Another Levy thread- Credit

[Tottenham woody]

1) You brought up extortionate prices, not me. I have no issue with them, hence my statement that as long as I can afford it I'll go. As for saying if you don't like it don't go, that's not an argument, that's a suggestion.

What about working class fans who would like to take their sons or daughters to the game but can't afford it because of Levy's pricing, The kind of people who love the club just as much as you or me, would you offer the same advice to them?

I'm alright jack so bollocks to you, is that the kind of mindset of the modern day Spurs fan?

2) Joe Lewis doesn't own us, he is majority shareholder of Enic, and Enic own us. They are seperate legal persons, and Tottenham Hotspur PLC is itself a seperate legal person. We couldn't really help the Berba and Keane sales, we named our price and unfortunately it was met, unlike Barry at Villa where Liverpool did not meet the price they set, and a year later he went for 2/3 of that price. Would you prefer we kept an unhappy Berba for a year and lost him for £20m? As for Carrick, all evidence suggests that we believed (wrongly) that we had a proven replacement in Zokora.

I'm not schooled on in's and out's of a plc but as I understand it if you're the majority shareholder you run the club, in effect you own the club and as long as you have enough of a majority in the boardroom you can do with it as you see fit.

As for selling our best players to the top 4 i would [FONT=&quot]personally [/FONT]like to a stance whereby we don't sell to our rivals because all that's going to happen is whenever we have a decent player on our hands he'll be taken off us by one of the big boys and the cycle starts over again.

A stance like that would go someway to convincing me that it's not all about the balance sheet with Levy.

3) Levy is not an employee of Enic, he is a shareholder and director of Enic.

I'm 99.9% sure that if you're a director of a company you're also an employee of the the company

Also, you say you believe he is ambitious, yet your original post on this topic was challenging my assertion towards Matt C after Matt had yet again called into question Levy's ambition. I'm not sure I understand your stance.

You seemed to me to be suggesting that Levy had spent £100 million on players when that's not the case, That was our money being spent by our chairman not the other way round.

 

[raf18]

you cant complain about levy and benjani until he is here. as far as i am concerned, levy has been great so far. made a profit on zokora

 

[BringBack_leGin]

What about working class fans who would like to take their sons or daughters to the game but can't afford it because of Levy's pricing, The kind of people who love the club just as much as you or me, would you offer the same advice to them?

I'm alright jack so bollocks to you, is that the kind of mindset of the modern day Spurs fan?

Putting words in my mouth again. All I said is that I am happy to pay the prices, and I don't care if you are not.

I'm not schooled on in's and out's of a plc but as I understand it if you're the majority shareholder you run the club, in effect you own the club and as long as you have enough of a majority in the boardroom you can do with it as you see fit.

Joe Lewis is not our majority shareholder, ENIC are. Joe Lewis happens to be their majority shareholder. The only decisions he can affect at ENIC are the ones that require resolutions to be made, and that won't involve anything to do with Spurs other than "do we buy more Spurs share" or "shall we sell our Spurs share". Their representative on the Spurs board is Daniel Levy, who also happens to be our chairman, and he will make his decisions on Spurs quite uninfluenced by ENIC.

As for selling our best players to the top 4 i would [FONT=&quot]personally [/FONT]like to a stance whereby we don't sell to our rivals because all that's going to happen is whenever we have a decent player on our hands he'll be taken off us by one of the big boys and the cycle starts over again.

Unfortunately this is where we and all the other non billionaire clubs stand in the league. Even Man U, for that matter, couldn't keep hold of their best player once a bigger club came sniffing.

A stance like that would go someway to convincing me that it's not all about the balance sheet with Levy.



I'm 99.9% sure that if you're a director of a company you're also an employee of the the company

No, a director of a company is 100% not an employee of a company, not unless he is given a service contract, something that would need a shareholder resolution to approve it. A Director who is also an employee would create a huge conflict of interest in a lot of circumstances when it came to voting at board meetings. Some Directors don't even (though most do) have shares, whereas most employees won't have shares unless there are special circumstances.

EG: Defoe and Lennon are employee's of THFC PLC. Levy is a director.


You seemed to me to be suggesting that Levy had spent £100 million on players when that's not the case, That was our money being spent by our chairman not the other way round.

