AVB - things i can't get my head around !

[ItsBoris]

Not at all, we didn't bring in AVB because we were left high and dry, we brought him in as an improvement on the previous regime. Us and Liverpool need to be judged in the same way as far as managers go. What makes us different is that their manager was backed in the transfer window where as ours wasn't. They are as bad as they were results wise, and we are similar.

I think AVB has improved us slightly in defence, we at least look more organised even if we do concede more goals. But as an attacking force we are blunter than a rubber duck. And that's with Bale in the side too.

Overall, we've kept our heads at the same level, which is fine provided we finish that way.

I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that after 32 games last season we had scored 56 goals compared to 55 this season. So as an attacking force we are just as 'blunt' as last season. But at this stage last season we were in the middle of a very poor run of form, so I think we'll probably score more goals overall this season. That's without a 17 goal contribution from Ade, as well as selling VDV and Modric who were our main creative players.

So I think AVB's done a good job in getting far less creative players to score just as many goals as last season. We definitely had more attacking talent last season so it's hard to argue that he hasn't done a good job. With the same players as last season I think we might be up in 2nd place this season since AVB's system is more effective than what Harry offered.

Also this stage last season we were on 59 points so we're only 1 point off. So I think AVB's done an effective job getting a less talented squad to the same place.

 

[rio bryan]

There's a lot of bullshit to take in here, but i'll have a go at answering some of it for you.

At the beginning of the season he plays Friedel over Lloris as he don't want to upset Freidel.
Well had he thrown Lloris into the deep end and Lloris had made a cock up then it would have set back his place in the team massively. The way AVB handled this was perfect IMO, despite pressure from the media.

Now he constantly changes the centre back pairing and the only reason i can see is that he don't want to upset anyone, if there's another someone please let me know
There's a couple of reasons here. One being injuries - we've had injuries to: Kaboul (long term), Dawson, Gallas and Caulker this season. As well as Ekotto (pushing Verts from CB to LB). Another reason is rotation. We've had a lot of games in Europe and so what has been happening is that the CB's have been changing from one game to the next even if they are the same pairing in the PL as we have switched them for the european games in between. And finally AVB is trying to work out the best formation and players for his style of play (high back line that pushes up) and so of course as a new manager he will be experimenting a bit in his first season with pairings.

Dempsey instead of Holtby is another one.
Holtby is new to the league and so there is a period of adpatation and there are times when playing Dempsey makes more tactical sense.

As for the overall squad balance:
5 central defenders - that's the correct number to have IMO
1 left back - with two covering players, seems ok to me
No left winger - agreed but this no doubt will be dealt with in the next available transfer window - Bale has only been played in this new role mostly since December so was hard to foresee this issue occruing and the Jan window is hard to find the right player to replace him at LW.
One right winger - cover is needed and if there's one mistake in all you've pointed out it is probably loaning Townsend who could provide useful cover on both flanks, but he is probably developing better by being at QPR
Four attacking central midfiled players - Sigurdsson and Holtby both are, Holtby not just this though, he's more of a flexible player. Dempsey is not an attacking CM, he is an advanced AMF or a CF who plays in the hole. Bale is a bit of an enigma and falls into that odd category of 'second striker / free reign to do what he wants' like with Ronaldo/Messi.
Two average forwards. - i'd actually say one average and one shit, i'll let you decide which way round you want to call that

My main gripe is the defence, apart from Kabul we have only had the occassional injury so rotating has been the main reason for him pissing around with it.
Why does a defence need to be rotated ( if he wants to rotate then do it in the cup comp's) when they do a lot less running, than midfielders who incidently havn't been rotated !
Out of 29 league games since Dawson came back the most we have played a central partnership together is 9 games, no wonder we have let in the most goals out of the top 6.
It wouldn't be so bad if all 4 were of equal quality but Gallas and Caulks have looked well below par.

You say :1 left back - with two covering players, seems ok to me

Neither of whom are natural left back's and both have looked uncomfortable playing there plus Verts playing there weakens the central defence.Actually another cock up in loaning out Rose.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that after 32 games last season we had scored 56 goals compared to 55 this season. So as an attacking force we are just as 'blunt' as last season. But at this stage last season we were in the middle of a very poor run of form, so I think we'll probably score more goals overall this season. That's without a 17 goal contribution from Ade, as well as selling VDV and Modric who were our main creative players.

So I think AVB's done a good job in getting far less creative players to score just as many goals as last season. We definitely had more attacking talent last season so it's hard to argue that he hasn't done a good job. With the same players as last season I think we might be up in 2nd place this season since AVB's system is more effective than what Harry offered.

