when they had injuries or the team had bad form, what happened? They were defensive and critical and blamed the players mentality or quality which created a toxic blame culture, they also bitched and moaned about how they didn't have the players they wanted or how they were essentially bigger than Tottenham and doing the club a favour and that its in Tottenham's DNA to lose etc etc. Also the playing styles of Jose & Conte and Nuno were boring and defensive and rigid, that also starts to embed a culture change at our club which we don't like and aren't used to. Take the Champions League Rd of 16 game last season under Conte, we were losing and he brings on a defender!!! That is the absolute opposite of 'to dare is to do', so things weren't aligned at all in terms of culture and vision.

Then take Ange and how he's remained resolute and resilient and strong and positive and solution focused in the face of adversity and many very challenging circumstances, so that attitude plus an attractive attacking style of football that he is not compromising on sets a new culture and mindset at our club, to the players, to the fans etc. Also Ange is huge on the mentality and personality of the player he signs, this also effects the culture, whereas Jose & Conte cared more about how experienced the players were.

Its an interesting discussion but I hope seeing what Ange has done that many fans eyes are now open to just how vital the Manager is at a football club.

I said it in another thread, take Liverpool for example, 7-8 years without a trophy and 30 years without a PL title, they had lost their culture and belief, in walks Klopp who was the perfect perfect fit for them. He brought high energy and passion and has openly said he changed the clubs culture and the fans mindset from dreamers to believers, he also came from another club who had a 'kop end' and he brought a style of play that resonates with the people of Liverpool, the rest is history as to what he has achieved there.

You can go even further back in time, take Fergie coming into Man.U and how he said hello to every member of staff and made Man.U feel like a family and that every single person was part of a collective objective, he changed things so the players wore suits and were more disciplined etc etc etc, Wenger at Arsenal cut out the drinking culture, changed the diet, changed the style of play, recruited French and other foreign players to also re-enforce this new culture, take Bryan Cluff at Forest, yes they signed some good players but he set the culture of the style of play and the belief that they could beat anyone.

Of course its not as simple as just one person influences everything but as Carlo Ancelotti has quoted in his book, "as a Manager it is my job to 'manage', so whatever the situation I make it work and part of this is to help set a culture and discipline within the team and club'.

My point is Jose, Nuno and Conte were never a good fit for us and whilst sure we needed to make more signings to continue the 'painful rebuild', ultimately Jose, Nuno and mostly Conte created a negative toxic environment and culture where the players felt under pressure, the fans felt bored and offended and the club felt toxic.

Ange thankfully has been just the tonic we've needed in so many ways and the longer he is here, the more his good influence brings to setting a new culture at the club for this period which is much more in-line with our true DNA as a club.

Click to expand...

fishhhandaricecake said:

Sorry mate but I couldn't disagree with this more and I think Ange coming in and having the incredible positive impact that he has, shows that this is absolutely not true and that everything starts with the Manager.

Of course it helps to have good players but the Manager helps to set the culture, he sets the tactics, he decides the style of play, he sets the rules and discipline etc etc.

Also some Managers fit clubs better than others and comparing Poch winning a trophy at PSG or Nuno in the Saudi money league is hardly comparable to how those managers performed at Tottenham in the most competitive league in the world with less resources than at least 5 teams in the same league.

Some of the culture of a clubs comes from above a Manager but i'd argue that most of the culture of a club is set from the Manager. Take Jose & Conte, when they had injuries or the team had bad form, what happened? They were defensive and critical and blamed the players mentality or quality which created a toxic blame culture, they also bitched and moaned about how they didn't have the players they wanted or how they were essentially bigger than Tottenham and doing the club a favour and that its in Tottenham's DNA to lose etc etc. Also the playing styles of Jose & Conte and Nuno were boring and defensive and rigid, that also starts to embed a culture change at our club which we don't like and aren't used to. Take the Champions League Rd of 16 game last season under Conte, we were losing and he brings on a defender!!! That is the absolute opposite of 'to dare is to do', so things weren't aligned at all in terms of culture and vision.

Then take Ange and how he's remained resolute and resilient and strong and positive and solution focused in the face of adversity and many very challenging circumstances, so that attitude plus an attractive attacking style of football that he is not compromising on sets a new culture and mindset at our club, to the players, to the fans etc. Also Ange is huge on the mentality and personality of the player he signs, this also effects the culture, whereas Jose & Conte cared more about how experienced the players were.

Its an interesting discussion but I hope seeing what Ange has done that many fans eyes are now open to just how vital the Manager is at a football club.

I said it in another thread, take Liverpool for example, 7-8 years without a trophy and 30 years without a PL title, they had lost their culture and belief, in walks Klopp who was the perfect perfect fit for them. He brought high energy and passion and has openly said he changed the clubs culture and the fans mindset from dreamers to believers, he also came from another club who had a 'kop end' and he brought a style of play that resonates with the people of Liverpool, the rest is history as to what he has achieved there.

You can go even further back in time, take Fergie coming into Man.U and how he said hello to every member of staff and made Man.U feel like a family and that every single person was part of a collective objective, he changed things so the players wore suits and were more disciplined etc etc etc, Wenger at Arsenal cut out the drinking culture, changed the diet, changed the style of play, recruited French and other foreign players to also re-enforce this new culture, take Bryan Cluff at Forest, yes they signed some good players but he set the culture of the style of play and the belief that they could beat anyone.

Of course its not as simple as just one person influences everything but as Carlo Ancelotti has quoted in his book, "as a Manager it is my job to 'manage', so whatever the situation I make it work and part of this is to help set a culture and discipline within the team and club'.

My point is Jose, Nuno and Conte were never a good fit for us and whilst sure we needed to make more signings to continue the 'painful rebuild', ultimately Jose, Nuno and mostly Conte created a negative toxic environment and culture where the players felt under pressure, the fans felt bored and offended and the club felt toxic.

Ange thankfully has been just the tonic we've needed in so many ways and the longer he is here, the more his good influence brings to setting a new culture at the club for this period which is much more in-line with our true DNA as a club.

Click to expand...

BorjeSpurs said:

Mate, have you been working on this reply since May 2023?

Click to expand...