Once again putting words in my mouth. It was plainly obvious to all but those with chips on their shoulders that my comments indicated that the club has spent that money during the time that Levy has presided over the throne. And no, they did not spend out money, they spent their money which they raised through ticket and merchandise sales to us, equity finance and debt finance. Spurs earn I estimate around £1.3m per game (if you break down season ticket prices as well into 19 seperate fixtures in the league), and we play on average about 25 home games a season including cup runs. That would not even cover all the players wages, never mind multi million pound transfer fees.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Both United and the Goons are highly geared due to thier extortionate debt. However, due to the masses of income they both receive (Arsenal on gate receipts alone) means their debt is easily serviceable hence why they have a solid credit rating.

I'm sorry but that is a load of media perpetrated nonsense. If the scum don't qualify for the CL they are up a messy creek without a paddle. If you don't believe me just listen to their largest shareholder. Their directors are a complete bunch of imbeciles who pandered to their fans and their manager to build a larger stadium, except they forgot along the way that the goal of that exercise was that they should have more money for players not less. If only we hadn't been cheated by some dodgy lasagne they would already be deep in the doo.

 

[mkkid]

Hey, if you don't want to pay the ticket prices, don't. We don't need this kind of pessimism at the lane anyway. Until it stops me being able to afford bread and milk, I'll pay, regardless of how ripped off I am. So what if the money came from tickets, merchandise, or from the fact that we trebled our money on both Keane and Berbatov while we made over 700% profit on Carrick? The fact is that Levy has the say on whether or not funds are available, not you, not me, not uncle Bob, and Levy made those funds available. If you want a chairman who lacks ambition, the very last place you need to look is White Hart Lane. In fact, our chairman's flaw might be just the opposite, that his ambition for our club leads to rash decisions (sackings of managers; overspending when it wasn't necessary on certain players) and that he needs to stem his ambition on occasion, step back and take in the bigger picture.

But then there'll always be your kind who would rather ignore all the good work and nit pick and whinge at every opportunity, regardless of how unjustified it is.

Jesus H Vishnu, you'd think that Levy had pissed in some posters cornflakes and run over their cats.

The problem with the British football fan, as long as I can pay, im alright, F**k the rest of the you, if this happened in Holland, Italy or Germany ,the fans would do something it. Ajax supporters groups, weren’t happy about the way ,the club is being run and they boycotted a first half of a game,last season.
Ticket price are a disgrace, last year, I cut my amount of away games in half,£49 pounds for Chelsea and £45 for West Ham,£42 for Man utd away all live on TV. No thanks!
So, we made a profit of 700% on Carrick and trebled the money on Berbatov and Keane, how poor was the team after, we Sold our best two forwards ,last year and basically ruined our season, but, hey we made a profit on them and then bought one of them back. To make us a laughing stock.
Every time, Utd or the bin dippers come ,calling, its seems, we are willing to sell.Sometimes, a chairman, must have the balls has to say No.
As for ambition, remember that when we have P Crouch up front next year.Id rather have Bent.

 

[hybridsoldier]

What about working class fans who would like to take their sons or daughters to the game but can't afford it because of Levy's pricing, The kind of people who love the club just as much as you or me, would you offer the same advice to them?

People harp on about Arsenal and Chelsea, how the hell can we compete if we dont charge the same ticket prices? We are in the same area and rightfully the club charge the same as the other big sides. Ticket revenue is a big deal and where I agree its excessive, its excessive as a whole in London, not just us. To be fair we pay alot of money, but we get to see players like Aaron Lennon, Dimitar Berbatov, Roman Pavlyuchenko, Luka Modric, Jermain Defoe, Robbie Keane, Jonathan Woodgate, Ledley King, Edgar Davids. These are expensive and well known players all across Europe.

You seemed to me to be suggesting that Levy had spent £100 million on players when that's not the case, That was our money being spent by our chairman not the other way round.

I dont get some of you, you say Levy is all about the balance sheet and finances etc etc, but then your saying here has spent alot of money. You call Levy tight then accuse him of spending OUR money. The £25m odd we raise from ticket sales like previously mentioned wouldn't even cover half the players wages for a year!