Also this stage last season we were on 59 points so we're only 1 point off. So I think AVB's done an effective job getting a less talented squad to the same place.

Kind of my whole point though, I don't think that's the case. You factor in losing Modric, VdV who people seem to be crazily on the fence about, then add in the fact we've got Bale on another level than he was last year and there really is no difference.

Personally I think people talk up AVB more than they need to because they are trying to cover their backs due to their criticisms of the previous regime.

I'll take it as it comes, I'm glad I don't have to listen to Redknapp on a weekly basis anymore, as a bloke he isn't half the smart and intelligent soul that AVB is, but if you're honest about it, are we any better or is AVB doing any better than we did last year? No. Pretty clear really, we're turning in as many dogshit performances as we are good ones, similar to last year in many respects.

But as I said, for me he's not under any pressure, even if we finish 6th, I'll be disappointed, but I want him around for the long term. We're never going to win the league with Levy in charge, but he is always going to keep you on your toes and keep things interesting, legalising touting through the new ticket system will be something to look forward to next year for sure!

 

[ItsBoris]

Kind of my whole point though, I don't think that's the case. You factor in losing Modric, VdV who people seem to be crazily on the fence about, then add in the fact we've got Bale on another level than he was last year and there really is no difference.

Personally I think people talk up AVB more than they need to because they are trying to cover their backs due to their criticisms of the previous regime.

I'll take it as it comes, I'm glad I don't have to listen to Redknapp on a weekly basis anymore, as a bloke he isn't half the smart and intelligent soul that AVB is, but if you're honest about it, are we any better or is AVB doing any better than we did last year? No. Pretty clear really, we're turning in as many dogshit performances as we are good ones, similar to last year in many respects.

But as I said, for me he's not under any pressure, even if we finish 6th, I'll be disappointed, but I want him around for the long term. We're never going to win the league with Levy in charge, but he is always going to keep you on your toes and keep things interesting, legalising touting through the new ticket system will be something to look forward to next year for sure!

But we've got Adebayor on not anywhere near the same level. So those two kind of cancel out. If you add Bale and Ade's goals and assists from this season vs last season I am certain they are lower this season.

SB I think 90% of observers would agree that we lost a lot of attacking talent over the summer. Our attacking 5 players in terms of skill were on another level last season. I think the current attacking 5 though will grow into a stronger unit than last year's with the addition of Holtby but they certainly aren't there yet.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

But we've got Adebayor on not anywhere near the same level. So those two kind of cancel out. If you add Bale and Ade's goals and assists from this season vs last season I am certain they are lower this season.

SB I think 90% of observers would agree that we lost a lot of attacking talent over the summer. Our attacking 5 players in terms of skill were on another level last season. I think the current attacking 5 though will grow into a stronger unit than last year's with the addition of Holtby but they certainly aren't there yet.

Who do you attribute that to? Because this an exact opportunity where people cover their backs and say it's all Adebayor's fault, but he's clearly not a happy bunny.

I think as an attacking talent we lost VdV, who else? Saha?

 

[ItsBoris]

Who do you attribute that to? Because this an exact opportunity where people cover their backs and say it's all Adebayor's fault, but he's clearly not a happy bunny.

I think as an attacking talent we lost VdV, who else? Saha?

Modric, obviously.

Well JJetset has said that Adebayor and AVB don't see eye to eye, but we know Adebayor has it in him and I don't think you can really blame AVB if Ade doesn't have the will to play his best every game. And anyway you mentioned Bale being a better player in support of your argument, so I can mention Ade being a worse player in support of mine.

Btw Ade had falling outs with Wenger and Mancini as well so he has some form for that kind of thing. To suggest AVB is at all to blame for it is silly.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Modric, obviously.

Well JJetset has said that Adebayor and AVB don't see eye to eye, but we know Adebayor has it in him and I don't think you can really blame AVB if Ade doesn't have the will to play his best every game. And anyway you mentioned Bale being a better player in support of your argument, so I can mention Ade being a worse player in support of mine.

Btw Ade had falling outs with Wenger and Mancini as well so he has some form for that kind of thing. To suggest AVB is at all to blame for it is silly.

It is, and where did I say that?

Didn't Adebayor only fall out with them when he wanted a move though?

Modric as an attacking force? Stop it.

 

[mpickard2087]

My main gripe is the defence, apart from Kabul we have only had the occassional injury so rotating has been the main reason for him pissing around with it.
Why does a defence need to be rotated ( if he wants to rotate then do it in the cup comp's) when they do a lot less running, than midfielders who incidently havn't been rotated !
Out of 29 league games since Dawson came back the most we have played a central partnership together is 9 games, no wonder we have let in the most goals out of the top 6.
It wouldn't be so bad if all 4 were of equal quality but Gallas and Caulks have looked well below par.

