Joey barton
- Thread starter Tafspur
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'O Zio
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- Dec 27, 2014
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Not sure any of him or his family's various victims over the years will be particularly bothered about whether he tries to deny it or not. For me, being able to acknowledge that what you've done is wrong doesn't make you an intellectual. Likewise, the fact that he does things in the heat of the moment doesn't make them any less damaging than if he'd gone out of his way to do them.
I appreciate how someone's traumatic upbringing can lead to mental health issues, which may manifest themselves in this way. However, that helps to explain why he might do these things, but it doesn't make them any more acceptable.
If you're violent and dangerous then you're violent and dangerous, regardless of the reasons why you've ended up like that. Having an explanation for it doesn't mean you have an excuse for it. If you've got a mental illness it doesn't mean you have carte blanch to go around being a prick. It just makes you a prick with a mental illness.
sausage
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- May 17, 2018
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No one suggested that it is 'acceptable', but you have to separate the person from the actions. Furthermore, you (only you here) are making a reason into an excuse. I don't think that connection is being made otherwise.
Regular people do and say things they regret when they are angry, upset, stressed, or in grief. They aren't actions that are necessarily planned or conscious, but almost a 'reflex'. If you tell someone that it isn't an excuse and that the damage is done, it's the opposite of helpful - it's condemnation. No one would condone saying "it's ok, that's just what they're like", but more seeing it as a symptom that highlights the person needs help.
Your post implies that you don't believe anyone can be rehabilitated, or helped.
ILS
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- Jun 21, 2008
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His book is a great read and got me through my time in hospital after an operation but the guy is still a bellend.
'O Zio
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- Dec 27, 2014
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Sure, people do things when they're angry, which they later regret. But the level to which you can just to forgive and forget is clearly dependent on what they've done.
You're making out like I'm condemning him based on one incident but the guy's got more than just a track record of this kind of thing. He's assaulted people numerous times before, including the infamous cigar incident.
I believe people can be rehabilitated but he's had more than enough chances, and plenty of help. Besides, even if he eventually does clean his act up, that doesn't mean he isn't a scummy man doing scummy things in the here and now does it?
sausage
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- May 17, 2018
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Clearly he hasn't had sufficient help, if the reported is true.
The worst thing about it all is that clearly there are a number of people who don't believe that he could turn a corner, as he's been tried and convicted by you already anyway? In this example it's less about Joey Barton, and more giving people the benefit of a fair trial, and not judging separate events based on the back of things that happened 10, 15 years ago.
None of it is about 'forgive and forget', so I think part of the problem with your side of this discussion is that you are fixed on the idea that this is about acceptance or forgiveness - which it isn't. The original point I made was about having faith that people from troubled backgrounds can break patterns - and part of that is 'innocent until proven guilty'
it's the same with the Wayne Rooney thing - he shagged a granny half his life ago, and he's been photographed (and blackmailed) asleep with some sort of hookers/strippers around him. No evidence he's done anything, but everyone'll jump on him like he's a terrible person, even though he could well be innocent of any wrongdoing.
I believe in treating people how you'd want to be treated, and I don't believe anyone would want anything less than this basic right.
Spurslove
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- Jul 6, 2012
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You make a number of very fair points, and I think I'm largely in agreement with you, but perhaps given the latest news surrounding this particular incident concerning Mr. Rooney you may wish to qualify your paragraph (or perhaps we should start another thread...)?
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sausage
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- May 17, 2018
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Wayne Rooney
Not excusing it, but this honestly isn't anything new. The likes of Bryan Robson used to get dragged home at 3am, the night before match days, when he was at Boro. Smartphones have made it easier to catch them out is all. Last week, I was talking to someone who was part of Manchester United's...
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KILLA_SIN
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- May 24, 2008
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hellava_tough
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- Apr 21, 2005
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It's so shocking, it's almost difficult to comprehend; especially the unprovoked and self-destructive nature of it.
I believe we all have seeds of evil in us, which if left unchecked over time can turn into something really ugly.
But it's the lack of self-control and pointlessness of the killing; there was nothing to gain and everything to lose.
Obviously I'm not condoning anyone getting murdered, for any reason, but most murders you can understand what the motive was. This murder, was primal, animalistic and devoid of self-control.
Marty
Audere est farce
- Mar 10, 2005
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I'm not going to link to this former Man City and QPR thug's social media ravings and I haven't seen the punditry in question that he took such derp offence to last night, but what the actual fuck has happened there?
You can't compare two female pundits on a football match to a serial killer couple, and then double down when ITV issue a formal statement on it (which I strongly disagree with them doing as it gives the situation more oxygen).
Despicable human being
You can't compare two female pundits on a football match to a serial killer couple, and then double down when ITV issue a formal statement on it (which I strongly disagree with them doing as it gives the situation more oxygen).
Despicable human being
McFlash
In the corner, eating crayons.
- Oct 19, 2005
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I don't really do social media, so I have no idea what inane shite that yobbo has been spouting this time but even so, I can safely say that whenever it is, it's because the bloke's an ignorant scumbag.
He's an absolute tool, although weirdly I understand in part some of the point he is making, but I can't take this bloke seriously with the rubbish he spouts, it's genuinely horrible
KirstyG
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- Jul 16, 2015
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The problem is some will lap it up.
I agree. He ruins any argument he has by using such derogatory and insulting language.
Personally I like players that have played at the top level to comment on top level football; whether I agree with them or like their personality, that’s irrelevant. It’s the fact they can empathise with the situation.
Marty
Audere est farce
- Mar 10, 2005
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I find that some of the most interesting people to listen to about football are people who have studied the game in great detail without having played at a high level. Michael Cox is one of my favourite podcasters, for example.
As sidekick commentators, yes maybe it does help that you've played. But that is the only place I feel that a playing career is a valuable asset. Studio punditry and podcasting can be done by literally anybody as long as thet put the work in.
In fact the best pundits and podcasters are very often those who haven't played the game because they do their research and work relentlessly instead of coasting on being a famous name who had a playing career.
Bluto Blutarsky
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- Mar 4, 2021
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When Emma Hayes is a commentator- she is one of my favorites. Extremely knowledgeable and does not over commentate.
Cornpattbuck
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- Jul 23, 2013
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He's a complete ****.
Bluto Blutarsky
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- Mar 4, 2021
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