The TV money is the main income source for the Premier League. Also Levy secured 2 of the most lucrative sponsorship deals in the clubs history with Mansion and Puma. I mean the Mansion deal was in the regions of the Samsung/Chelski and AIG/Man U deals, it was MORE than Liverpool got from Carlsberg till their renegotiation!

I think Levy is a fantastic chairman, who is better is the Prem League? Randy Lerner is a name that comes up alot but the jury is still out there, its too soon and the Gareth Barry debacle makes me think thank God for Levy because we got big money for Berbatov - who lets not forget pushed hard for this move, he was no innocent bystander - while Villa pissed around and got a average fee for Barry for a season's service that was ultimately a flop in their CL pursuit.

Its no coincidence that when Levy became more hands on when Pleat and Hoddle got shifted that the has rocketed to being up there as a brand with the top sides. Everything from the players to the dodgy pony and hewlett packard sponsorship smelled of 2nd tier previously. Now I genuine feel like we are one of the top 6.

I really don't know what you guys want

 

[mkkid]

People harp on about Arsenal and Chelsea, how the hell can we compete if we dont charge the same ticket prices? We are in the same area and rightfully the club charge the same as the other big sides. Ticket revenue is a big deal and where I agree its excessive, its excessive as a whole in London, not just us. To be fair we pay alot of money, but we get to see players like Aaron Lennon, Dimitar Berbatov, Roman Pavlyuchenko, Luka Modric, Jermain Defoe, Robbie Keane, Jonathan Woodgate, Ledley King, Edgar Davids. These are expensive and well known players all across Europe.




I dont get some of you, you say Levy is all about the balance sheet and finances etc etc, but then your saying here has spent alot of money. You call Levy tight then accuse him of spending OUR money. The £25m odd we raise from ticket sales like previously mentioned wouldn't even cover half the players wages for a year!

The TV money is the main income source for the Premier League. Also Levy secured 2 of the most lucrative sponsorship deals in the clubs history with Mansion and Puma. I mean the Mansion deal was in the regions of the Samsung/Chelski and AIG/Man U deals, it was MORE than Liverpool got from Carlsberg till their renegotiation!

I think Levy is a fantastic chairman, who is better is the Prem League? Randy Lerner is a name that comes up alot but the jury is still out there, its too soon and the Gareth Barry debacle makes me think thank God for Levy because we got big money for Berbatov - who lets not forget pushed hard for this move, he was no innocent bystander - while Villa pissed around and got a average fee for Barry for a season's service that was ultimately a flop in their CL pursuit.

Its no coincidence that when Levy became more hands on when Pleat and Hoddle got shifted that the has rocketed to being up there as a brand with the top sides. Everything from the players to the dodgy pony and hewlett packard sponsorship smelled of 2nd tier previously. Now I genuine feel like we are one of the top 6.

I really don't know what you guys want

I want a good team out on the pitch,im certainly not interested in the Brand as for being in the top 6.
I think ,we will struggle for top 6, Everton are a team with pattern who will win more games than us.City will be up there along with Villa.
Aston Villa kepted Barry for another season and got 12 million, a player with one year left on his contact.That sounds like good busness to me.

Levy is a fanastic chairman, he has done well managing fans expectations
we are all being mugged off with champions league prices for mid table football.

 

[TheChosenOne]

This article by Robert Peston about Arsenal and debt appeared last week, some interesting fugures in there, however I don't believe for one moment that the shitbirds will struggle, the will be a selling club for the moment, i.e. Adeybarndoor to City.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/07/ive_obtained_a_copy_of.html

 

[spurslenny]

christ on a bike!!!! What the fuck is wrong you lot!!!??

Won't be satisfied until we're neck deep in debt or until we pay £7.50 for a Premier League ticket.

Can't you see the contradiction!!?? :bang:

Probably not, as all you want to do is bitch and moan for no other reason than that you can.