You say :1 left back - with two covering players, seems ok to me

Neither of whom are natural left back's and both have looked uncomfortable playing there plus Verts playing there weakens the central defence.Actually another cock up in loaning out Rose.

Maybe because we have a number of options in defence that are roughly similar in quality and all prone to dips in form, even Vertonghen went through a winter blip where he had average games. Making rotation easy and sometimes necessary in order to find the best combinations.

In midfield we don't really have the choice. First half of the season its Sandro/Dembele, now its Parker/Dembele. Who else do you put in to cover for them? Big step down. For the rest, we are heavily reliant on Lennon and Bale for pace. Townsend maybe could have filled the role but it was more beneficial in my opinion for him to play every single week so the loan was the better option and judging on his performances so far we will reap the benefits in the longer term. The other positions though (AMC, Striker) have been chopped and changed looking for the right combination.

 

[ItsBoris]

It is, and where did I say that?

Didn't Adebayor only fall out with them when he wanted a move though?

Modric as an attacking force? Stop it.

We wouldn't have scored anywhere near the number of goals we did last season without Modric. Did you ever watch us play without him? We were dreadful.

When I say he's an attacking player we lost, I don't mean just in terms of goals or assists, Modric stitched our attacking play together and he was probably our most important attacking player last season.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

We wouldn't have scored anywhere near the number of goals we did last season without Modric. Did you ever watch us play without him? We were dreadful.

When I say he's an attacking player we lost, I don't mean just in terms of goals or assists, Modric stitched our attacking play together and he was probably our most important attacking player last season.

Sorry but that is a complete fabrication. Yes I watched us with him, and without him as well. I understand your point about knitting the play together but you are guilty over hyping his general affect on attacking play to make the point.

 

[rio bryan]

Maybe because we have a number of options in defence that are roughly similar in quality and all prone to dips in form, even Vertonghen went through a winter blip where he had average games. Making rotation easy and sometimes necessary in order to find the best combinations.

In midfield we don't really have the choice. First half of the season its Sandro/Dembele, now its Parker/Dembele. Who else do you put in to cover for them? Big step down. For the rest, we are heavily reliant on Lennon and Bale for pace. Townsend maybe could have filled the role but it was more beneficial in my opinion for him to play every single week so the loan was the better option and judging on his performances so far we will reap the benefits in the longer term. The other positions though (AMC, Striker) have been chopped and changed looking for the right combination.

You don't get it do you, you need to play a settled back 5 to get the best out of them, listen to some of the ex pros, and as for "similar in quality " have you seen the amount of mistake Caulks and Gallas have made.
Some stats of when the centre defenders are playing :
Verts 12 games 14 goals conceded
Gallas 13 games 20 goals conceded
Dawson 17 games 17 goals conceded
Caulks 16 games 21 goals conceded

When Caulks and gallas playing together 7 games 12 goals conceded

Let me ask you this question, do you think we would have conceded more or less goals with a settled defence ?

 

[ItsBoris]

Sorry but that is a complete fabrication. Yes I watched us with him, and without him as well. I understand your point about knitting the play together but you are guilty over hyping his general affect on attacking play to make the point.

I don't think I'm overhyping him but it doesn't really matter to be honest I don't really see what we're disagreeing about.

 

[dontcallme]

You don't get it do you, you need to play a settled back 5 to get the best out of them, listen to some of the ex pros, and as for "similar in quality " have you seen the amount of mistake Caulks and Gallas have made.
Some stats of when the centre defenders are playing :
Verts 12 games 14 goals conceded
Gallas 13 games 20 goals conceded
Dawson 17 games 17 goals conceded
Caulks 16 games 21 goals conceded

When Caulks and gallas playing together 7 games 12 goals conceded

Let me ask you this question, do you think we would have conceded more or less goals with a settled defence ?

It's not about not getting it, it's about having a different point of view.

We have had injuries to Kaboul and BAE for most of the season.

We could have played a settled back four. This would involved either playing Vertonghen left back all season in a position where we don't get the best out of him or Naughton left back who simply doesn't look good enough, especially at left back.

Or AVB could play the players best suited to the opposition. Playing Vertonghen left back when playing very physical opposition makes sense but then we don't want him there when coming up against quick, skilful wingers as Naughton is a better fit for that situation.

I think AVB has used the squad intelligently in that respect.