Get a fucking reallity check FFS!!! :evil:

 

[Azrael]

Hey, if you don't want to pay the ticket prices, don't. We don't need this kind of pessimism at the lane anyway. Until it stops me being able to afford bread and milk, I'll pay, regardless of how ripped off I am. So what if the money came from tickets, merchandise, or from the fact that we trebled our money on both Keane and Berbatov while we made over 700% profit on Carrick? The fact is that Levy has the say on whether or not funds are available, not you, not me, not uncle Bob, and Levy made those funds available. If you want a chairman who lacks ambition, the very last place you need to look is White Hart Lane. In fact, our chairman's flaw might be just the opposite, that his ambition for our club leads to rash decisions (sackings of managers; overspending when it wasn't necessary on certain players) and that he needs to stem his ambition on occasion, step back and take in the bigger picture.

But then there'll always be your kind who would rather ignore all the good work and nit pick and whinge at every opportunity, regardless of how unjustified it is.

Jesus H Vishnu, you'd think that Levy had pissed in some posters cornflakes and run over their cats.

I admire your optimism, but why is it wrong for a fan to raise questions over Levy's competance?

I love the club and dearly want us to succeed, but that doesn't mean I will bend over and take it in the arse every time I think Levy has made a mistake.

 

[mkkid]

8 years of Levy

average points per season 52

7 managers

3 DOF's

 

[hybridsoldier]

I want a good team out on the pitch,im certainly not interested in the Brand as for being in the top 6.
I think ,we will struggle for top 6, Everton are a team with pattern who will win more games than us.City will be up there along with Villa.
Aston Villa kepted Barry for another season and got 12 million, a player with one year left on his contact.That sounds like good busness to me.

Levy is a fanastic chairman, he has done well managing fans expectations
we are all being mugged off with champions league prices for mid table football.

Yeah but they got £12m from Man City, they are a 1-off who overinflate prices. It wasn't good business by Villa, nobody wanted to pay £18m-20m for Barry last summer (rightly so) so they lucked out and kept him as Barry didnt go kamikaze for a move like Berbatov did. They then got lucky that moneybags City walked along and handed them £12m, I think City would have as readily handed them £15m or £18m. A good piece of business could have been getting a £20m deal for Barry then going for Fellaini when he was at Liege or £15m-£18m. They didnt keep him because he wanted to stay, he just ended up staying because Liverpool didn't want to pay over the odds.

Well the brand is what draws fans, players and sponsors to the club, I feel we are top rate now, alot of times in the 90s and early 00s the newcomer to the game would quickly put us at the same size as a Fulham or Blackburn. Now we are recognised as top 6 on just about every level. Spurs under Sugar and early days under ENIC felt like when you go to those Hotels stuck in the 80s with dodgy carpet , dodgier wallpaper and a bellboy with a mullet.

Top 6 will be a struggle for everyone because there will be lots of competition, but I have full confidence the squad that we currently possess is a top 6 squad and it will come down to the fine margins. Most important is draws, sometimes losing a game in pursuit of a win is better than settling for a draw.

 

[spurslenny]

8 years of Levy

average points per season 52

7 managers

3 DOF's

would you care to outline your master plan that would see us return to the top table of English football, without spiralling into massive debt?

I'd be fascinated to hear it

 

[The Original Yiddster]

Nothing wrong with levys ambition to date but it must be remembered ambition and the pursuit of the Holy Grail in terms of regular competition at the top of the league with regular CL football is a never ending pursuit until achieved. With this is mind I give him a two word warning - 'Harry Redknapp'

 

[BringBack_leGin]

The problem with the British football fan, as long as I can pay, im alright, F**k the rest of the you, if this happened in Holland, Italy or Germany ,the fans would do something it. Ajax supporters groups, weren’t happy about the way ,the club is being run and they boycotted a first half of a game,last season.
Ticket price are a disgrace, last year, I cut my amount of away games in half,£49 pounds for Chelsea and £45 for West Ham,£42 for Man utd away all live on TV. No thanks!
So, we made a profit of 700% on Carrick and trebled the money on Berbatov and Keane, how poor was the team after, we Sold our best two forwards ,last year and basically ruined our season, but, hey we made a profit on them and then bought one of them back. To make us a laughing stock.
Every time, Utd or the bin dippers come ,calling, its seems, we are willing to sell.Sometimes, a chairman, must have the balls has to say No.
As for ambition, remember that when we have P Crouch up front next year.Id rather have Bent.

My view is in no way "i pay my way, f**k the rest of you". I'm the first to say that me being a season ticket holder in no way validates my opinion above others, and that it's an honour to go to Spurs. I was merely responding to his gripe about ticket prices.