If Kaboul gets back to full fitness and we sort out a natural, long-term left back then I'd hope to see a settled back four. Verotnghen and Kaboul is potentially one of the best centre back pairings in the Prem.

But this season with 2 injuries in defence and no one really suited to playing left back it has made sense to change it suit the opposition.

 

[mpickard2087]

You don't get it do you, 1. you need to play a settled back 5 to get the best out of them, listen to some of the ex pros, 2. and as for "similar in quality " have you seen the amount of mistake Caulks and Gallas have made.
3. Some stats of when the centre defenders are playing :
Verts 12 games 14 goals conceded
Gallas 13 games 20 goals conceded
Dawson 17 games 17 goals conceded
Caulks 16 games 21 goals conceded

When Caulks and gallas playing together 7 games 12 goals conceded

4. Let me ask you this question, do you think we would have conceded more or less goals with a settled defence ?

1. Says who? Oh, some ex pro's... just because it's the dominant way of thinking doesn't make it the only way. What if you want to counter specific threats? (As we have seen from AVB at times this season).

2. These two are the scapegoats though. Dawson is 'Mr Tottenham', Vertonghen does good things and looks stylish, but does equally as many bad things as well, so they get overlooked and given a free pass. As I said, every one of our defence (including fullbacks as well), are prone to mistakes and there isn't a lot between them. So then, maybe AVB is going on form, you play well and your in the team. Have a dip and you're on the bench (as we have seen second half of the season with Caulker).

3. Not sure what this is meant to show really, players who play in the odd blip game (Scum, Chelsea games) will reflect badly, but that's only two games. Plus, I presume this doesn't take into account Vertonghen at left back for example and what he may or may not have done in that position.

4. We're Tottenham, we'll always find ways to concede goals. I do get what AVB is trying to do. Personally I see the merits in putting together a clear well coached defensive system that has more emphasis on the whole team than relying on the ability of an individual. Get a whole team that defends well, and everyone in the squad knowing what is required of them, and you can drop different personnel into it and have a seamless transition ideally.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I don't think I'm overhyping him but it doesn't really matter to be honest I don't really see what we're disagreeing about.

That Modric was our most important attacking player...

 

[brasil_spur]

You say :1 left back - with two covering players, seems ok to me

Neither of whom are natural left back's and both have looked uncomfortable playing there plus Verts playing there weakens the central defence.Actually another cock up in loaning out Rose.

I don't think we had a choice with Rose though, it was either loan him out or sell him for a fairly nominal fee - which we would all be moaning about now. At least this summer we can make a decision on whether to play him as regular or semi-regular first teamer or sell him for a sensible fee and ROI.

 

[rio bryan]

1. Says who? Oh, some ex pro's... just because it's the dominant way of thinking doesn't make it the only way. What if you want to counter specific threats? (As we have seen from AVB at times this season).

2. These two are the scapegoats though. Dawson is 'Mr Tottenham', Vertonghen does good things and looks stylish, but does equally as many bad things as well, so they get overlooked and given a free pass. As I said, every one of our defence (including fullbacks as well), are prone to mistakes and there isn't a lot between them. So then, maybe AVB is going on form, you play well and your in the team. Have a dip and you're on the bench (as we have seen second half of the season with Caulker).

3. Not sure what this is meant to show really, players who play in the odd blip game (Scum, Chelsea games) will reflect badly, but that's only two games. Plus, I presume this doesn't take into account Vertonghen at left back for example and what he may or may not have done in that position.

4. We're Tottenham, we'll always find ways to concede goals. I do get what AVB is trying to do. Personally I see the merits in putting together a clear well coached defensive system that has more emphasis on the whole team than relying on the ability of an individual. Get a whole team that defends well, and everyone in the squad knowing what is required of them, and you can drop different personnel into it and have a seamless transition ideally.

You can defend Avb as much as you like but what he is trying to do isn't working ! as seen by the amount of goals we have conceded.
Incidently you didn't answer the question, do you think we would have conceded more or less goals with a settled defence ?
a one word answer will suffice.

 

[mpickard2087]

You can defend Avb as much as you like but what he is trying to do isn't working ! as seen by the amount of goals we have conceded.
Incidently you didn't answer the question, do you think we would have conceded more or less goals with a settled defence ?
a one word answer will suffice.

As in my opinion all our defensive options are prone to errors whoever we pick, we'd have conceded pretty much the same amount.

 

[parklane1]

That Modric was our most important attacking player...

He is the one player we really miss, or do you disagree?

 

[Spurs_Bear]

He is the one player we really miss, or do you disagree?

We really miss his type of player, yes I agree.