I admire your optimism, but why is it wrong for a fan to raise questions over Levy's competance?

I love the club and dearly want us to succeed, but that doesn't mean I will bend over and take it in the arse every time I think Levy has made a mistake.

I'm in no way afraid to question Levy when it comes to certain things. I was very against his early sacking of Hoddle (who had 4 points from 6 games, not 4 from 10 like Jol or 2 from 8 like Ramos). I did not agree with sanctioning the transfers in of Bent or Bentley at high prices. I felt he cut his nose off to spite his face over the Berbatov saga.

However, I think he is a bloody good chairman and that it is plain moronic to accuse him of lacking ambition.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I assume some people still hanker for the Sugar years where his pockets got nicely filled and where he made nepotism a fine art.

 

[Legacy]

The problem with the British football fan, as long as I can pay, im alright, F**k the rest of the you, if this happened in Holland, Italy or Germany ,the fans would do something it. Ajax supporters groups, weren’t happy about the way ,the club is being run and they boycotted a first half of a game,last season.
Ticket price are a disgrace, last year, I cut my amount of away games in half,£49 pounds for Chelsea and £45 for West Ham,£42 for Man utd away all live on TV. No thanks!
So, we made a profit of 700% on Carrick and trebled the money on Berbatov and Keane, how poor was the team after, we Sold our best two forwards ,last year and basically ruined our season, but, hey we made a profit on them and then bought one of them back. To make us a laughing stock.
Every time, Utd or the bin dippers come ,calling, its seems, we are willing to sell.Sometimes, a chairman, must have the balls has to say No.
As for ambition, remember that when we have P Crouch up front next year.Id rather have Bent.

Are you asthmatic? The amount of breaks you put into your sentences with commas makes feel like I'm constantly catching my breath when I read it.

 

[dontcallme]

Levy is far from criticism but many of the anti-Levy posts simply aren't well thought-out. I get the feeling these people would criticise whoever was in charge.

 

[sloth]

Thanks BBLG, I knew that and I know it's not ITK, but with their new stadium debts, how could Arsenal have a better credit rating than us?

Both United and the Goons are highly geared due to thier extortionate debt. However, due to the masses of income they both receive (Arsenal on gate receipts alone) means their debt is easily serviceable hence why they have a solid credit rating.

people who borrow generally have a better credit rating than those who don't - as long as they make the repayments.

That could well be part of it -using credit & always making repayments gets you a better credit rating than not actually using credit

I guess a massive part of your credit rating is determined by the likelihood of you getting relegated from the Premier League where all the money is to be made. As far as the top four are concerned it's probably pretty remote and so they'll be seen as good for their debts.

 

[SpurSince57]

Yeah but they got £12m from Man City, they are a 1-off who overinflate prices. It wasn't good business by Villa, nobody wanted to pay £18m-20m for Barry last summer (rightly so) so they lucked out and kept him as Barry didnt go kamikaze for a move like Berbatov did. They then got lucky that moneybags City walked along and handed them £12m, I think City would have as readily handed them £15m or £18m. A good piece of business could have been getting a £20m deal for Barry then going for Fellaini when he was at Liege or £15m-£18m. They didnt keep him because he wanted to stay, he just ended up staying because Liverpool didn't want to pay over the odds.

Well the brand is what draws fans, players and sponsors to the club, I feel we are top rate now, alot of times in the 90s and early 00s the newcomer to the game would quickly put us at the same size as a Fulham or Blackburn. Now we are recognised as top 6 on just about every level. Spurs under Sugar and early days under ENIC felt like when you go to those Hotels stuck in the 80s with dodgy carpet , dodgier wallpaper and a bellboy with a mullet.

Top 6 will be a struggle for everyone because there will be lots of competition, but I have full confidence the squad that we currently possess is a top 6 squad and it will come down to the fine margins. Most important is draws, sometimes losing a game in pursuit of a win is better than settling for a draw.

That, we could have matched. What we couldn't match was the reported £130k a week—£27m over a four-year contract—world-class superstar wages for a player who's good, but not that good. And Adebayor on £150k a week? Mad, or what?

Anyone who thinks we can pay that kind of whack has lost all touch with reality.